Many problems with the World Editor.

[Danicela]

I've just analyzed the possibilities of the World Editor, and I find it very limited in comparison with other games' World Editor, there are many things that you can't do or that you don't have :

-No Cancel button if you do a mistake. (see my other topic :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167560

-No "randomizer" of resources (see my 2nd other topic :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168671

-No setting how many players we want in the World Editor in itself.
=> It should be a button in the Word Editor that opens you a "Player Editor" which enables you to add new players, to remove old players, and to change their civilization and leader.
The only way you have to do it, it is to take a custom game, in what you open the Editor after starting... but you are not able to take an already made map, and to change it on the players/civlizations point of view, the players and civilizations are already chosen and you can't change them, this is bad.
You have to remake the whole map if you want to change the players/civ and so you have to choose them very carefully at the beginning.. and what if you did a mistake or you want to change the players/civ? You can't, you should be able to do it...

-No "randomizer" of civilizations => Indeed, you can't change the civilizations of an already made map, you can't change the leaders, and even you can't set the players with a "random" civilization which is chosen at the beginning of each game of this map : The civilizations and players are already set, and you can't do nothing to change that, this is limited.

-No "randomizer" of the starting location => In a random map, all is random, the starting location of each player too.
It should be a randomizer of the starting location in pre-defined melee (= not scenario) maps too, where you put 0 units but only land & resources, and the calculator of the distance between each player would be the same as for a standard melee map.
But this is a choice, so we are still able to make pre-defined starting location, BUT, if we want, we should be able to set that we want random starting location for every player. (this mode can be activated only if there are 0 pre-placed units on the map)

I think there are other things I didn't say because I don't know them yet or because I have forgotten them now... I'll continue the list with a manner or another. I am disappointed by this editor..

See the poll.

 

[Salamandre]

I've just analyzed the possibilities of the World Editor, and I find it very limited in comparison with other games' World Editor, there are many things that you can't do or that you don't have :

-No Cancel button if you do a mistake. (see my other topic :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167560

This would be a must, indeed.

-No "randomizer" of resources (see my 2nd other topic :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168671

Unfortunatelly, the ressouces placement are hardcoded. Around each player, for balance purposes, as everyone complained about this in previous CIV. So a randomizer will destroy all that they worked on.

-No setting how many players we want in the World Editor in itself.
=> It should be a button in the Word Editor that opens you a "Player Editor" which enables you to add new players, to remove old players, and to change their civilization and leader.

There is not really world editor, but INGAME editor. But it is not so difficult to create the list of players you wish at the start. Thus, you can remove them, just erase their units=gone.

-No "randomizer" of civilizations => Indeed, you can't change the civilizations of an already made map, you can't change the leaders, and even you can't set the players with a "random" civilization which is chosen at the beginning of each game of this map : The civilizations and players are already set, and you can't do nothing to change that, this is limited.

See previous, this is INGAME editor.but would be nice if we could have it. I doubt Firaxis is willing to redesign the whole thing.

I am disappointed by this editor..

See the poll.

The editor is amazing. I suggest you to look in creation/customization forums to realise what already has been done with. Much more important than erasing or adding some leader, which can be easily defined from the beggining. But the "undo" feature lacks, I agree.

In the editor, you cant see the most important of it: SDK and python. Those are the beasts out now.

 

[KHSOLO]

I think an undo button is in order.

 

[King Flevance]

I voted for all of the options as I could see how they all would be useful. I don't use WB much, so I hadn't noticed these things. I have actually only used it when I got tired of razing roads before taking over a city. I have started to cover the minimap with a small notepad paper and use WB to pillage my own roads that I want gone. So my experience in WB is opening it, clicking on road and right clicking what I want gone and then exiting.

However as I read the options in the poll, I take it these things are missing. All are useful but I think the undo button should be in there, I figured one was already. This must be a pain to someone building a map and messes up having to retrace themself sometimes. I voted evry option and also a vote for "I dont care for this sort of thing". (You said check all that apply.)

