Maniac1 - OBC Babylon Space Race

[Skyfish]

Early turns : moving units into postion towards Zimbabwe without leaving our flank open.
We get Mag and go for ToG, its available in 7 turns at +15gpt.

army v musk : win
army v 2nd musk win
cav v musk : win
cav v reg musk: win
cav v reg musk: retreat
cav v reg musk: dies
army v reg musk : win (army down to 2 hp)
ac elite v 2hp musk : retreats, no damage done
3hp cav v same musk : win
ac elite v longbow : win

Zimbabwe is razed, we get 7 workers and a treb.

Second Salpeter comes free. I am blockading the mongols to salvage at least one colony.
Luxes need to go from 10 to 30% to avoid WW event though we have not lost that much previous round !

700 :
Start building banks when Cavs are finished.
Deal Magnetism to the Incas for Silks, 16gpt and all their gold.
We can now have only 20&% lux and finsih ToG in 5 turns at +32gpt.
Our Longbow kills a Zulu cav !

710 : Zulus land 1 MDI in our backlands but we have a Cav for zone defense available.

720 : Ouch we lose 2 cavs : one to an MDI...still healing before heading for the NY Horses
we renew our deal with Incas : furs for 10gpt.
Mongols finally settle on a site which does not take out one of our colony, for now.

730 : Lose a Musket defending our colony from 2 cavs but we still hold it.

740 : Zulus just got ToG and are Industrial. I do not renew our alliance vs Zulus with the Incas,
perfect timing.

750 : We get ToG and are Industrial, Nationalism is our free tech.
We attack New York with 2 Elites ACs, 4 cavs and the Knight Army : we barely raze it,
losing most of our forces including the Knight Army, I immediately make a Cav army to replace it.
I then go ahead and make peace with the Zulus : I thought long and hard about getting RoP from them
and sit on the Horses to prevent them from building cavs again but its an exploit and the chance the
Zulus could RoP rape us soon is strong so I decide vs it, even though it would have given us more control
over the game. There is a Portuguese settler pair right by, am hoping they will settle it next turn

The Zulus give us a worker, all their gold (128g) and all their gpt (56) to end the war. This should
get them quiet for a while I hope.

As we end the war, every single citizen in Babylon is happy and we the whole empire goes into we love Charis Day !
We could go to 0% lux and shave 1 turn off our research but its better to use the good production boost we get to build our banks quicker.
We can research Steam in 8 turns at +10gpt.

There is a lux available from Zulus but we dont really need it (we have 7) and dont want to make them too powerful...
Portugal RoP is up next turn, we should maybe help them and give them techs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/OBC-Maniac1,_750_AD.zip

 

[Ridgelake]

Good turn. I got it.

Couple of thoughts after looking at the save.

I'm not sure why we need banks. We are running 90-100% research. We do have a couple of towns that need cathedrals and courthouses. We also can build Newton's and Smiths. I will swap over a lot of the bank builds.

You certainly left the Zulu spread out. Driving right through their core broke them up. But outside of the Incans, none of the other civs can settle in areas that would not be rather corrupt. It would have been nice if we could have opened up good areas for the Mongols and Portugese to settle before we ended our war with the Zulus. But what is done is done.

I hope that we can keep the salt colonies for awhile. The NE one will be gone with a border expansion by the Mongols. But that might take awhile since that new town will be highly corrupt. We better pray that no one settles the SW one. I will try to block it off.

You did a great job persecuting the war, Skyfish. I don't mean to sound overly critical. I just wish that you had not ended the war on your last turn. That decision should have been left up to the team. Charis just made a lengthy discussion about SG hand-offs in his open game thread. It is something for all of us to consider.

 

[Charis]

Identical comments... a very well played turn, let's block off the western colony, and... if there's ANY doubt as to whether the next leader would like peace or war, puhleeeeeze, let THAT person make the call! I know we like to leave things tidy and in order at the end of our reign, but there was no compelling reason to stop, especially in a game with restrictions that limit our ability to wage war.

Way to go on Zimbabwe and especially NY!
Charis

 

[Skyfish]

Well it seems that lately I mess up every single SG I am in !
I am inclined to drop of every one I play in, that would be the best thing to do for both myself and the team.
I am just letting everyone down.

