making spies different

[Ahriman]

Convert City is far too cheap, too likely to succeed and/or shouldn't be available at all. For ~400 EPs I was able to bribe a size 19 city with 79% probability.

Another example: 225 (or 291 depending on which entry you believe) to bribe the Ixian *capital*.

 

[Slvynn]

I agree - EP costs need serious nerf and fix - great cost increase and failure chance.
i think something like x5 ep cost and each 1 pop increase failure chance by 10%, with cities of pop 10 and more are impossible to convert. (as david suggested)
Capitals should not be able to convert as well.

 

[Ahriman]

Honestly, I lean towards "should not be in the game at all".

Its too powerful an effect to happen with nothing you can do about it. Even reducing the probability down isn't good, because then it just becomes hit or miss random, which isn't much fun either.

So if it stays in, it needs to cost like 10x as much.

The civ-wide anarchy is also too cheap. I can easily imagine chaining that to keep a civ helpless; for 300 EPs, you can causes thousands of lost commerce and hammer production worth of damage.

Also, when you buy the city, you keep all its culture producers intact, and don't lose any buildings.

 

[Slvynn]

Yeah x7-10 even cost and very hight failure rate
and +10 % failure rate per 1 pop, stacking with initial failure.
for civ vwide anarchy it should cost x7-10 at least!!!
also i will be ok if it will be removed - culture spread with current culture mechanic is powerfull tool too

 

[davidlallen]

Please try making the cost 10x, and see if you think it is OK. You can also decrease the success rate with the iDifficultyFactor in the xml. The capability for both of these missions was in vanilla, but there are no vanilla missions for them. Perhaps they could not find a good cost for them. I can take them back out; I think it was worth an experiment. Is there any way we can make them useful?

 

[Slvynn]

I dont know to make those changes - it will be cool if you'll make small patch to test.
I dont like Anarchy stuff.
I am ok with city conversion, but with that pop depending mechanics (-10% sucess rate per each pop city have , stacking with initial chance) and greatly increased costs.

Also if you do can you please change Margot LH Flavor for culture and fix KH line (again i dont know how to do that)?
Or perhaps lets wait abit and release another incremental patch, may be i'll manage to do some fixes to art/ new art in those days

BG are even too powerfull without those missions. Last game i've converted couple of cities which were 3-4 tiles from my own city with ease.

 

[davidlallen]

I dont know to make those changes - it will be cool if you'll make small patch to test.

Sorry, I thought I had given the details. Find file gameinfo/civ4espionagemissioninfo.xml. Search in it to find "Convert City", search below that for iCost. The value is 300 now; change it to 3000 to make it more expensive, or -1 to disable it altogether.

Also if you do can you please change Margot LH Flavor for culture and fix KH line (again i dont know how to do that)?

I'm not sure what you want to do with Margo exactly, but you can look in the modiki XML reference for civilizations/civ4leaderheadinfos.xml, and find some information there. For KH, do you want to reduce the combat benefit from 25% to 15%? Please see units/civ4promotioninfos.xml, search for "Inspired I", and below that find iCombatPercent. Change the 25 to 15.

 

[Slvynn]

Sorry but i cant do that because i am also playing sucession game I'f i'll do those changes i will be not compatible - so atm i am restricted to what we have for now but it will be glad if you'll do that changes and test it.
(I may do them perhaps with changing back backup files for SG, we'll see)

 

[davidlallen]

Is there any way to make the Force Friendship display a diplomacy modifier of "We have Revered Mother agents working to our advantage" or something similar, or do all events have to have the "past events have proved your good nature" message?

It's hard to trace out what uses that field of the diplomacy summary. I can change it but it might be triggered by something else as well. I will have to figure out how to add more fields. I will put that on the to-do list.

 

[davidlallen]

Sorry but i cant do that because i am also playing sucession game

I guess if I made a patch, you wouldn't use it. I will put that on the list of things to do.

 

[Ahriman]

It's hard to trace out what uses that field of the diplomacy summary. I can change it but it might be triggered by something else as well. I will have to figure out how to add more fields. I will put that on the to-do list.

Ok, its low priority.

I guess my point with the city capture is that either:
a) The AI won't use it effectively, in which case it advantages the human player, OR
b) The AI will use it effectively, in which case the human player instantly has entire developed cities taken away from them - including Wonders all kinds of defenses, etc, and there is nothing they can really do to defend against it. This isn't fun.

The anarchy isn't too powerful if it costs enough.
Maybe make it base cost *5, for now?

 

[davidlallen]

the human player instantly has entire developed cities taken away from them - including Wonders all kinds of defenses, etc, and there is nothing they can really do to defend against it. This isn't fun.

Losing stuff is never fun. But, espionage has counters too. Post spies in your own cities. Keep spies in the BG cities so that you can run counterespionage missions. Since you don't lose the defending stack when a city flips and the BG doesn't have industry to build defenders fast, use your new *attacking* stack to take it back.