 

[Justinianus]

In my opinion, this "World Editor" or "In-game Editor" is a complete ruin. Especially compared to the CivIII editor. Let's hope that Warlords will feature a better editor than the current one (along with High Council and era-specific leaderheads...).

Anyway, can someone tell me how to use the damn River Placement Mode? It is really making me angry, I can't believe that they couldn't make a more user-friendly editor!

 

[Veteranewbie]

Yeah current worldbuilder is weak compare to Civ3, to name a few:

1. Can change name and char of Civ

2. Can't use it to create simple mod

3. River placement is damn hard

4. Gold edit for civ can't exceed 5000, culture can't exceed 500? (can't remember)

5. Auto-raze a city if you put a unit of another warring factors on it

 

[Danicela]

Unfortunatelly, the ressouces placement are hardcoded. Around each player, for balance purposes, as everyone complained about this in previous CIV. So a randomizer will destroy all that they worked on.

Why it would be negative?
If you see my topic, i suggest to keep the last system (= to place resources), so we have to choose : pre-placed or random resources, or even pre-placed + random resources.
This is not a problem for you because it don't alter the pre-placing resource part of the editor.

There is not really world editor, but INGAME editor.

What I comment is the Word Editor, ingame editor = world editor, i don't see the problem.

But it is not so difficult to create the list of players you wish at the start.

How do you do it ?

Thus, you can remove them, just erase their units=gone.

Even if the civilization have 0 units, the civilization is still there, we can't erase the player itself.

but would be nice if we could have it. I doubt Firaxis is willing to redesign the whole thing.

This is a necessary thing, and make a randomizer for civlizations isn't hard, you just have to take the random map game system ...

The editor is amazing.

Why ?
In comparison with other editors of other games, this is very limited, you can't do whatever you want.

I suggest you to look in creation/customization forums to realise what already has been done with.

I'm talking about missing things in the World Editor, ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY things, not of another.

Much more important than erasing or adding some leader, which can be easily defined from the beggining

Adding, erasing, modifying the players is something very important.
Easy defined at the beginning of the game, yes.
But in the World Editor in itself, and after the map is begun, you can't change it.

In the editor, you cant see the most important of it: SDK and python. Those are the beasts out now.

This is not editor but modding. => You make them outside the game, and you have to change the whole game to make them, not only a map.
SDK = ?
I am talking only about the World Editor.

I have actually only used it when I got tired of razing roads before taking over a city. I have started to cover the minimap with a small notepad paper and use WB to pillage my own roads that I want gone.

This is a very ugly method, you can easily see something you shouldn't see, moreover, this is cheat.
But you can't open the World Editor once the game is started...

I voted evry option and also a vote for "I dont care for this sort of thing". (You said check all that apply.)

Normally,
You give your opinion about the World Editor,
OR,
You say that this thing has no importance for you.
You can't vote for both.
You can't be interested by World Editor and giving your opinion and being not interested in the same time.

Justianius : Same thing, don't vote for both things, World Editor OR no interested.

 

[Bushface]

The river placement scheme is utterly horrible unless you like your rivers running in a straight line, which I don't. It's particularly annoying when you are, after much effort, getting a nice big river fairly close to the sea, then make a placement error, and have to erase the whole thing and start again from the source.
Otherwise, the only thing that seems to be missing is the ability to add extra civs.

 

[Danicela]

Otherwise, the only thing that seems to be missing is the ability to add extra civs.

And to remove civs, and to modify them ..
and all what I have said in the main post...

 

[Salamandre]

I've just analyzed the possibilities of the World Editor, and I find it very limited in comparison with other games' World Editor.

Undo feature is missing but the others actually are in. I cant let you say for the second time that the editor is very limited. There is no world editor but INGAME editor, which is different despite the wrong name.

INGAME means that you have to start a game to use it, remember in CIV3 we could open an empty world builder and add everything from scratch. Not here.


