Mansa: the worst spiritual leader?

also, i consider financial leaders space-race junkies.
I love this expression :lol:

JujuLautre i believe the following comment by uberfish meant to point out that it is *worse* for a non-financial leader to switch from free speech/US -> to something else because for a financial leader cottages dont need the civics to be as effective as for non-financial leaders.
Yep, I understood that perfectly. I should have written "TWO valid points" in y comments ;)

First: I hear the game is completely different - new techs, new wonders, new traits and new units - this renders me unable to properly decide if spiritual is still as nice as in Vanilla.
I did not wish to discuss the use of spiritual compared to other traits, but its (I think) lack of interaction with financial. Considering this, I don't feel the changes made to spiritual have any incidence here.

Second: Explain "turns you don't whip", please? :king:
Percy did it, thanks to him

I think the OP has a basic assumption: if you are a financial leader you are "forced" to cottage, and if you cottage a lot you don't want to change civics. I believe this assumption is simply not right.

[...]

I don't see why being financial you have to be stuck with US/free speech/emancipation. So because you play philosophical leader and use specialist economy you have to be stuck with representation, caste, pacifism? The reality is regardless you are using CE or SE, sometimes the situations will dictate you on using the secondary civics (e.g. when war weariness too high, you need police state).
Actually I think my problems is here. I have absolutely no problems to switch civics when running high specialists, but I have when running cottages. And actually, why should I have? I have to plan more carefully :p


In fact, it is because there is a relatively optimal civic combo for a particular playing style you want to switch back to this combo whenever possible, and this process is made smooth playing a spiritual leader.
Very valid argument, thanks for providing it

Mansa is a top tier leader.
Yep, I did not deny this :rolleyes:

Finally, it seems everyone agrees on the uses of spiritual I provided, and that's good news to me: it seems I'm not *that* hopeless. Just that I should try to show more flexibility when cottaging :)

About the temporary jump to caste/pacifism able with Mansa+cottaging, do you do it only for your GP farm? Or do you usually dedicate one or two other cities to be able to make the jump, basically, creating other GP farms?
 
About the temporary jump to caste/pacifism able with Mansa+cottaging, do you do it only for your GP farm? Or do you usually dedicate one or two other cities to be able to make the jump, basically, creating other GP farms?
Without trying to answer your question in full generality, one tactic that's possible with Caste System is to use ANY city with population and food as a temporary GP farm to generate one great person at a certain time. This can be done faster and with less dependence on food if Caste System is abused by running the maximum number of specialists and starving by one pop per turn, the maximum loss.
 
Without trying to answer your question in full generality, one tactic that's possible with Caste System is to use ANY city with population and food as a temporary GP farm to generate one great person at a certain time. This can be done faster and with less dependence on food if Caste System is abused by running the maximum number of specialists and starving by one pop per turn, the maximum loss.

Yep, I thought about that. But the thing is that when you cottage a lot, you usually don't have too much food surplus. Sure, you can starve your city even to the point of reducing its pop, but it seems a little bit too extreme for me. As a matter of fact, I don't like to reduce the population of my cottage cities ;)
 
Yep, I thought about that. But the thing is that when you cottage a lot, you usually don't have too much food surplus. Sure, you can starve your city even to the point of reducing its pop, but it seems a little bit too extreme for me. As a matter of fact, I don't like to reduce the population of my cottage cities ;)

Well, not every city is going to be cottaged, is it? With spiritual cities become more versatile, because you can change the civics to suit different ways of using cities. You can switch between slavery and caste system so you can whip some cities and get GPs with other cities, and can swap between nationalism and free speech and vassalage, depending on if you need cannon fodder, highly promoted troops, or a financial advantage.

Basically, both spiritual and financial provide you with flexibility, so that's really only valuable when you base your play around taking advantage of that flexibility. Spiritual gives you the ability to use ALL the civics by switching for short bursts when they're valuable, and financial gives you the flexibility to focus on something else while still keeping up in finances, in addition to focusing on cottages for a tech lead.
 
Well, not every city is going to be cottaged, is it?

I think you hit right on the nail here. Considering that you are financial, if you have a "cottageable" city, why not cottage it and get the money and science rolling?

I agree that spiritual provide flexibility, but not at all for financial. Cottages are not very flexible imho.
 
I didn't read all this I just wanted to say one thing after reading the headline..

Isn't Mansa Musa widely considered the biggest tech whore in the game? How can anyone say he's bad? Makes no sense. Name one person that techs faster then Mansa Musa with a CE. He also starts with Mining/Wheel and because of Spiritual it also makes him one of the best rushers in the game, regardless if you use his skirmishers or axeman.

:confused:
 
Spiritual trait besides for the obvious advantages, basically just makes you more efficient then another civ, it saves you hammers, commerce, beakers, it starts to add up by the end of the game. This is why Mansa Musa is one of the fastest techers in the game, even more so then other financial leaders. Not only is he financial but because of the spiritual trait it makes him more efficient then the other financial leaders so over the course of a game he builds slightly more commerce, production, beakers.

