Mana definitions

[Kael]

I'm kind of surprised to hear that Bhall and Junil would have seen eye-to-eye prior to her fall, since she embodies change, which doesn't seem terribly law-like. There's a difference between law and stasis though, I suppose. But I still wonder why Camulos was both the god of peace and of chaos, as the two don't seem to match up too much.

As for Danalin being chaotic, I think that's more an effect of Hastur screwing with his head as he dreams. If Bhall and Tali lean towards chaotic behaviour, then we might suspect that Danalin might lean towards lawful behaviour in his normal state, like Kilmorph; prior to the death of the Aifons, maybe the seas were more calm and peaceful.

It all depends what the change is for. Junil wants massive change too, and Bhalls change isnt related to chaos (at least it wasnt before her fall). She was passion, upheaval, and the destruction of former systems for the new. During the Age of Magic she was the greatest enemy of Kylorins former students, the dark archmages who ruled erebus. And it was by her fire that they were purged.

Her priests, and those dedicated to her (the Bannor) were the greatest enemies of evil. And her fall hurt them the worst. Many were transformed into humanoids, and as you know some were dragged into hell with her. But Junil and Bhall were close, especially among the Bannor. So much so that Junil sent his archangel into hell to resuce them, and for that effort the Bannor traded their worship of Bhall for that of Junil.

If you dont think the order wants to change things, imagine the effect they have on a newly acquired village. Every aspect is transformed.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Shouldn't the Bannor have Fire mana from their palace? Law/Fire/Spirit makes the most sense to me.

 

[smjjames]

When was Bhall in a coma? during the age of ice? It's not really mentioned anywhere that Bhall went into a coma.

edit: found that old thread where it's mentioned. I guess she could have fallen into a sort of coma both from recovering from the effects from her fall and the fact that Mulcarn sent creation into a deep ice age, effectively stifling her own magic.

Anyways, terrifying dreams have the tendency to wake you up, so it's almost guaranteed that he will wake up screaming from the nightmare sometime.

 

[Kael]

Why do they view him as Nemed reborn? Just because he now has his sphere. Don't they know the real Nemed is still around, and remember Sucellus from before he died? Also, do all the gods revere Nemed, even the evil ones who want to destroy humanity?

I know you asked a ton, but I couldnt this is such an interesting question to me. Its really key to understand that the line between a god and his dominion is blurred. Do they have a personality beyond the push of their ideology? Are they even people, or just forces of creation?

I dont know where the line is. They are intelligent and arent simply robots. But at the same time they arent humans capable of independant thought and change (unless their dominion forces that). I know that the dominion remains apart from the god, though undirected (the dominion of ice remains, but Mulcarn is gone). But if Auric becomes the god of winter, will he be Auric anymore, or will he be more like "Mulcarn"? How much of Mulcarns personality was the dominion, how much of Aurics personality will be lost to it? I imagine most of Aurics personality will be lost.

Yes, all the gods revere Nemed in varying degrees, his sacrifice awes everyone, even Agares. Agares may be pouting in his hell, but he honestly believes he is/was doing the right thing. He wanted to create an incredible world, but he couldn't make anything he was satisfied with. But Nemed created something great through a sacrifice no other god was willing to make.

Yeah they all remember Sucellus from before he died, though he is a lot different because of the dominion change. And Im sure they all know Nemed is running around somewhere. But its the same point, is that really Nemed or a man that used to be Nemed?

Shouldn't the Bannor have Fire mana from their palace? Law/Fire/Spirit makes the most sense to me.

Form a lore perspective yes, but it doesnt work on the balance as well (we have enough fire civs and the bannor shouldnt have strong casters).

When was Bhall in a coma? during the age of ice? It's not really mentioned anywhere that Bhall went into a coma.

edit: found that old thread where it's mentioned. I guess she could have fallen into a sort of coma both from recovering from the effects from her fall and the fact that Mulcarn sent creation into a deep ice age, effectively stifling her own magic.

Anyways, terrifying dreams have the tendency to wake you up, so it's almost guaranteed that he will wake up screaming from the nightmare sometime.

MC is right, I forget what the actual quote was but during the AoI Bhall was "dormant", laying in Agares's hell recovering from the effects of her fall. I always imagined her as a giant black ash smoking angel laying on the burning field of hell. It isnt until the Age of Rebirth that she becomes active again.

 

[jimi12]

i have to admit i was disappointed that Nemed is in Os-Gabella's basement. i imagined him as a powerful archmage lving in a remote part of the world.

do the gods know or care about what is happening to danalin or nemed? i would think that one of them might step in and help them. i always imagined the gods as omnipotent at least as far as erebus and creation is concerned but it sounds like that might not b the case.

 

[Darksaber1]

So, creation magic would be like fertility, as well as beigning able to assembel this with a thought?

 

[Kael]

So, creation magic would be like fertility, as well as beigning able to assembel this with a thought?

Yeah. Its really hard to come up with spells for since creation is all about making something new, and spells are about a repeatable effect. In gameplay I lean a lot on it as opposition to entropy (which is the unmaking of everything) which makes it the strengthening of things (which is actually nature) or the improvement of things (which is actually enchantment). So its really hard to come up with set spells for Creation itself.

 

[xienwolf]

Creation 1:

Animate Object. Can be cast on an improved Tile and removes that improvement, creating a permanent summoned creature in its place (Mines become Earth Elementlets, STR 2/7, move 1, double move on hills, do not recieve Defensive Bonuses. Cottages become Sprites of Fate, 0/0, move 2, can perform Trade Missions like a Great Merchant, but for about 1/30 the amount of gold (better returns for the summon made out of a town or village). All sorts of very minor "critters" and each one capable of casting a spell to destroy itself and create the improvement which they were spawned from on any unimproved tile they are standing on.