INI.file cheat=chipotle


Effect - Code
Display all console window command lines - help
Stop music - Sound.noMusic
Reload audio scripts - Sound.reload
Stop Soundscape from playing - Sound.stopSoundScape
Play sound - Sound.play string [filename]
Finds entities with black emissivity - Graphics.FindBlackPlotsAndCities
Hide attachables - Graphics.HideAttachables
Force light update on all entities - Graphics.ForceLightingUpdate
Rebuild terrain and lighting - Graphics.ReBuildTerrain
Set Hill scale - Graphics.SetHillScale [floating number=""]
Set Peak scale - Graphics.SetPeakScale [floating number=""]
Set water plane height - Graphics.setWaterHeight [floating number=""]
Set render depth for quad tree - Graphics.quadTreeDepth [integer]
Toggle water - Graphics.toggleWater
Display terrain - Graphics.displayTerrain
Toggle grids - Graphics.toggleGridMode
Dump texture palette - Graphics.showTexturePalette
Set texturing - Graphics.setTextureMode
Set wireframe - Graphics.setWireframe
Morph the globeview count times - Profile.morphGlobe [integer]
Rebuild city indicated number of times - Profile.rebuildCity [x coordinate=""] [y coordinate=""] [integer]
Rebuild plot indicated number of times - Profile.rebuildPlot [x coordinate=""] [y coordinate=""] [integer]
Dump animation information to debugging window - Profile.dumpAnimLog
Set minimum time to capture spikes. (set to 0 to disable spikelock) - Profile.setSpikeThreshold [milliseconds]
Dump console command history - Console.History
Write HTML documentation for the current console commands - Console.CreateDocumentation [filename]
Clear the console - Console.Clear
Display current logging status - Log.status
Toggle logging - Log.toggle
Clear the log file - Log.clear
Erase units and cities from map - Map.empty
Fill map with units and cities for performance testing - Map.fill
Replot Goodies - Map.generateGoodies
Replot Bonuses - Map.generateBonuses
Replot Features - Map.generateFeatures
Replot Rivers - Map.generateRivers
Erase Rivers, Features, Bonuses and Goodies - Map.eraseGameElements
Replace Rivers, Features, Bonuses and Goodies - Map.replaceGameElements
Change the active landscape info - Map.setActiveLandscapeID [landscape number=""]
Erase all plots - Map.erasePlots
Reload Game Text xml files - Xml.reloadGameText
Reload Civ4TerrainSettings.xml - Xml.reloadLandscapeInfo
Reload Civ4ArtDefines.xml - Xml.reloadArtDefines
Toggle output of texture loads/accesses to debug output - Game.toggleTextureAccessInfo
Force AI to play for indicated number of turns - Game.AIPlay [integer]
Create sequences associated with the selected unit - Game.createSelectedUnitKFs
Free sequences associated with the selected unit - Game.freeSelectedUnitKFs
Save WorldBuilder save description file - Game.saveWorldBuilderSave [filename]
Toggle Animation Test Tool - Game.toggleAnimationTest
Show GFC directory chooser - Game.gfcDirChooser
Show GFC file dlg window - Game.gfcfiledlg
Show GFC test popup - Game.testGFC [integer]
Show test popup - Game.testFont bool bEnable
Show the Python test popup - Game.testPythonPopup
Show test popup - Game.testPopup
Scroll to the bottom - Game.scrollBottom
Scroll to the top - Game.scrollTop
Clear the listbox below - Game.clear
Display the help popup - Game.helpScreen
Toggle debug mode - Game.toggleDebugMode
Debugging - Game.showWBPalette bool bCreate
Compute md5 checksum for the directory tree specified - App.calcFolderChechsum [directory]
Set debugging value - App.setMooseDbg1 [integer]
TGA full screen shot in Screenshot folder. (requires "AllowScreenShots=1" in "CivilizationIV.ini") - App.takeFullScreenShot
TGA screen shot in Screenshot directory. (requires "AllowScreenShots=1" in "CivilizationIV.ini") - App.takeScreenShot
Set maximum frame rate. (0 to disable) - App.setMaxFrameRate [floating number=""]
Update existing value in the ini file - App.setIniFile [group key=""], [key] [value]
Crash game - App.crash
Return the application link time - App.getBuildTime
Test player unit iteration - Player.testUnitIter [integer]
Change players gold. (0 is active player) - Player.changeGold [player number=""] [value]
Set players gold (0 is active player) - Player.setGold [player number=""] [value]

It is still poor the editor?