It goes together perfectly if you want to be the fastest techer in the game.
 
Justinian is only good because he has the horses version of a prat and Elizabeth is just over powered lol I could see her getting nerf''d a bit like Augustus :(
 
Well, not every city is going to be cottaged, is it? With spiritual cities become more versatile, because you can change the civics to suit different ways of using cities. You can switch between slavery and caste system so you can whip some cities and get GPs with other cities, and can swap between nationalism and free speech and vassalage, depending on if you need cannon fodder, highly promoted troops, or a financial advantage.

Basically, both spiritual and financial provide you with flexibility, so that's really only valuable when you base your play around taking advantage of that flexibility. Spiritual gives you the ability to use ALL the civics by switching for short bursts when they're valuable, and financial gives you the flexibility to focus on something else while still keeping up in finances, in addition to focusing on cottages for a tech lead.

Absolutely agreed. And you need a few farms anyway, even in CE, so that city growth isn't uselessly slow, and for a fair slab of the game you won't be using all the available terrain anyway, so a few extra farms (preferably situated in city overlap) won't do any harm. With a Spiritual hybrid, you just have a couple more farms, and then ever so briefly abandon your cottages during periods of caste system/pacifism to generate massive GPPs. You're still getting almost the full power of cottages, plus a powerful GP generation bonus.
This is not Mansa-specific, but when running CE under a Spiritual leader, I will generally use my CS/Pacifism bursts to turn pretty much every city where it's even vaguely feasible into a temporary GP farm. Over a few bursts, they really add up, to the point where pretty much every city can produce 1 or even 2 GPs over the course of the game, aside from the GP farm(s) that are spewing them out. Takes some micromanagement to juggle, but the results are very impressive.
And even with Mansa, in that brief period between Constitution and Democracy, Representation is the civic of choice for Spiritualists and there's very little economic penalty for going completely nuts with specialists (especially when emancipation will soon come along to help compensate for lost development), so that you can finish off the accumulated GPPs in a bunch of cities and then switch back to cottages pretty much forever.

Something I've recently discovered for some Spiritual leaders, but particularly suited to Mansa, is the atheistic Shwedagon Paya beeline. Try to secure gold or marble, beeline aesthetics and hope you pick up a foreign religion along the way (you're pretty much bound to). Run huge amounts of cottages all along the way. Then you can quickly pop a Great Scientist to build an academy without having to worry about bulbing Philosophy or anything, pop over to OR and whip out a bunch of missionaries to get your religion everywhere, and then do all the lovely religion things without spending a whole load of commerce on religious techs, or switch to FR and get a nice tech boost without annoying anyone. Plus aesthetics is good for trade and you get first dibs at the other GP generation wonders (parthenon/GL/NE).
 
since more than one people told me that, I think I will have to apply it :P

tip for myself: irrigate more, irrigate more, irrigate more; incidently: build more workers, build more workers...
 
Mansa Musa is at a extreme disadvantage in getting one of the early three religions (because he doesn't start with Myst) but for the rest he has a good chance. Financial tends to give a good tech acquisition rate.
 
OK, Here is my take on Musa.

1) Great leader and I think the two traits work very well together.

2) He is definitely a tech maniac. Space should be his destination from the first turn, and it is best for him to get advanced ASAP.

3) The spiritual is way underestimated. On marathon (what I play so I will discuus from that point) you have 2-3 turns anarchy for a normal non-spiritual AI. Slavery (2 turns), Heritary Rule (2 turns), Vassalage (2 turns), OR or theocracy (2 turns), Mercatilism or Free Market (2 turns), Free Reilgion (2 turns), Beuracracy (2 turns), US + emancipation (3 turns) which amounts to a minimum 17 turns or a 1 tech advantage. Again this is minimal. Musa gets at least 1-2 tech edge over the game which compounds with financial.

4) Fast temples, and you get get multiple in each city. That extra happiness means one less military unit in that city if using heritary rule. Plus it opens up a priest per temple (adding 2 hammers and 1 gold).

5) I have noticed that Musa on random starts has a tendency to start near a precious metal (gold/gems/silver).

6) Granted he cannot get early religions easily, but he has a great chance for Confucsism, Taoism, Theology because he can get oof to fast tech leads.

7) His UU is one of the best early game defenders, allowing more time to research and build citieswithout worrying as much about barbarians or agressive AIs.

8) His UB grants 10% gold which is awesome. It's building almost everycity has which grants three benefits now (Happiness, production, gold), compared with AIs financial UB such as Stock exchange (only gold) and the Mall (gold and happiness).

So Musa techs faster than anyone else (arguably second to elizabeth or Darius) and he does it earlier than anyone else. You can go to space, go culturally by grabbing most mid religions and getting wonder with the tech edge, or war monger with a technically suprior army.

All that said I have played one warlords and one BTS marathon/huge map with him. The warlords game was my worse victory (I played all 36 leaders) a cultural by 1 turn over a Saladin space win. The BTS was a domination loss when I had 2/3's of the space parts built. Go figure.
 
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