Man the Barbarian code is laaaammmeee...

[cleverhandle]

My beef with all the "suggestions" people make about barbs is that it forces you into one single play style. You HAVE to research military techs ASAP and you HAVE to pump out 5+ military units per city ASAP. That completely destroys the first third of the game for any other kind of playstyle.

Raging overstatements. On Standard Emperor, my military totals 6-8 warriors by the time I settle my third city. I usually research toward BW immediately or almost immediately, but you need that for so many reasons it's almost always foolish not to. If I have copper within reach of my capitol or second city I won't take Archery until much, much later - usually just before Alphabet. If I don't have easy copper access, then I'll research Archery earlier, but I still usually wait until I've gotten most or all of the worker techs first. Archery may be something like tech #10 in that kind of situation.

If you can't handle barbs efficiently, then check out some succession games for tips. Your gripes about overwhelming military needs and distorted research paths show that you don't yet understand the subtleties of barb-watching.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

My beef with all the "suggestions" people make about barbs is that it forces you into one single play style. You HAVE to research military techs ASAP and you HAVE to pump out 5+ military units per city ASAP. That completely destroys the first third of the game for any other kind of playstyle.

It's really not as bad as you're making it out to be. Barbs just make sure you don't totally neglect your early military as was possible with civ3. Yes, you do HAVE to do certain things in order to advance, and learn defend yourself is one of them. You do need horses, or archery, or bronze working, then fortify a few units outside your cities on wooded/jungle hills and then rake in the experience points. When a unit gets 10 exp. rotate in a new unit to the front line. By the time you have to fight a real opponent you should have a strong, experienced military all ready to go.

And already mentioned: there is an option to turn them off if you prefer not to have the accomplishment of defeating them.

 

[ewink]

Hello all... Noob to the forum here with a question, as I registered to b**ch about the barbs...

Do they HAVE to come from somewhere? I'm understanding that its possible they can arrive on boats (as you see barb boats all the time), but my current problem is that I am constantly being attacked by the jerks. It's nothing I can't handle, and I'm not complaining that they are draining my military, because they aren't.

But they are coming from some invisible barb factory.

I currently have 2 explorers and six horse archers roaming the unannexed areas of my continant and I can't find a barb city at all. Yet every three turns no less than 8 of them, ranging from swords to warriors, come in to annoy my perimeter longbowmen and forest dwelling axemen.

Summary, where the #@&# are they coming from?

(I also have 3 boats patrolling the coast and have only intercepted a single barb boat.)

 

[Artanis]

Hello all... Noob to the forum here with a question, as I registered to b**ch about the barbs...

Do they HAVE to come from somewhere? I'm understanding that its possible they can arrive on boats (as you see barb boats all the time), but my current problem is that I am constantly being attacked by the jerks. It's nothing I can't handle, and I'm not complaining that they are draining my military, because they aren't.

But they are coming from some invisible barb factory.

I currently have 2 explorers and six horse archers roaming the unannexed areas of my continant and I can't find a barb city at all. Yet every three turns no less than 8 of them, ranging from swords to warriors, come in to annoy my perimeter longbowmen and forest dwelling axemen.

Summary, where the #@&# are they coming from?

(I also have 3 boats patrolling the coast and have only intercepted a single barb boat.)

They appear out of thin air.

...no seriously, they do. Any tile that's under Fog of War has a chance for a Barbarian to simply show up there, at which point he heads for the nearest thing to pillage/kill. That's why a lot of us make such a big deal out of pushing back the Fog of War...the more tiles you can see, the fewer Barbarians you have to fight.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

Hello all... Noob to the forum here with a question, as I registered to b**ch about the barbs...

Do they HAVE to come from somewhere? I'm understanding that its possible they can arrive on boats (as you see barb boats all the time), but my current problem is that I am constantly being attacked by the jerks. It's nothing I can't handle, and I'm not complaining that they are draining my military, because they aren't.

But they are coming from some invisible barb factory.