I have purposely not reacted to any of the criticisms directed at me up until now...but just on this one I would like to explain myself :
Banks are absolutely needed in order to fund research in the IA with only 5 cities, nobody can deny that.
I think a Civ that has 100% happy faces at 10% lux does not need Cathedrals before Hospitals Ridgelake, I totally disagree with you here.
Only Almarikh needs a courthouse (the other cities have only 2 corrupt shields out of 20 !) and that would gain only one or 2 uncorrupt shields.

As for the peace deal, well there are 2 reasons :
- first off in order to raze NYC I have had to stretch our forces to the max and we lost units to the Zulu counters they are not gassed yet, by continuing war we would lose a good deal of our forces (all majorly wounded) in the next few turns.
- also I thought the objectives were clear , at least I totally agreed with them :

IMHO, the key objectives over the next turns are: i) raze Zimbabwe, ii) try to safeguard the colony if possible, iii) march the army and cav all the way down to New York and pillage the horses and/or raze the city. That would end the cav supply semi-permanently. Making peace with the Zulu still in possession of horses could almost be a death sentence to our allies.

- My feeeling was that it was in the "spirit of this SG" to wage limited wars in order to avoid a runaway military win from a very agressive AI. Of course we could have gone on and on with crippling the Zulus, but wheres' the challenge in that ?
- Also I feel there is now empty space where the AIs can settle and develop. There is for example a Portuguese settler pair ready to poach an ex-zulu site, possibly their Horses !
- Finally I am surprised by Charis' comment on leaving decisions for the new Leader : I can find *multiple* examples in previous SGs where important decisions are made on one's final turn, its not always the case but it happens and I had never heard that it was "not done", my apologies !

In short, I disagree on every single point you guys make and the future looks pretty bleak for me in this team

 

[Ridgelake]

Skyfish,

Please, do not drop out. You are a valuable teammate and I enjoy playing with you. You, me, and Charis have been in numerous games together. No need to stop that over a simple disagreement.

I really do feel sorry if you took offense at my comments. I appologize to you for causing offense. I can tell you that I was not trying to put you down, but to help explain an alternative line of thinking.

To that end, lets debate the merits of cathedrals and courts versus banks in our current situation. Maybe we can all learn something from it. Here is my viewpoint:

We are running 90%-100% science. The other 10% is for luxes to kick off WLKD. We are running 0% income tax (revenue generation). This is fact. We will likely be running 80%-100% science for the rest of the game. So we will almost certainly not be running more than 20% income tax (if that much even) for a very long time.

Banks only increase income tax revenues (by 50%). They don't increase science or luxes. Since we are not running any income tax currently, the banks will only cost 1gpt each in maintenance. Now if we can get Smiths, then building banks would make sense for the times when we do start running income taxes.

In contrast, a courthouse in Tiwa will likely redeem 1 shield and 2 commerse. Not major improvements, but they are positive additions, not negative ones. Further, once we do get rails and hospitals, we will see even more benefit from the courthouse.

The cathedrals will allow us to reduce happiness and also generate culture. I agree that it is debatable whether we need them before hospitals. But with most culture buildings, it is better to build them early rather than late. I also suspect that they would have helped with WW. Heavan only knows when we will get attacked again.

Now lets talk about the peace deal. Under a normal game environment, the peace deal would have been a good call for all of the reasons outlined in your post. We were beat up and were losing units to counters.

My difficulty with the peace deal is that it may have been our only opportunity to apportion the lands as we saw fit. After regrouping for a few turns, we could have likely taken out the Zulu towns near the mongols so that we gave the mongols a boost. We could have opened up a couple more sites for the portugese to fill. I'm not talking about sites 15+ tiles away from their capitols that will be largely corrupt. But sites 5-10 tiles away that will be productive for them. These moves would have left the Zulus with areas in former America and Hittite. Doing these moves would have left all of the nations roughly equal. But now, the Zulus are still the top competitor, the Incans next with the Mongols and Portugese significant followers.

Just thinking about it, I don't think that it really matters. This game is basically won. No other civ can really hurt us if we keep our borders well defended. We will be the tech leader for the rest of the game. The only question is whether we will have resources.