 

[Ahriman]

Post spies in your own cities

Are we sure that has an actual effect? I'm not certain.

Keep spies in the BG cities so that you can run counterespionage missions.

How will you know when to run counterespionage?

use your new *attacking* stack to take it back.

Which means you have to:
a) Declare war
b) Lose all the culture buildings and several of the other buildings when you capture the city.

 

[davidlallen]

Are we sure that has an actual effect? I'm not certain. ... How will you know when to run counterespionage?

Neither of us is experts at using espionage. But, the pedia entry for spy says "Helps Thwart Rival Spies". Also, if your enemies are using espionage, you will also use some espionage; then the espionage screen allows you to track their espionage spending relative to yours. If you see BG has a significant lead in EP, then you had better run some counterespionage.

Which means you have to: a) Declare war

I recall this was a comment about the Loki unit in FFH at one point. He also has a city flip ability. It does seem that BG city flip should have some diplomatic fallout. Perhaps a -4 diplo penalty, "You converted one of our cities!" and/or a high likelihood that the loser will declare war.

I haven't experimented much with this yet. But, it seems there are three city locations that would have different effects: (a) your city which borders a BG territory, (b) your city which is deep in your own territory, (c) your city which has weak culture but doesn't border BG territory. Which ones of these will culture flip back on their own? (a) probably shouldn't. (b) probably should. (c) seems like a poor target for the BG in the first place, except to make you mad, but I guess with "yearning for the motherland" it would probably flip back eventually also. So you might not need to declare war.

Is there some other way we can use this effect, which is flavorful and not too painful? That is the point of adding this type of experimental feature, to get suggestions on how to make it work better.

 

[Ahriman]

Neither of us is experts at using espionage

Very true!

But, the pedia entry for spy says "Helps Thwart Rival Spies".

I interpreted this as just meaning that they have a counterespionage mission.

If you see BG has a significant lead in EP, then you had better run some counterespionage.

The problem with counterespionage (the mission) is that if the enemy *isn't* running any missions against you for the next 10 turns, you are actually now in a weaker position for any future missions than you were before, because you have spent EPs against that player on the useless counterespionage mission, so enemy spy actions against you are now cheaper.

Counterespionage is very poorly designed.

I recall this was a comment about the Loki unit in FFH at one point. He also has a city flip ability.

Keep in mind that Loki can flip only cities with 0 culture, not mutliple thousands of culture powerhouses.

It does seem that BG city flip should have some diplomatic fallout. Perhaps a -4 diplo penalty, "You converted one of our cities!"

I'd support this, if we kept city-flips.

But, it seems there are three city locations that would have different effects:

Despite Sylvnn's reports, I'm not seeing cultural city-flips, cities are just too spaced out.

Also, converted cities are converted with their economy and infrastructure completely intact, so its pretty easy to have them build culture (or temporarily flip your culture slider) and have the city expand a couple of levels in only a few turns, which stops any flips.

Is there some other way we can use this effect, which is flavorful and not too painful?

I think plunging a city into civil disorder for many turns, or plunging a civ into anarchy/uprising are probably more flavorful and easier to balance. I can't really see the Bene Gesserit managing to convince a city to abandon its House.
I guess the actual way of interpreting this would be as a political move; they manage to convince the Emperor/Landsraad to reassign the fief ownership of a particular city to that of the BG's proxy house (ie to the BG player).
Kinda like the 19th century Great Powers assigning colonial rights to various territories between each other. That kind of thing is definitely in the book (how the Atreides are assigned Arrakis instead of Caladaan).

Maybe it would be ok if it:
a) It were very expensive in EPs
b) We could give some kind of flavor indication of what was happening. Maybe rather than "convert city" it would be "reassign fief" or something.
c) Capitals were immune
d) There was some way to prevent it. Eg: the mission cost scales more with relative EP investments, so you could maintain a block by having enough EPs against the BG player. Or it couldn't happen to any city with a spy unit in it. Or the cost of doing it was heavily increasing in the culture level of the city.

 

[Slvynn]

nonono
there is offence towards AI i seeing - AI never will be good enough to supress players culture in any costs - i flipped 4 citis last game, 2 of them very earlt by 4rth !! ring of my city, veeery early

I played large map too but with bit increased landmass.
BG are really powerfull at this, and even if it not flipped - old new culture rings were unbalanced and by this way slightest effort of culture and you just cut rivals city from necessary water sources. AI will never use it effectively, so that change inclined towards balancing efects and making it less "influencing". It is still easy to take far spice and such.
Please understand that there should be some balance and i also thing that increments we did in last edition are perfect.
I just feel it right now - there is some progression which is working quite well - there are limitation of civ engine, and bfc figure - and thas how things working in this engine - making those "above vanilla legendary" rings poping too soon means disasterous things if culture spreads by land. People play different maps, smalls, standards, hight land mass, low landmass. Game should be balanced in all cases. Thats a big loss for a mod if it can be played only on scattered island like arrakis setting. there are other settings, and when cities share landmass - efects of new culture rings hold too much power.