I currently have 2 explorers and six horse archers roaming the unannexed areas of my continant and I can't find a barb city at all. Yet every three turns no less than 8 of them, ranging from swords to warriors, come in to annoy my perimeter longbowmen and forest dwelling axemen.

Summary, where the #@&# are they coming from?

(I also have 3 boats patrolling the coast and have only intercepted a single barb boat.)

Any tile that is 'dark', i.e. not currently illuminated by one of your units, can spawn a barb at any time. Barb cities tend to spawn barbs even faster. In previous posts people mentioned the tactic of putting units outside your cities. This both 'lights up' the landscape to prevent barbs from spawning on those tiles and gives you an early warning so you can intercept and destroy them far away from your cities when they do appear.

 

[ewink]

Interesting. So the rumors of an invisible barb factory are true!

Well, make me feel better knowing that I haven't lost my mind... yet...

Thanks everyone.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

Interesting. So the rumors of an invisible barb factory are true!

Well, make me feel better knowing that I haven't lost my mind... yet...

Thanks everyone.

Don't worry, as many of us can attest, losing your mind in no way prevents you from enjoying a good game of civ.

 

[ewink]

Don't worry, as many of us can attest, losing your mind in no way prevents you from enjoying a good game of civ.

Thank Tao for that...

OT i just noticed we live in the same RL civ. Viva!

 

[Willem]

All I could do was build warrior after warrior to defend my city.

Well there's your problem. Use Archers to defend your cities and you'll never have to worry about them again. Even Axemen don't stand a chance against an Archer with a rank or two in city defence. Send out a few to the Hills around your borders as well and they'll never even reach your territory. The only early barb unit I've seen that's a match for an Archer on a Hill is a Swordsman. Even then it's pretty much even odds.

 

[Byrath]

About posting sentries outside your borders to watch for barbs..
Its a good idea, but you have to be careful not to overdo it, as having more than 4 or 5 units outside your borders will start to cost you money for upkeep, and that can really hurt your research when you are only producing 15-20 commerce per turn.
For myself, I only plant sentries on the path to the site of the next city I plan to build.. and despite this, I have never seen a case of 'streaming barbs' like this.
*Byrath knocks on wood*

 

[warpus]

Hello all... Noob to the forum here with a question, as I registered to b**ch about the barbs...

Do they HAVE to come from somewhere? I'm understanding that its possible they can arrive on boats (as you see barb boats all the time), but my current problem is that I am constantly being attacked by the jerks. It's nothing I can't handle, and I'm not complaining that they are draining my military, because they aren't.

But they are coming from some invisible barb factory.

I currently have 2 explorers and six horse archers roaming the unannexed areas of my continant and I can't find a barb city at all. Yet every three turns no less than 8 of them, ranging from swords to warriors, come in to annoy my perimeter longbowmen and forest dwelling axemen.

Summary, where the #@&# are they coming from?

(I also have 3 boats patrolling the coast and have only intercepted a single barb boat.)

The barbarians are produced in a parallel universe and teleported into our own using a parallalel universe barbarian teleportation device.

 

[Wodan]

About posting sentries outside your borders to watch for barbs..
Its a good idea, but you have to be careful not to overdo it, as having more than 4 or 5 units outside your borders will start to cost you money for upkeep, and that can really hurt your research when you are only producing 15-20 commerce per turn.
For myself, I only plant sentries on the path to the site of the next city I plan to build.. and despite this, I have never seen a case of 'streaming barbs' like this.
*Byrath knocks on wood*

Good point, and good suggestion.

I pretty much always do a "ring of sentries" and, no matter what map you're playing, your empire is going to butt up against something. A coast, an AI empire, a string of mountains (on highlands map), the edge of the map (on square maps)... you name it. On those edges, the barb threat is, of course, minimized. So, your sentries can skimp in these areas as there is no place for Barbs to spawn.

