Manchus for VP

[pineappledan]

I now tested the UNW using IGE. It did not seem to have all the intended effects. I did not see GPP transfer from other cities. Also, the extra yields to gardens were shown in the city screen at the gardens, but the total culture in the main screen did not change accordingly. The food from expending GP worked though. Maybe it would work properly if built normally.

Are the extra yields to gardens intended? They show up in some interfaces, but not in others.

Very strange… the garden boost is a very standard feature of any UNW. It uses the same code as any other civ. The GPP transfer is subtle, but it was working when I tested before release.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I had 2 more games with Manchus. Both were much harder due to bad location yield-wise and neighbors with very defensive terrain. All I managed to take in those 2 games was a single city state, converting 0 units. I got a few conversions by buying tiles in defensive wars.

Taken together, I suggest not nerfing them for now. Let's see what experience other players make.

 

[pineappledan]

Too laaaaaate!

I actually think my changes are a buff. The +5 healing in enemy land is much more consistent.
I changed how unit conversions work, it uses different conversion code so the units will retain more promotions. Barbarians will keep their double move in X terrain, and converted major civ units will retain their original civ's UA promotions, like the Danish Viking promo, etc.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Too laaaaaate!

I actually think my changes are a buff. The +5 healing in enemy land is much more consistent.
I changed how unit conversions work, it uses different conversion code so the units will retain more promotions. Barbarians will keep their double move in X terrain, and converted major civ units will retain their original civ's UA promotions, like the Danish Viking promo, etc.

Sounds good. What about conversion of ships and great people?

 

[pineappledan]

Ships disabled. GPs stay for now.

The ships thing is very historic. Look up the Qing clearances. If we ever did unique AI code for civs I would love to make it so the Qing can’t settle coast

 

[pineappledan]

From my own playthrough so far (had to quit because I altered the database by modding some more ):

I had an anomalously barbarian-free start, so I only managed to steal 1 unit with my UA until I declared war on the Aztecs. Even there, I only managed to capture 2 Jaguars with a GGeneral culture bomb after I captured his capital. Despite this, the defensive potential of the UA, and the ability to steal jaguars feels like the UA was doing at least some work for me . I happened to start near the Fountain of Youth, so in combination with my UA and some Medic units, I was healing 25 HP per turn during sieges. absolutely crazy! Something with the promotion flags mod stopped working with the latest release, so using the movement bonus was a bit of a pain, but it didn't go wholely unused. I managed to get some good hits with a pair of 6 move Nirus throughout my Aztec conquest war.

The Green Standard isn't very strong. I wasn't too impressed with the results from my game, but I only managed to capture 4 cities by the time they unlocked (+4 damage on attack), so I probably wasn't conquering hard enough to capitalize on them. They're probably okay as is, since there is the potential for them to bring a lot of pain if you invest hard into conquest.

The Manju Hoton felt lackluster. I didn't notice much change in my empire unhappiness with using them, which surprised me. I do think quite a bit of the blame rests on the constabulary being such a subtle building.

The Niru feels great. I really like this impale damage mechanic; it's very satisfying to use.

The Yuanming Garden is probably overtuned. When it unlocks in Renaissance, 75in all cities on GP expend is already huge. It's big enough it risks sinking your whole empire into instability. I definitely wanted the Qing to be able to sit back and grow at a good pace after it unlocks, maybe even have it act as a vehicle for the whole empire's growth while you de-emphasize food in exchange for specialists, but the growth was so explosive that I had to lock growth in many of my cities as soon as it came out. At this point I think even 15 per City per Era is more than enough.

 

[KlHannibal2]

From my own playthrough so far (had to quit because I altered the database by modding some more ):

The Green Standard isn't very strong. I wasn't too impressed with the results from my game, but I only managed to capture 4 cities by the time they unlocked (+4 damage on attack), so I probably wasn't conquering hard enough to capitalize on them. They're probably okay as is, since there is the potential for them to bring a lot of pain if you invest hard into conquest.

The Manju Hoton felt lackluster. I didn't notice much change in my empire unhappiness with using them, which surprised me. I do think quite a bit of the blame rests on the constabulary being such a subtle building.

The Niru feels great. I really like this impale damage mechanic; it feels really good to use.

The Yuanming Garden is probably overtuned. When it unlocks in Renaissance, 75in all cities on GP expend is already huge. It's big enough it risks sinking your whole empire into instability. I definitely wanted the Qing to be able to sit back and grow at a good pace after it unlocks, maybe even have it act as a vehicle for the whole empire's growth while you de-emphasize food in exchange for specialists, but the growth was so explosive that I had to lock growth in many of my cities as soon as it came out. At this point I think even 15 per City per Era is more than enough.