Creation 2:

Rigidity - Causes Temporary Buildings in the city to become permanent. Caster loses the Creation 2 promotion.

Creation 3:

Permanance - Removes the Duration from summoned Units on the tile. Caster loses the Creation 3 promotion. (Make sure to add a line to the code for Pit Beasts and Hosts of the Einherjar that makes the duration from combat only apply if they have a non-zero duration)

 

[smjjames]

I kind of like that idea for the creation sphere.

Although what should the farms and workshops become? The farms would have to be a nature or life 'elemental', not a true elemental like air, fire, water, and earth, but derived from the respective plane or vault. The workshops could become something like a fire elemental.

I think the resource gathering improvements (besides mines and farms) such as plantations and pastures. Even though the quarry is a resource gathering improvement, it could work to make that give a different type of earth elemental which isn't good at combat but is good at building stuff.

 

[xienwolf]

Workshops could become Mini-Engineers (kinda like the Soldiers of Kilmorph, able to add to a city), and farms can be the same, but for instead of . Windmills could become Dervishes, minimal combat strength, but able to cast Dance of Blades to grant the rest of the stack a +1 First Strike.

 

[Sureshot]

spell one almost sounds like a force type spell or even a destructive force (since it destroys an improvement), spells two and three sound like stasis/binding spells

when i think creation spells i think like "Create Food" from ultima 7, id prefer something like:

Creation 1: Create food - 2 turn casting time, adds Food Supplies promotion to all units in tile, that they can use up for modest healing (like 5%) and regain 1 movement; or if casted in city, creates building that adds +1 food and theres no casting time
Creation 2: Clone Self - 4 turn casting time, creates a permanent (until killed, of course) double of the caster without any magic ability (doesn't recieve channeling or spell promotions or hero promotions), unit made more likely to be targetted by assassins, limit 1 per caster
Creation 3: Create Structures - creates a terrain appropriate improvement (proper improvement for a resource, for non-resource itd place a mine on a hill, a farm anywhere possible, and a workshop anywhere else inside borders, or a fort anywhere outside borders), 1 turn to cast

 

[TheJopa]

Create structures seems weak for T3 spell unless it created developed villages.

 

[Sureshot]

actually the only thing i dont think the spell should create is cottage line improvements, since they are more than structures, they involve thinking people who live there (and im unsure as to whether people with souls can just be magicked into existence)

balancewise it could be good to switch creation 3 with creation 2, i dunno, not having to bother with workers would be nice tho (i forgot to say it should add roads too), plus theyd be faster than workers since they can make it in 1 turn, or it could be castable in cities as well to and create a building that adds +5 production (so it helps get structures built in cities as well, more utility that way).

 

[Darksaber1]

So, IS there a sun in Erebus, because I think somewhere it wwas said there wasn't. Also, I rather like xienwolf's list of creation magic, but that lvl 3 Creation+Summoning should allow you to summon a random summon, rather then a spacific creature. Maybe the odds of summoning a creature based on: mana needed for summon (for example, fire for a Fire Elemental) times the number you have. Ex. Fire X 5 = Odds of summon.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yes there is a sun. I'm not quite sure you'd say it is in Erebus though, any more than you'd say that there was a sun on Earth.

Of course, there sun must be a little different, considering that Erebus is a flat, infinite plane. It is known that in Kael's campaign that the Sun did not rise for months or years, due to Tebryn's Armageddon ritual. There isn't photosynthesis though, or else no one would have survived long enough to defeat Tebyrn and bring the sun back.

 

[Darksaber1]

Yes there is a sun. I'm not quite sure you'd say it is in Erebus though, any more than you'd say that there was a sun on Earth.

Ok, that answers my question. I was just wondering, because there was mention of sun stones, or something like that.

 

[Milosrdenstvi]

I'm pretty sure that Kael had once said that most of the Angels who (like Brigit) refused to fall with Bhall defected to other gods, most of them to Lugus. The current history though seems to say they were all destroyed. I like the old way better. Having surviving fire angels of all alignments helped explain why fire was so easily controlled.

In http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193494&page=2 Kael states:

So of the souls in Bhalls vault when she fell many fell with her, some fled to other dominions (a lot to Lugus) and those abandoned either stayed in her abandoned vault, began wandering the planes on their own, or made their way to the underworld.

Don't know if that applies to angels or not.

 

[smjjames]

If angels can fall, I'm sure they can rise back up. For example Cernunnos, although that was more like an emergency situation.

I'm sure Kael and the others have thier own plans for what Bhall is doing. The fact that she spared her own archangel probably shows that she still has some good in her.

Regarding the fire sphere, Chalid actually has an ability called pillar of fire, which is either an extension of the sun sphere or he is tapping fire mana. The two spheres are closely related.

 

[Tyrs]

edit-heh, forgot I was on the first page, and that there are two, so I responded to something much earlier

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I imagine that the Angels are perfectly capable of thinking and acting in ways that are outside their dominion, but their ultimate desire is still taking their dominion to the extreme. It's also entirely possible that the Angels are learning from mortals, the special beings that have free will.

Don't under-estimate what Os-gabella can keep in her basement. Actually, I sometimes imagine that her powers can rival that of the angels, for all the angels must have played a part in creating the first beings (look, there are only three things in Temporance that the Angels have all contributed in making: Erebus, the first immortal-pair and the Godslayer). If she were on the map as a unit, she would easily be a match to Basium and Hyborem.