Making the Doviello more unique

[xienwolf]

Can't quite do "Peace with Animals" unless they get made into a complete Civ of their own. Right now they fight everyone because they have Hidden Nationality, which isn't easy to make exceptions to.


If the Doviello get a flat yield for all tiles, regardless of improvements/features/terrain, and can only work 1 ring, then you will know precisely what the maximum population/production is for each city, and can balance around that idea. It will be impossible to get a city which pumps out a unit a turn (well, except a scout or warrior maybe), but you will have so many more cities than anyone else (ideally) that you still produce just as many units per turn (plus you have very few buildings to work on, so can almost constantly be building units).

@Cabbage: I wasn't thinking to have Techs increase the yields, since that essentially forces the player to follow a set tech route each game. The numbers would have to get balanced just right so that while it is powerful in the early game, it isn't crippling in the late game. And remember that they won't be able to work a second ring under my idea, so with a max of 9 tiles worked, no city would gain more than 27 , 18 and 27 . So you could run quite a few specialists, but that would be mostly just citizens for 1 each, and maybe 1 or 2 Priests (since ideally they have no buildings allowing specialist slots which would inflate the GPP for beasts and be wierd)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Can't quite do "Peace with Animals" unless they get made into a complete Civ of their own. Right now they fight everyone because they have Hidden Nationality, which isn't easy to make exceptions to.

that's what snarko did in his amazing options mod IIRC. he had barbs, animals and undead/demons all listed in different factions, which made sense imho. not sure if that works out 100% fine right now cuz he stated it being just a beta yet, but I don't remember any bug reports about that actually - I may be mistaken though . it might be worth to check that out, it could make for a great addition to the game. ( all of those additional custom options would be, actually )

 

[Valerarren]

Maybe tundra/arctic/desert needs something a lot more extreme... like ocean travel with triremes in previous civs... give them a high % chance to just die trying to cross a desert. Esp if you consider that each turn is a year, its unrealistic that you'd have foreign units survive in the desert for years at a time. Maybe have it tied in to unit level so that high level units survive but some 0 exp warrior probably wont.

Instead of die, why not just make them take damage (lose 10% of existing HP each turn). I'm sure I've seen something like this in other mods (maybe Rhye's)?

 

[Nor'easter]

If their cities work only 1 ring, and are thus less productive, forcing them to spam a lot of small cities, then would their settler cost need to be reduced to balance that out?

 

[xanaqui42]

How would they upgrade mana? (because the ai doesnt deal well with mixed worker and combat code ai adepts cant upgrade mana nodes, workers have to do it)

Perhaps I should put working on this higher on my list for Wiser Orcs. I'd have to look at the code closer, but I didn't see anything too difficult last I looked - I'd think I could put it in much like how I put in building great works for Prophets & Disciples.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

While removing workers is an interesting concept, it does make playing them less interesting; less to do when not at war, less options to build etc.
But making them the anti-Kuriotates is more interesting. They wouldn't even need a strict restristion on what tiles that they can work; remove their oblisk & theatre (maybe, maybe not the culture bonus of a palace) and of course make this clear to the player, and they would have their cities restricted to one ring for a long time.
Then to compensate, they could get a flat 50% production & +50% commerce to every city (or so). With the target being many cities each a little weaker than the average civ.

Their lands are still going to have improvements and such, but even when playing a conquest heavy civ that is part of the fun of the game, imo.

If so, they would have to not be able to use a disciples culture bomb, of course, or keep oblisks/theatres when conquering cities.

 

[Mailbox]

I'm pretty sure the city ring code (although not in traits) is set up so that cities can be forced to have just one ring via a building.

How about something like:

Xenophobic:
- 1 ring cities
- +50% commerce
- +50% production
- -10% science
- -50% culture

 

[Nor'easter]

I'd probably call it something other than Xenophobic, not sure what.

 

[Schmoe]

If we removed workers and work boats from the doviello what would we need to add? We would definitly need to allow them to hook up bonuses without roads, what else?

You'd need some way to counteract the loss of tile production that comes from upgraded tiles. One way to do this is if all tiles just gave the base production for the Doviello, except for resources. Resources would give the basic upgrade production once the appropriate tech was researched. In addition, further techs would improve the yield from certain resources, so that cities would be extremely tied to the nearby resources.