I'm usually of two minds regarding this area... either go ahead and settle a city there, to make the area 100% safe, or to leave it for midgame (so that I can push my borders -outward- towards the AIs and then backfill later). YMMV and pick whichever you prefer. This being a discussion on Barbs, I might suggest you go ahead and settle that area.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Here's what I'm talking about....

Note that my capitol is on the coast... that's one border safe. To the east, there's a peninsula which I already have a city, two borders. Northeast is Isabella... I have a Gorak (sorry, a "warrior") nearby but to be honest, any spawned barbs up there will almost certainly hit her (note that she has started a city just underneath the "Enter screen shot name" window). West and northwest, I have 3 units fortified on hills or forested hillls.

I've been hit by many animals without losses and increasing all my units to 5XP. Barb Goraks have just started to show up, and my fortified units have no problem. By the time barb Archers show up, I'll have fortified Goraks with 10XP, effective strength about... 4.5 if I have the math right. So, they should handle archers no problem (the Archers will suicide attack the forested hills). By the time barb Axes show up, I should have my choice of mounted archers, axes, or swords of my own (In this game, I'll have Keshiks). Again, no problem.

Also note that I didn't bother building Barracks at all to get to this point. I am in Turfan only because I'm getting ready to take on Isabella.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Its a good idea, but you have to be careful not to overdo it, as having more than 4 or 5 units outside your borders will start to cost you money for upkeep, and that can really hurt your research when you are only producing 15-20 commerce per turn.

I don't think Recon units count as military units, so Scouts won't add to upkeep outside your borders. I don't think I've ever incurred an upkeep cost, but then again I mix Scouts and Goraks.

(Actually, I don't think any special units or even artillery count... but I'm not sure.)

Wodan

 

[White Elk]

Wodan, on a huge map barbs will spawn in those fog regions. I count over twelve in your screenshot. In my huge mapped monarch marathon games, those regions alone would spawn at least three barbs every couple turns. And I've noticed that barbs are just as likely to avoid my sentries as they are to engage them if there are terrain improvements nearby. Scouts help very little with these settings. If I encounter one barb animal then chances are that I will encounter two or three. If I survive the pack attack then I will be attacked by another pack before being healed and will not survive the second wave.

I've played 5 games with these settings. In every game the barb rate has been extreme and limits my gameplay options considerably. If I want to have any terrain improvements left after 2000bc I must research hunting and bronze working immediatly and I must build many offensive units. Fortifying an archer on a plains bronze is suicide and fortifying an archer on an adjacent forested hill only causes the barb to bypass the defender to plunder the mine. So I must have axemen ready to take them down.

Sentries help to push back the fog and limit the barb spawns a little. But the time comes when they approach in such numbers as to cause me to pull back my sentries to defend the city improvements. So right off the bat I have to build a small army just so I can protect my infrastructure. In higher difficulties this quickly gets expensive. On marathon speed it takes alot of time. On a huge map the barbs spawn quickly and in great numbers. Barb spawn rate is unaffected by game speed. But the human and AI civs are drastically affected by gamespeed. Combine all this and you get raging barbs for the price of the default barb setting.

Now I've never been seriously threatened by these barbs. I've lost a few improvements but my cities have never been in danger of falling. But they force me to play the opening game in such a way as to limit my options. To defend against them and be able to have any sort of city improvements I have to forgoe all alternate research and build paths. I am stuck in one mode and that has grown quite boring. I think there needs to be a modifier for barb appearance ratios based on map size. And perhaps a modifier based on game speed. Otherwise you get raging barbs at the default setting and the game starts off the same way every time.

 

[gettingfat]

Wodan, on a huge map barbs will spawn in those fog regions. I count over twelve in your screenshot. In my huge mapped monarch marathon games, those regions alone would spawn at least three barbs every couple turns. And I've noticed that barbs are just as likely to avoid my sentries as they are to engage them if there are terrain improvements nearby. Scouts help very little with these settings. If I encounter one barb animal then chances are that I will encounter two or three. If I survive the pack attack then I will be attacked by another pack before being healed and will not survive the second wave.

