Manhattan Project - Small wonder?

[TerraHero]

In reality everyone was designing there own nuclear program, USSR, Nazi's, America.

So why should one do all the heavy lifting and let all other civs benefit from it while they save up there production to build other stuff. Because your culture benefit isnt exactly that much of a deal with this wonder and by this time it will not impact heavy.

So while u got 1 city working on the manhatten program, other civs can juz build up units or other wonders and such. And when you complete it, everyone gets the beneift wich is nuclear capacity, plus the stuff they ahd gained from not having to lift a finger for this wonder. So i guess it would be more beneficial of it was a large wonder to juz kick back and wait till someone else makes it for you.

And if a smaller civ isnt able to make it fast enough, well then they get overrun, its survival of the fittest in Civ and always has been, and they are clearly not fit enough.

So cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war.

 

[EdCase]

I could actually go with the delay until other civs aqquire the ability to produce nukes..say 5 turns, as that would make the scenario I portrayed for Knupp..MORE interesting....by adding the "OK they built it now if I can just hang in there.........." feeling

 

[grumbler]

In reality everyone was designing there own nuclear program, USSR, Nazi's, America.

But all of today's nuclear powers only started building their own nukes after the US had shown that it was possible. So I'd still say that this first effort, taking the risk of investing large resources without a guaranteed return, would be best mirrored by a great wonder. After that, the the efforts inherent in the nuclear programs is represented by the cost of building nukes itself.

So while u got 1 city working on the manhatten program, other civs can juz build up units or other wonders and such. And when you complete it, everyone gets the beneift wich is nuclear capacity, plus the stuff they ahd gained from not having to lift a finger for this wonder. So i guess it would be more beneficial of it was a large wonder to juz kick back and wait till someone else makes it for you.

I'd say that would depend on the circumstances.
If I'm the tech leader, than I would probably build the MP and start building nukes to maximize my lead.
If there are other, equally advanced and belligerent civs, it would in fact probably prudent to sit back and delay the nuclear age as long as possible.[/QUOTE]

 

[covenant]

Small Wonder. This is so silly as a large wonder that gives them to everyone. If that was the case, Bora Bora would have nukes right now.

I realize its a game mechanic to bring balance, but its not a very good way to do it.

And there should be a spy option to steal the plans so you dont have to build the small wonder.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

Nah, I think large wonder is good. Otherwise, a small nation won't have a chance to build nukes at all- they'll be busy trying to finish the wonder, while their larger neighbor is nuking them to pieces. If it's a large wonder, everyone gets the same start.

That's the whole idea: to prevent less advanced civs from producing nukes. It's not only realistic but it's fair.

Why should a civ that's still using Musketmen and Cavalry be able to produce nukes after a civ with Tanks and Bombers built the Manhatten Project wonder? It makes no sense.

Today, there are less than a dozen nations that are confirmed nuclear powers. That's less than 12 out of over 200 countries. Just because the U.S. completed the Manhatten Project doesn't mean that any dirt-farming country can suddenly produce nuclear weapons, and that was over 60 years ago.

I agree that the Manhatten Project should be a small wonder that every civ must build in order to produce nukes.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd say Large, but building it should have some other benefit (free nukes every X turns, lower cost nukes, etc.)

So in WWII everyone would be trying to get it but the Americans get it first, everyone else cashes out and starts building Nukes.

And you would still need a tech to build nukes (Fission) so no one with Musketmen and Cavalry would be building nukes.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

I'd say Large, but building it should have some other benefit (free nukes every X turns, lower cost nukes, etc.)

So in WWII everyone would be trying to get it but the Americans get it first, everyone else cashes out and starts building Nukes.

And you would still need a tech to build nukes (Fission) so no one with Musketmen and Cavalry would be building nukes.

That's a little short-sighted because a civ might have the tech to produce nukes, but they still have an obsolete military without the means to upgrade. But if the Manhatten Project unlocked the production of nukes for every civ than that less-advanced civ could devote all their production to producing nukes and pose an unfair threat on the more advanced civs.

If a civ wants nukes, they should have to complete the Manhatten Project themselves; they shouldn't be allowed to piggyback on another civ's achievements.

 

[grumbler]

That's the whole idea: to prevent less advanced civs from producing nukes. It's not only realistic but it's fair.

Why should a civ that's still using Musketmen and Cavalry be able to produce nukes after a civ with Tanks and Bombers built the Manhatten Project wonder? It makes no sense.