Regardless. I appologize to you for making you upset. I need to remember that this is a game that we play for fun. An escape from all of the real troubles that we have to deal with. Can we shake on this and go forward with no hard feelings? Let's raise our glasses for what will be a successful game and what already is a good friendship.

 

[Ridgelake]

OBC-Maniac1-750AD (0)

Ridgelake takes over as President of the fine Babylonian democracy just as we have completed a wonderful campaign against the evil marauding Zulus. Let by such fine generals as Skyfish and Charis, the mighty Babylonian armies pushed back the evil ones and razed their capitol to the ground!

We are, naturally, the most advanced and cultured nation in the world. The un-bathed masses of foreigners must all respect the superiority of Babylonian knowledge and culture!

Looking over our cities, we are building many banks. As we are not running any income tax, we don’t really need those right now. Babylon is building the Military Academy. It is swapped to Newton’s to couple with the Colossus and Cop’s, due in 12. I swap Ta-Tu over to Smiths, though Karakorum is already building it. Due in 28 for us. Almar and Tiwa swap to courthouse. Kazan to cathedral and Olla to rifle.

4 muskets are upgraded to rifles.

IT Portugal does not want to renew our ROP. I kick in our excess iron and they do agree to renew. Incans take Vitcos.

760AD (1) Tiwa court to rifle. Olla rifle to rifle. I donate salt and ivory to the Portugese. Then I sell them metallurgy for all their gold (42). Donate banking and astronomy to them.

770AD (2) Almar court to cathedral. Damn, the Incans start Shakespeare. The idiot portugese have bypassed the horse and want to settle in the open area by the salt.

The Mongols become industrial and have Free Art. Same with the Incans.

IT Portugal offers an MPP. Uh. We can’t do that, can we? I decline. Instead, I give them democracy.

Mongols start Newton’s. .Zulu recaptures Vitcos.

780AD (3) Kazan cathedral to courthouse.

IT the Incans demand dyes. I would normally tell them to shove it. But I will give in because I don’t want to take away their power.

790AD (4)

800AD (5) Mongols are trying to get another settler to the open area.

Tiwa and Olla both make rifles, start more.

810AD (6) Our monopoly on Nationalism still holds.

820AD (7) Steam is due next turn. Adjust slider. Workers are ready around Babylon.

IT The portugese settle to claim silks and can get horses upon expansion.

830AD (8) Steam comes in, we have 1 coal, on the hill between Babylon and Tiwa.

Incans have 1 source. Zulus have 4, including 1 under Philadelphia. I don’t think the Mongols have any.

Industrialization due in 7 @ 100% science.

Tiwa’s borders expand versus Huamanga, giving us a full 21 tiles.

840AD (9) Railing….

850AD (10) Newton’s completes next turn in Babylon. Factory prebuilds have been started in Almar and Kazan. Babylon and Olla could probably skim workers before starting on a pre-build. Much to my chagrin, I don’t think that Babylon will be able to get Shakespeare. .That would have been wonderful to get with this scenario. We could probably research Music after factories and put Bach’s in there. Pre-railroad help, Ta-Tu is 17 turns to Smiths. Karakorum has a head-start on it, but won’t get rails. We are up Nationalism and Steam on the world.


Have fun, Charis!

Bountiful Babylonians

 

[Charis]

Missed the post when it first came up, just saw it now. Will finish RBC6 game tonight then start this one. "Got it"

(Wow! Our tiny nation is up Nationalism AND Steam on the whole world?! )

Charis

 

[Charis]

General Charis was simply delighted with the recent progress of his
Babylonian comrades, as they dealt a righteous blow in the belly of
the Zulu giant, razing Zimbabwe itself!!! Not only that, we cut deep
into their heartland and liberated New York (and their horses!)
Now we're actually on prebuilds for factories and trying for wonders,
so life seems good in the Babylonian nation. Lovely rails were springing
up across the nation!

It seemed good to try to carry out the following in this reign:
- Protect our saltpeter colony
- Take a building breather while keeping vigilant defense
- Move us forward in the wonder department

Regarding Shakespeare... Ridgelake is right, it doesn't look bright.
With our Smith work in Ta-Tu we have 271 shields toward 600. Shakespeare is
450 shields, and that city is 20spt (Babylon is 26). Newton truly complements
Babylon, so letting it finish there next turn makes total sense. However,
if we got Free Artistry in the next 8 turns, it would finish in Ta-Tu on the 9th.
Given research on Industrialization is done in 5 or 6, and Free Artistry would
take 4 (or just buy it) - we just might have a shot. Hopefull Smith and ST will
finish before others get Industrialization, as that will break the cascade.