I've played 5 games with these settings. In every game the barb rate has been extreme and limits my gameplay options considerably. If I want to have any terrain improvements left after 2000bc I must research hunting and bronze working immediatly and I must build many offensive units. Fortifying an archer on a plains bronze is suicide and fortifying an archer on an adjacent forested hill only causes the barb to bypass the defender to plunder the mine. So I must have axemen ready to take them down.

Sentries help to push back the fog and limit the barb spawns a little. But the time comes when they approach in such numbers as to cause me to pull back my sentries to defend the city improvements. So right off the bat I have to build a small army just so I can protect my infrastructure. In higher difficulties this quickly gets expensive. On marathon speed it takes alot of time. On a huge map the barbs spawn quickly and in great numbers. Barb spawn rate is unaffected by game speed. But the human and AI civs are drastically affected by gamespeed. Combine all this and you get raging barbs for the price of the default barb setting.

Now I've never been seriously threatened by these barbs. I've lost a few improvements but my cities have never been in danger of falling. But they force me to play the opening game in such a way as to limit my options. To defend against them and be able to have any sort of city improvements I have to forgoe all alternate research and build paths. I am stuck in one mode and that has grown quite boring. I think there needs to be a modifier for barb appearance ratios based on map size. And perhaps a modifier based on game speed. Otherwise you get raging barbs at the default setting and the game starts off the same way every time.

I agree with what you said. I don't know how those posters who say they can build 10-15 archers/axemen really play. I mostly play panganea setting on standard map at Monarch or Emperor because I hate playing alone on an isolated island. At those settings by the time you get several military units cranked out you would find yourself cornered by the other civs, who quickly expand and take all your favorite city building locations. You can chop rush those units, but then not every game one have all those forests nearby. And if you want to send the workers away from the culture border to steal wood they have to be escorted by at least a warrior, or they will 80% become the lunch of wolves coming out of nowhere.

The problem actually is not the barbarians, which I find them manageable. It's the AIs who are not much affected by the barbarians at high difficulty levels, which outexpand, outresearch, and "out-religionize" (I can't think of I term so I coin one here) that's the problem.

I always think that the civ game designer should go back to the custom setting option in civ3, which allow more possible levels of barbarian activity. Currently there are no three in the custom game setting (no, standard, raging). They should at least make it 1 to 5, with default at 3, and even offer a random option. Then I will pick whatever I feel like and experiment.

 

[Wodan]

Wodan, on a huge map barbs will spawn in those fog regions. I count over twelve in your screenshot.

About every other game I play is on a huge map and, while occasionally a single Barb will pop up in those spots, I haven't noticed swarms as you say. And yes, I do Marathon on many of those games.

It would be easy enough to avoid all fog, if that's what's necessary. It might take an extra couple of units, but that's do-able.

For example, in the screenshot I posted, I had 2 extra units just sitting there (one in Turfan, and one just outside of it). In addition, I was building Barracks, not because I needed it against the Barbs, but because I figured I had the Barbs covered and decided to go ahead and prepare for Isabella. Instead, I could easily have popped out a couple more units.

Seems to me that what you describe is not what I've been experiencing. Or else, you aren't putting out a ring of sentries as I do.

I suppose it's possible our game versions are different, or something.

As for part two, that's easy enough to verify, with a point-blank question. Have you tried this tactic which I have suggested? If not, please do so. I'd be curious to hear your experience.

And I've noticed that barbs are just as likely to avoid my sentries as they are to engage them if there are terrain improvements nearby.

The only time I've seen Barbs avoid a sentry is when the sentry is waaay overkill. e.g., a fortified Rifleman.

I've even had Barbs sitting outside an ungarrisoned city, with my unit getting there just too late, or so I thought, as I ended the turn adjacent to the Barb. Rather than walk in unopposed and take the city, the Barb turned around and attacked my unit.