 

[Ahriman]

nonono
there is offence towards AI i seeing - AI never will be good enough to supress players culture in any costs

I don't understand this.

2 of them very earlt by 4rth !! ring of my city, veeery early

The 4th ring in the current patch is 1500 culture on epic speed.
I'd hardly call that very early. It is going to take a long time for you to have a *border* city with the AI get 1500 culture, unless you really really overpacked the number of AI players and had them start on top of each other.

AI will never use it effectively

The AI builds culture-producing buildings just fine. How will it never use culture?

Please understand that there should be some balance

While you may intend for comments like this to not have any actual meaning, they make it sound like you think that people reading your comments do not believe that there should be any balance. Thus, readers are likely to get annoyed or dismiss anything you have to say.

 

[Slvynn]

Its very easy to flip enemy tiles. AI will never will emphasize JUST culture. (in focused aim to flip enemy tiles as much as possible)
I mean only culture.
If done well over-focusing on culture with certain civs will make huge harm to your rivals which are next to you. With new rings there can be unbelievable flips (for vanilla). You can harm AI easilly cutting its production tiles with 4rth ring, and yes, its easy to do 1500 culture is nothing monument +2, library +2 theater hall +2 creative +2 temple +1 . Also, if you know there are multipliers - earlier built monument increases its culture output. So same monument if build early will be +4 culture. then there are specialists. Multiplied outputs will produce 1500 in no time, and there will be a flip, or heavy damage to enemy tiles.

If you take your 2nd - 3rd city there by turn 160 will be 4rth ring with any problem. Turn 160 is early game .

While you may intend for comments like this to not have any actual meaning, they make it sound like you think that people reading your comments do not believe that there should be any balance. Thus, readers are likely to get annoyed or dismiss anything you have to say

No, that is your interpretation, and thats your own issue. There is also another one - second - you dismissing things of reasons created by 1st issue. Then there is a third - when one say things like that probably he insisting that current mechanics are unbalanced, and perhaps too tired after job to chew every detail, also because that things are quite plain for him - there are still alot of cases of sharing landmass, and there are still exist problem with unability of AI to be cowardly focused on culture emphasis. It will build buildings, but in its own, flavor adjusted queues. That means most of AIs are easy to beat (when they too near) just by using exploit of OVER-empasizing culture in border cities. AI is still have understanding of tile mechanics from BTS - its how Firaxis and Sid created it - BFC cross , culture levels. Too big deviation means that AI wont be ready for such change and will not perform proper. Culture became much more powerfull thing - but AI dont know that. It does not know that it should over-emphasizing culture in certain cases - and if it will do it will take free cities, or, at least, harm rivals's cities with slight effort. This brings another solution - some uncertain SDK changes - but i think its easier just to adjust numbers than to change SDK.

 

[God-Emperor]

But, the pedia entry for spy says "Helps Thwart Rival Spies".

I interpreted this as just meaning that they have a counterespionage mission.

As I understand it (which may not be all that well)...

In regular BtS a spy sitting in a city has the same effect as the building that provides epionage protection (Security Bureau).

For the Security Bureau it is controlled by the "<iEspionageDefense>50</iEspionageDefense>" setting. In DW the Assassin Bureau has the same effect

For the spy it is not clear - it is either set directly by the bSpy tag or by the bCounterSpy tag. However it is done, apparently in regular BtS the spy provides the same 50% defense that the SB does. I've seen this mentioned in various places in the forums, and it does appear to be correct that it provides some defense (how much is not so clear): If you are being plagued by spies, putting spies in your cities without security bureaus and on your vital resources can help some.

From what I've read, the spy and the Security Bureau do not add together. Only the higher value defender is used - but they are the same so it doesn't matter which it is.

In DW the spy can have promotions that increase its counterespionage (thanks to the Super Spies mod comp). This seems to be controlled by the iInterceptChange tag when applied to a spy (the same tag as used to change the chance to intercept air attacks for other units). This is used by the Security line of spy promotions. Because of this, in DW stationing a spy in a city that has a building with iEspionageDefense set to 50 - which would be the Assassin Bureau - should still be useful if the spy has at least Security I. The Mentat Espionage, and Mentat Espionage Sapho, buildings have this set to higher values (100 and 150) which should make stationing a spy in that city useless.

I have no idea what happens if you have two building with iEspionageDefense values. Do they add or is only the higher value used? I don't know. Two spies is supposedly not better than one spy. If so, then spies don't add to each other. I would also guess that buildings don't add.

Most of this is based on regular BtS - the SuperSpy mod could have changed the behavior.

 

[Ahriman]

G-E, very interesting, thanks for this.

Do we know if spies or buildings project an "aura" of defensiveness? Eg I often have spies caught out in open terrain in an enemy territory. Is this just a random change (affected by relative EP spending?) or is it affected by the presence of spies locally?