[0] 850 - I push sci to get Industrialization in 5. Swap two cities on rifles
to factory prebuilds. Tis tempting to sell our salt to the Incans, but the
chance of losing it too high.
IBT we renew Incan ivory. Newton completes.

[1] 860 - Railin'
IBT Karakorum completes Smith's. Hrm...

[2] 870 - Ta-Tu swaps ok to Mil Academy for now, I just hope ST isn't wiped
out by a cascade. IBT Renew spice deal with Incans too, since they're at
war with Zulu still.
[3] 880 - Railin' . IBT tis quaint for our cav to look over and see MDI and longbow
slugfests.
[4] 890 - Military railnet is complete, now back to key production squares!
Industrialization due next turn.
IBT - Incans sign Portual up in alliance vs Zulus. (Ruh roh) Then the
Portuguese bring in the Mongols vs Zulu. The dogpile continues!
While all these clowns fight, we're going to have factories and coal plants
done while they knock themselves senseless.
[5] 900 - Lost our silk supply with Incans, let's renegotiate it. At 17gpt it's
much less than a lux slider notch. Now... tech choice. We can self-research
Free Artistry at a leisurely rate and still make it in 4 turns (with +141 gpt to
boot), at a cost of 560g. Alas, with our tarnished rep, no other real choice,
as for credit we could only buy it for several thousand gold (which we don't have)
Four turns it is. Cities all swap to factories except Ta-Tu, due 4 to 9 turns from now.
IBT - We renew sale of cheap wines to Mongols. Tiwanaku borders expand, alas so
does borders of Dalanzadgad which now engulf our eastern saltpeter colony.

INTERESTING NEWS! Saltpeter colony on our west dries up, BUT it moves
into our territory - though perhaps not ours for good. It's now in the mountain
to the direct North of Ta-Tu. Actually, I don't think a Tabriz expansion could
take it, so it looks to stay ours. (Good thing we didn't sell the colony salt )
Tis unconnected, so I send a few workers to hook it up.

[6] 910 - The General Charis had read the memoirs of a infamous economist by the
name 'Ca-Ching'. Although we could not exceed 4 turns to research Free Artistry,
but could get 4 turns with 40% slider, he nevertheless kicked it up to 90%.
(Anytime one spent over double what one 'seemed' to, it was known as a Ca-Ching
maneuver!) Indeed, it paid off!! Though this did not break the 4 turn cap, it
gave us almost all the beakers needed to buy the tech, and so now the AI will
part for it for about 260g rather than over a thousand. Not a bad savings for one
turn of Ca-Ching research. We buy it from Incans for 264g.

With that brief diversion we can now get back to 'real' research, Corporation
due in 6. How is Ta-Tu looking for Shakespeare's now? 3 turns! Two with some
roading next turn!

[7] 920 - Gift FA to Portugal. Actually... Physics too. Railroading at Ta-tu so that...
... IBT Shakespeare's completes in Ta-Tu

We see a stack of Portugal crusaders come up to Lagos, the other saltpeter city
of the Zulu, and they kill one musket and move more up. We have to renew our
Horses for Gems deal with Mongols, and have to add RoP to get it.
Mid-world, there's a big struggle near Vilcos for the Zulu salt city, but
the Incans keep dribbling up one or two knights at a time, never sufficient force.

[8] 930 - With Shakespeare in hand, the happy city of Tatu starts Factory, due in 9.
IBT We renew sale of Furs to Incans for 10gpt.
The Portuguese capture the southern Salt city of Lagos

[9] 940 - Babylon finishes factory. Since we're a shoe-in for Hoovers, we
don't necessarily need coal plants everywhere, but Babylon can use one so it
can spit out Suffrage. Tiwanaku will start one too, vetoable.
IBT First pollution hits two cities working on coal plants, ironic. We
definitely need more workers, but nothing seemed higher priority than factories first.