Scouts help very little with these settings. If I encounter one barb animal then chances are that I will encounter two or three. If I survive the pack attack then I will be attacked by another pack before being healed and will not survive the second wave.

That happens to me all the time. If there's another animal nearby, I simply have the Scout execute a tactical retreat ("run away!"), and then I come back with several warriors to wipe them out. If only one animal can reach the scout in a given turn, I go ahead and let the scout fight. Only a Bear should be able to take a Scout fortified in forested hills. After the fight, the wounded scout can run away to heal.

Anyway, it's not like the animals are any danger. They won't enter your cultural borders, ever.

Sentries help to push back the fog and limit the barb spawns a little. But the time comes when they approach in such numbers as to cause me to pull back my sentries to defend the city improvements. So right off the bat I have to build a small army just so I can protect my infrastructure. In higher difficulties this quickly gets expensive. On marathon speed it takes alot of time. On a huge map the barbs spawn quickly and in great numbers. Barb spawn rate is unaffected by game speed. But the human and AI civs are drastically affected by gamespeed. Combine all this and you get raging barbs for the price of the default barb setting.

I haven't observed this kind of rate.

Perhaps it's a difference of terminology. For example, you say, "a small army". Please clarify. Is that 3 units? 5? 10? 15?

You mention Axes. On Marathon speed, I would assume you have 3-4 cities and it's around 0AD, perhaps. Is that about right?

Now I've never been seriously threatened by these barbs. I've lost a few improvements but my cities have never been in danger of falling. But they force me to play the opening game in such a way as to limit my options. To defend against them and be able to have any sort of city improvements I have to forgoe all alternate research and build paths. I am stuck in one mode and that has grown quite boring.

That's a valid criticism.

I suppose at this point I would repeat my question, have you tried using sentries as I have described? I don't think this tactic limits a player's options. Yes, you need to build a certain number of warriors. And, while there's plenty of time to get religious or financial techs, at some point you need to go for mounted archers, axes, or swords. All true. However, I don't think that's unreasonable. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the extent to which your gameplay is constrained.

I think there needs to be a modifier for barb appearance ratios based on map size. And perhaps a modifier based on game speed. Otherwise you get raging barbs at the default setting and the game starts off the same way every time.

I can't imagine anyone would have a problem with these suggestions. They seem very reasonable.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

I agree with what you said. I don't know how those posters who say they can build 10-15 archers/axemen really play.

I've never built more than 1 Scout, a half dozen Warriors, and a half dozen Axes, and I've dealt with the Barbs just fine.

I mostly play panganea setting on standard map at Monarch or Emperor because I hate playing alone on an isolated island. At those settings by the time you get several military units cranked out you would find yourself cornered by the other civs, who quickly expand and take all your favorite city building locations.

I usually "skip over" favorite building locations, and built at the next good location. Later on, when my finances can handle it, I backfill and put a city at that good spot I skipped.

Wodan

 

[Krupo]

I will agree with that, but I do have to admit there is a point where it can get a little out-of-hand.

You want out of hand? Go back to Civ 3's 20-30 stack barbarian attacks. Damn those were painful. Even if you survived it took forever to process their invasion force!

And Civ 4's promotions make the Civ 3 style invasions much worse in comparison; at least you get some substatinally more tangible benefits from fighting off enemies than little hitpoint bonuses.

 

[automator]

I never seem to have that kind of flood of barbs that early (usually on Prince

I don't know. I recently tried another Noble level game. (I am so-so on Warlord). Got three cities into the game. I thought I was doing OK. A couple archers per city + a warrior, about to contect to some iron and broze ...

and the Barbarians came. First a warrior. Then a warrior on one side and an archer on another. Then three or four axe/archer combos from three directions. I had to shut down my expansion for almost the entire Medevil age, since I could do nothing but build military in my three cities. Finally got enough excess that I could garrison my cities as well as have a few stationed on wooded hills as lookout/early defenders.

Then the barbs stopped, but I was too far behind my neighbor, Saladin, so he declared war and wiped me off the planet.