This is not how it works in Civ3/4: The other civ still needs the technology - fission and rocketry - so they have to be pretty advanced themselves. They also need the uranium resource.

Today, there are less than a dozen nations that are confirmed nuclear powers. That's less than 12 out of over 200 countries. Just because the U.S. completed the Manhatten Project doesn't mean that any dirt-farming country can suddenly produce nuclear weapons, and that was over 60 years ago.

I'd argue that this is not a result of the technologic compexity of the project, but a result of
a) lack of enough fissionable material
b) efforts by other nations to deny those countries nuclear weapons (either through diplomatic pressure, the non-proliferation treaty or as a last resort, military action)

 

[EdCase]

If a civ wants nukes, they should have to complete the Manhatten Project themselves; they shouldn't be allowed to piggyback on another civ's achievements.

Wouldn't it be the same to say.If they want guns let them research it themselves and kill tech trading?
If they want peace let them build their own UN (remember in Civ IV the builder is NOT automatically the Sec-Gen)

An advancement is exactly that a "piggybacking" on previous work.

 

[Khaim]

Why should a civ that's still using Musketmen and Cavalry be able to produce nukes after a civ with Tanks and Bombers built the Manhatten Project wonder? It makes no sense.

If by "musketmen and cavalry" you mean low tech and low production, then the answer is simple: they wouldn't be able to. They wouldn't have the tech, they probably wouldn't have the uranium, and if they somehow did, it would take them 50 turns to crank out a nuke. At which point they'd probably have lost because the guy who made Manhattan Project sent two tanks to raze the city.

 

[Ranos]

I didn't finish reading all of the posts but I'll go back after I post my early reply.

I voted small wonder but I like the Large wonder leads to small wonders idea.

To those of you saying it balances out because it allows the other civs that didn't build it a chance to catch up, I have two things to say.

One. I research Fission first. I can see Uranium and I can build the Manhattan Project. I choose not to build the wonder in favor of building numerous military units. My closest rival researches Fission and immediately begins building the wonder. I continue to build my military and attack my rival while he builds the wonder. Once he spends all of the time and resources, I can build nukes too, plus I have a couple of dozen more units than he does because of choosing not to build the wonder. Is that balanced?

Two. If having one civ build the wonder is okay because it allows the othe civs to catch up/ balances out the game, then shouldn't all civs get a tech when someone researches it? It is basically the same concept. Researching Nuclear Fission gives your civ the understanding that this is a possibility, but it isn't until the Manhattan Project is created that it is actually done. This makes the wonder basically the same as a tech. That is why I feel that each civ should have to build a wonder on its own.

On a similar subject, if the Great Wonder leads to Small Wondersformat is used, then techs should work in a similar manner. When a civ researches a tech, all civs that have communications with that civ should have their techs become cheaper or have research points automatically applied to them.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

The Manhatten Project is a strange wonder because one civ invests time and resources into it's construction and when it's built, every civ can build nukes. What's the reward for the civ that completed it?

There are no other wonders like that.

That's why I think the Manhatten Project wonder should either reward the civ that built it with a few free nukes or a discount on the production of nukes, or something like that, or it should be a small wonder that permits the civ that built it to begin production of nukes, but all the other civs have to complete their own Manhatten Project.

 

[TerraHero]

In short everyone should build there own manhatten project. This gives the civs foccusing on science the balancign edge. I pay alot of funds in research and thus am more advanced then my neighbour who has payed alto in militairy and thus strongly outnumbers me.

I get the MP i get to build nukes wich give me the balance of my technological edge. If EVERYONE, including my neighbour would get nukes then would heb juz have a strong militairy AND nukes?

How do you find that balancing?

 

[troytheface]

have no problem with the Manhattan Project being a small wonder- and too- historically it did not take others long to develop nukes after the u.s.
However, i agree with the above post that suggested some kind of payoff for building it in addition to being able to build nukes. Perhaps if they had the first to build it get 1 nuke or at least one nuke bomb that can be loaded on a bomber, it would make it a bit more desirable.

 

[oldStatesman]

As it stands, small wonder.

Simply because I never built it in Civ3 - I would always let the aI waste the time and shields building it and reap the reward myself; since the aI would never use nukes anyway in Civ3 unless I did first there was no risk in this strategy.

I do like the large wonder/small wonder idea though; or giving the builder a few free nukes as an incentive.

But if the aI will never use nukes without first being provoked by me using them first, it is kind of a moot discussion IMHO.