[10] 950AD - I was about to say we're STILL up Nationalism and Steam Power, but the
Mongols and Incans have shown up with Nationalism. Woo! Definitely do NOT sell this
very pricey and useful tech to the Zulu!! Note that Portugal's power now rivals the
Mongols! It would be interesting but not without risk to gift Portugal all the way
up to our era AND Nationalism. But that's more a call for the team or our next
leader. Corporation is due in 2 for us. Probably want Electricity next.
Our one cav on mtn down south is just an observer. I woke him up this turn
just so you know he's there, but feel free to re-fortify or to bring home.

Note, the Zulu peace treaty is coming due. I would renew for free for sure, as
we have no quarter to be getting into a fight right now. Likewise, Portual RoP+Iron
deal is something you probably want to renew for their sake.

Overall, a solid building turn (nice for a change after my recent set of
carnage after carnage games), and a suprise wonder for us.

(Maniac)
Ridgelake
Charis
(Matt_G)
Meldor <-- UP
Skyfish <-- On deck

Save file 950AD

Good luck,
Charis

 

[Ridgelake]

Good turn, Charis. Glad that one of our towns got Shakes. But it is a bit anti-clamictic being in Ta-Tu.

I would like to see us put Bach's in Babylon. Music hasn't been researched. It is probably 4 turns for us. A nice diversion to add more culture and happiness to our superior cities!

Suffrage should also come aboard. Really, we should get the rest of the wonders

Skyfish, why don't you play the next turn. I read in another thread that Meldor is out for another week.

 

[meldor]

I am back and ready to be put back into the turn order...let me know when to go...

 

[Skyfish]

Take it now Mel

 

[Ridgelake]

A reminder to all

(Maniac)
Ridgelake
Charis
(Matt_G)
Meldor <-- UP and Overdue for an "I got it"
Skyfish <-- On deck

BTW, I will be away from the computer from Sunday through Wednesday.

 

[meldor]

Ok, I see it and will try and get it out of the way tonight or tomorrow at the latest...

 

[meldor]

950 AD (0)
I look around, not much has changed since I last held the reigns except the fortunes of the Zulu and Mongols. There doesn't seem to be much for me to do. I would like to get us some more workers, all of our cities could stand a worker skim. I don't see why we don't put coal plants in all our cities as it will boast them until we get Hoover's. I will contemplate it.
(I) The Portuguese want to renew the RoP if we give them Iron, set let it be. The Zulu's come to beg us not to join the Dogpile for an additional 20 turn, done as well. So it seems that if nothing funny happens I should be really bored.

960 AD (1)
I get to mine a hill and fortify the Cav to the south.
(I) The Portuguese take Boston! Kazan Factory->Bank.

970 AD (2)
Turn Science down to 10%.
(I) We get Corporation and start Electricity. Babylon Coal Plant->Worker, Almarikh Factory->Worker. Forgot to skim a worker in Kazan.

980 AD (3)
I get to rail one more square!
(I) Babylon Worker->Bank, Tiwanaku Coal Plant->worker, Almarikh worker->Coal Plant.

990 AD (4)
I turn Science up to get Electricity in 12 after keeping it at minimum for one turn to get the money to run a negative balance. This shave one turn of research off of getting it.
(I) Tiwanaku Coal Worker->Bank, Ollantaytambo Coal Plant->worker.

1000 AD (5)
More worker madness.
(I) The mongols come looking for a trade embargo, instead I sell them dyes for 5gpt. Ollantaytambo Worker->Bank

1010 AD (6)
Did I mention that I dislike non-industrious workers, and non-industrious slaves are even worse.
(I) I don;t think we have to worry about the Porteguese anymore, they have taken two more Zulu cities and now the Zulus are on the verge of hitting the slippery slope that they once had everyone else on. Babylon Bank->Stock Exchange, Ta-Tu Factory->Worker.