Alternatively, each tile would give the basic production, but production yields would be improved by technology on a terrain-type basis. So Machinery might give +1 commerce on hills, while Agriculture might give +1 food on grasslands.

What would happen if they captured enemy workers/slaves?

Sacrifice them for production. "Settle" them in a city to create a breeding program that adds XP to each military unit produced there. "Settle" them in a Doviello version of a Freak Show. If you want to go the route of having National Heroes (Great Beasts) tied to GPP, sacrifice them to appease the beasts and get them on your side.

How would they upgrade mana? (because the ai doesnt deal well with mixed worker and combat code ai adepts cant upgrade mana nodes, workers have to do it)

I like the idea that mana nodes would upgrade randomly, with a small chance each turn and the type of upgrade dependent on which technologies had been researched. This could reflect the mystics in the caves having a visionary breakthrough that releases the mana for the Doviello.

What if they captured land with improvements on it?

Definitely auto-pillage. Scorched earth, baby!

 

[MayNilad Man]

Now, I can't remember precisely why I said no workers in the first place, other than it makes them VERY different, but the 2 things it makes difficult are no Roads, and no upgrading Mana for the AI. The roads I would dodge by maybe giving their Racial Trait a Flat Move cost ability? But then Commando is useless for the civ... so maybe a hefty reduction in tile move costs? Then no desert or forest anywhere in erebus slows them down, but they can still make use of enemy roads when they gain Commando. Downside on that is that you still gain benefit from roads, so you will be begging other players to build roads for you, or seeking out well-roaded territory. So overall I like blocking them from using roads at all, and just saying that Commando is useless for the civ.

You could have it so that only Shadows and Assassins can use commando, since they seem to be the type that would deign to use roads.

Alternatively, would it be possible to code it so that only guys with commando can use roads?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

In addition, further techs would improve the yield from certain resources, so that cities would be extremely tied to the nearby resources.

I think what we're trying to do here, and what fits them thematically, is actually the opposite, i.e. have them not care about the surroundings and just plop down lots of small cities. it makes sense that they don't really care about their surroundings: they are used to frozen wastelands, they don't NEED lush grasslands to thrive

 

[Aroldo]

Some very nice ideas. Way to go to "personalize" the various civs.

Personally, I think it´d be nice to go the same way to make Malakim&Khazad more unique in flavour, though I understand that would require a lot of work and it´s probably not considered a priority - since, after all, they both more or less work.

 

[Skitters]

Okay, so not saying its going to happen, but just exploring the idea.

If we removed workers and work boats from the doviello what would we need to add? We would definitly need to allow them to hook up bonuses without roads, what else?

How would they upgrade mana? (because the ai doesnt deal well with mixed worker and combat code ai adepts cant upgrade mana nodes, workers have to do it)

Rather than remove workers / work boats, could the Dov be locked out from/gaining benefits from (except razing) farms and cottages?

Or would the AI end up with too many workers running around?

What would happen if they captured enemy workers/slaves?

Perhaps they could Sacrice to Camulous for a 'gift' - randomly boosts research/gives production boost in a random Dov city*/culture to a random city/gifts the "mark of Camulous"+ promotion to Lucian or if he already has it another Dov unit/grants Hero to Lucian/Does nothing/small chance of a minor negative effect (this is the Angel of chaos were talking about here!)

* ie; not neccessarily in a city the worker/slave is situated in.

+ Mark of Camulous = +0-2 'chaos' strength when attacking (ie; may have no benefit, may give +2 strength)

What if they captured land with improvements on it?

If the Dov gain no benefit from farms/cottages, the AI would probably need to be trained to raze these improvements for the cash boost

 

[TheJopa]

Did anyone propose auto-spawning improvements?

If we remove their workers then there should be a small chance that hunter's hut can spawn in forest, forager can spawn on grasslands, tents could spawn as well and would replace cottages and such. Their lands would still look sparse, even if lots of improvements spawn, make their improvements have very small graphic size.

Captured workers and slaves should simply be auto killed and forgotten.

Or auto-added to nearest city for +1 pop or for 15 hammers, and unit removed.