I also had a few more unsuccessful runs with them. The problems basically came down to not having enough horses and /or bad terrain for skirmishers. And skirmishers have been nerfed as individual damage dealers since I first tried the Manchu.

I mostly agree with your observations. The green standard has potential, but if you don't manage to conquer a lot, it sucks. Maybe the bonus damage could be 2 per conquered city, capping at 15?

Overall, the Manchu are a glass cannon. If you manage to conquer, your green standards will do insane damage and you can spam great scientists. But if you don't, you play as a vanilla civ for quite some time.

 

[KlHannibal2]

It's cool to see that the conversion works for the AI as well. Just took a Manchu city. Two turns later he took it back. 6 units converted. Ouch.

 

[pineappledan]

New version

Yuanming now has -1 boredom in all cities instead of -10%
reduced the instant food in all cities from GP expend to 10 (was crashing happiness and growing too fast at 25)
Increased Green Standard Army damage per city to 2, but capped at 10 damage/5 cities

 

[pineappledan]

Fixed the Manchus for real this time. there was a glitch with the Manju Hoton.
- Added +2 to the Manju Hoton (increases to +4 with Garrison)
- fixed a bunch of database errors in compatibility files. should now be compatible with YNAEMP

Huge QoL boost for the Manchus now that Promotion Flags has been integrated with base VP. The civ is much more playable now.

 

[Chinag]

I wonder if Manchu needs some early game buff now that you can't buy tiles with barbarians on so you can't use your UA to get an early army (except by settling cities next to them). The Civ feels mostly geared for snowball warmongering, but only the banners help for attacking the first city. They also struggle in wars where both armies are even and taking cities will take several turns. Perhaps a GG acquisition bonus would be an interesting way to buff Manchus, as I did use excess GG for citadels to break frontlines in the lategame.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I wonder if Manchu needs some early game buff now that you can't buy tiles with barbarians on so you can't use your UA to get an early army (except by settling cities next to them). The Civ feels mostly geared for snowball warmongering, but only the banners help for attacking the first city. They also struggle in wars where both armies are even and taking cities will take several turns. Perhaps a GG acquisition bonus would be an interesting way to buff Manchus, as I did use excess GG for citadels to break frontlines in the lategame.

Maybe Manchus can be allowed to buy tiles with barbs. Also, after the skirmisher nerf, manchu got much weaker.

 

[pineappledan]

Maybe Manchus can be allowed to buy tiles with barbs. Also, after the skirmisher nerf, manchu got much weaker.

I asked for this exact exception to be added from @ilteroi when the change was implemented. I’m still hopeful it will happen

 

[pineappledan]

the newest patch allows tiles occupied by barbarians to be purchased again, but not tiles occupied by other civ's and city states.

IMO this is ideal. The Manchus can buy early roving barbarians, but they cannot turn back entire invasions by buying the tiles from under a civ’s incoming army.

Manchus are fighting fit again with no updates necessary.

 

[pineappledan]

4.0 compatibility posted.

All mentions of "hermitage" have been replaced with "Royal Collection" for the Yuanming yuan.

Eight Banner changed to give +5 healing to enemy AND neutral territory, up from enemy land only (15HP healed per turn in friendly and neutral, 10HP in enemy land).
This recuperates a bit of the old Danish UA. Makes Manchus barb hunting phase much more efficient.

 

[KlHannibal2]

the newest patch allows tiles occupied by barbarians to be purchased again, but not tiles occupied by other civ's and city states.

IMO this is ideal. The Manchus can buy early roving barbarians, but they cannot turn back entire invasions by buying the tiles from under a civ’s incoming army.

Manchus are fighting fit again with no updates necessary.

Thinking about buying attacking AI units from when I played Manchu. I never had the money to buy out an entire army. But the ability was very good for sniping attacking siege units. It did not feel too strong. Before the skirmisher change, tge UU1 was enough to carry you to a conquest. With weaker skirmishers, this civ suffered.

 

[pineappledan]

I never had the money to buy out an entire army. But the ability was very good for sniping attacking siege units.

Very Ujen Cooha of you.

The change to unit conversions on purchase are downstream of base VP dev decisions, so my hands are tied on that. I have to say it felt a little gamey and unfair that I could blunt an invasion like that in the first place, so I think we can find alternative ways to balance the civ.

With weaker skirmishers, this civ suffered.

Hopefully the stronger early game will help ameliorate that. From my own game I found you had to just get to the UNW unlock and then the civ transformed into an ultra-tall civ-city game, where I was much more preoccupied with building public works and managing my exploding population than I was with prosecuting a war.