1020 AD (7)
I like playing with stacks of workers.
(I) The Zulu lose two more towns, one to the Mongols and one to the Porteguese. Ta-Tu Worker->Coal Plant, Kazan Bank->Worker

1030 AD (8)
Oh look, pollution! I get to do something besides rail. With the Banks coming online, I turn science up another notch and shave another turn off.
(I) Tiwanaku Bank->Stock Exchange, Kazan Worker->Coal Plant,

1040 AD (9)
Working the rails...
(I) Almarikh Coal Plant->Worker, Ollantaytambo Bank->Stock Exchange

1050 AD (10)
Holy Smokes, is it the end of my turn already!

Man, while not very much excitement we are streaching out the lead. The Zulu are down to only three cities witht he Mongols and Porteguese eating them up. I can' say as I want to see them go, but I won't mourn them either. They have served to keep the others occupied long enough to allow us to build up our infrastructure.

I was thinking Banks->Stock Exchages->Wall Street. Then maybe get ready for hospitals by putting in the rest of the happy infrastructure and maybe adding harbors. It was too soon to start prebuilds and no one is in danger of snagging US from us. We still can use the Palace, US and MilAcad.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Maniac1-1050AD.zip

 

[Skyfish]

Glad to see the lil guys getting back at the Zulus...and glad we did not hit them harder than what we did last time

Regardless. I apologize to you for making you upset. I need to remember that this is a game that we play for fun. An escape from all of the real troubles that we have to deal with. Can we shake on this and go forward with no hard feelings? Let's raise our glasses for what will be a successful game and what already is a good friendship.

By the way I forgot to thank you Ridge for this and apologies accepted of course, I was in a bad mood on that day apparently

 

[Skyfish]

Hey I did not realize I was up sorry

I got it now !

 

[Ridgelake]

Glad my appology was expected. I think we both over reacted a bit.

Look forward to seeing your next turns.

Ridge

 

[Skyfish]

It wasn't "expected"... but its definitely accepted

 

[Skyfish]

Game sure looks good, I agree with Coalplants everywhere. I will start some prebuilds I want ToE and US.

1060 : Ivory deal renewed with Incas for 7gpt instead of 9
With 100% happyness across our huge empire at 10% lux I dont feel the need to invest in happiness infra yet..
Except maybe in Ta-Tu. Baylon completes StockEx and goes on prebuild for WallStreet. Nah lets get a collosseum first
in 2 turns sicne we might not have 5 StockEX soon enough for the prebuild to last.

1080 : Babylon is on US (prebuild or not) Electricity found, Medicine possible in 8 turns at +2gpt, the AIs seemingly all went for Communism/Fascism
(only Mongosl have it) or Steam.
I doubt very much they will have Medicine before we get it.

Am busy re-organizing our cities to both maximize shields now before Hospitals and also prepare food rich tiles for post-hospital era.
Ta-Tu gets a whole revamp!

1100: We renew lux deals for same prices. Skimming workers out of Almarikh still, we dont need a StockEx there for WallStreet.
Talking of it Ollia goes on prebuild for it (or something else will see how this pans out)

1120: Ta-Tu reaches size 13, with hills, mountains,grass and plains the MM choices are indefinite, you can set to min shields necessary and
max food growth.

The Zulus are now down to 1 city, time to put a stop to this!
I cancel our RoP with the Mongols and also the Gems for Ivory+horses deal [eek] I then go to Portugal and trade ToG for their Incense.
I then give the Horse and Ivory to the Zulus. A desperate move to try to keep Zulus alive...

1130 : Gracious Portuguese come and threaten for Nationalism Ungrateful git ! I refuse they back down.

1140 : 5th StockEx completes in Ta-Tu, jsut in time for the prebuild of Babylon, US is switched to Ollia ready in 13 turns.

1150 : Wall Street completes, we only have 116g so we dont get much money from WallStreet Tiwana has all improvements so it goes on Wealth
We now can get Medicine in 2 turns at 88gpt.
I did not have time to finish Ollan reconfig it could use a mined plain (I RRed it first)
We dont really need 2 prebuilds but worse case scenario MilAcademy can be used for a hospital, anyway its totally vetoable.
Next I would say Sanitation and Hospitals, then race to ToE...

There you go Ridge !
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Maniac1-OBC,_1150_AD.zip

 

[Ridgelake]

Originally posted by Skyfish

It wasn't "expected"... but its definitely accepted

Doh!

Thats what I get for replying to a message after riding in the car for 8 hours listening to a near-incessant medley of Elmo, Raffi, and Thomas the Train videos.....

Anyway, I got it.