Or turned to beastmen, heh.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Instead of die, why not just make them take damage (lose 10% of existing HP each turn). I'm sure I've seen something like this in other mods (maybe Rhye's)?

I dunno, I guess I just like the way it works thematically. Leading an army into the arctic should be a last measure... IE You don't know what happens, maybe some fall into a hidden crevasse, a snowstorm throws a few off track... but every time you look back there are less of them.

OTOH, just pure damage would allow the "winterborn" promotion to be used... in effect making Doviello or Illian units take extra damage in the desert, which makes sense. Of course cold resistant or heat resistant would provide immunity to the effects (making mutation more useful).

Anyway, guess its a moot point, I think this idea got poopoo'd.

 

[Schmoe]

I think what we're trying to do here, and what fits them thematically, is actually the opposite, i.e. have them not care about the surroundings and just plop down lots of small cities. it makes sense that they don't really care about their surroundings: they are used to frozen wastelands, they don't NEED lush grasslands to thrive

Fair enough. I know that very often, survivors of wastelands are very closely tied to rare resources (seal hunting grounds, oases, whale breeding grounds, etc), so I threw that out as an option. I admit that I don't know enough about Doviello flavor to say that is the appropriate way to go, which is why I gave a second option.

 

[Marchwik]

I'm pretty sure the city ring code (although not in traits) is set up so that cities can be forced to have just one ring via a building.

How about something like:

Xenophobic:
- 1 ring cities
- +50% commerce
- +50% production
- -10% science
- -50% culture

Yep, but need change trait to organized in other way it's no make sense,because they need many enclaves to grow and for science race or made new traits to give them a little big boost compare to the others with fatcrosses.

 

[sylvain5477]

It will be impossible to get a city which pumps out a unit a turn (well, except a scout or warrior maybe), but you will have so many more cities than anyone else (ideally) that you still produce just as many units per turn (plus you have very few buildings to work on, so can almost constantly be building units).

Does that mean they would have to have big discount for the taxes for the number of cities ?

 

[EverNoob]

A final interesting tweak I would propose is to replace all/most Great People with Unique Unit variants. They can keep Great Prophets, but Merchants, Engineers and Bards aren't entirely appropriate for the Civ (Great engineer somewhat is with the War Machine and all that - to block the non-great specialists from being assigned, just don't allow any buildings/civics which give access to that specialist type). Swap these out for Great Beasts, along the lines of Gurid and Fiacra. Then you can have your cities building Totems to the Great Beasts (which provide you with GPP, and eventually Beast Units). The Beasts would ideally be fairly slow and have Strength & Defense values different from each other. One at Tier 3 levels (10 or so) and the other at Tier 2 Levels (6 or so). This way you can make use of them for the entire game, but due to being slow you won't dominate using them in the early stages, in the middle stages they are multi-purpose (both stats are decent), and in the late stages they are specific use (only one stat is high enough to be worth trying to use. So the Turtle stays home to guard a city, while the Dire Wolf attacks cities, but sticks close to some friends who can guard it).

Great Beasts is an awesome idea!! That would be so cool! It's true that Great engineers/merchants/bards are not very appropriate for the Doviello. Should keep the Great Sage to build the AV holy shrine though.

 

[Kael]

Great Beasts is an awesome idea!! That would be so cool! It's true that Great engineers/merchants/bards are not very appropriate for the Doviello. Should keep the Great Sage to build the AV holy shrine though.

It is an interesting idea. Unfortunatly we are already using this mechanic for (what i believe is a more interesting implementation) with adventures. We also have a build a building to randomly spawn units with the planar gate for the sheaim.

Outside of that I am hesitant to add another "buildings spawn units" mechanic. Its unpredictable and when you make a civs core mechanic unpredictable you strongly influence the flavor of the civ. So I prefer predicable mechanics for civs like the doviello (ie: if they have unique beast units you build them, they dont pop randomly).

Plus, though I agree about the doviello not being in flavor for great sages, merchants, bards etc I really hate to strip away all the buildings that grant specialists or direct points. That just forces them into a straight military build which is kinda boring. They are already incented to push military, but if a player wants to go with a civ of doviello warrior poets with a mix of culture buildings and axemen, more power to him.