Now, ingame editor+python+SDK+XML= CIV editing. Its a whole thing. Which games editors are better that CIV ones, please name them, I am curious.

See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3399655#post3399655 for more infos.

 

[Yarmoss]

It definetly needs an "Undo" button.

River placement is a fricking nightmare. Its a totally stupid sytem.

I dont use world builder often, so maybe I just lack experience, but I find the whole thing extremely complicated and frustrating as there are no instructions, tutorial or even help on what a button does when you mouse over it.

 

[Danicela]

but the others actually are in

Lol! Where?
They aren't.

I cant let you say for the second time that the editor is very limited

It is very limited.
There are many basic things that you can't do, and what I have quoted here are the most important lacking things, you can do only few things in comparison with the editors of other current games.
The World Editor is limited by these points and by others.

There is no world editor but INGAME editor, which is different despite the wrong name.

No, this is the World Editor, you can edit the world, see the words used for the name...
It is indeed ingame, but it is the world editor too, as it is called in the game...
I did not invented this name.

INGAME means that you have to start a game to use it, remember in CIV3 we could open an empty world builder and add everything from scratch. Not here.

So What ?
It is a World Editor that is "ingame".
Even if you have to start a game, it is a world editor.

It is still poor the editor?

I talked about the World Editor, not modding, but this file contains only useless or little useful things. (and as it is a file outside the game, this is a kind of mod)

Now, ingame editor+python+SDK+XML= CIV editing. Its a whole thing

Python, SDK (=?), and XML are modding.
World Editor is editing.
Don't confuse.

Which games editors are better that CIV ones, please name them, I am curious.

Warcraft III's one is fabulous, you can do almost whatever you want, there are only few limits.
And the things that you can't do with Civ4's Editor should be modifiable...
Even in Age of Empires I's editor that was created in 1997 I think, you can do these things : Random civilization, adding/removing civilizations, etc.
The minimum things aren't done in the Civ4's Editor, why searching to do other pitiful things when you can't do the basic things?
Civ4's Editor lacks the most important things that all the other games already have.

 

[Salamandre]

Lol! Where?
They aren't.

You need glasses? I wrote ALL commands you can do through world editor. You CAN have ressource randomizer and such more. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...55#post3399655

And it is not modding, but typing commands WHILE you are in World editor. CIV Is an about customization game , not editing. I will quote the preview of the game, read it carefully:

"Civilization IV will be the most customizable version of Civ yet! There are four levels of customization. In the first and easiest level, players can use the built-in World Builder to create new custom maps to play in single player and multiplayer games. In the second level, players can edit the game's XML data files using notepad or a XML editor to change the game parameters -- nothing in the game is hard-coded. In the third level, players can edit the game's python scripts to change map generation, the interface, game events, etc. Finally, at the fourth level, players with programming experience can even change the AI and all the game rules using the Civ4 Game/AI SDK (Software Developers Kit). In other words, you can pretty much change everything you want and even build a game based loosely on Civilization."


You want to play again at "etimology" with game devellopers? They call it EDITING.

See also http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3200753&postcount=2 for more infos. I undesrtand your fear about using the XML and more, but I guarantee you that it is peanuts. Once you get to it you can create your customized game, and this is much more than adding ressources or removing something from the map. The CIV4 editor is complex and amazing, revolutionary because for the first time, we can get our hands on the (almost) source code.

 

[Danicela]

I wrote ALL commands you can do through world editor.

No, you wrote something about modding, in a .ini file outside the game
=> This isn't the World Editor.
I'm only talking about the World Editor not modding or anything else.

And in fact i say true, you can-not-do-it in the World Editor.

And it is not modding, but typing commands WHILE you are in World editor.

Everything that occurs outside the game outside the main editor is called modding.
Where can you type commands in the World Editor?
You type your commands in a .ini file => Modding # World Editor.

CIV Is an about customization game , not editing.

You can custom the game with 2 manners : maps and mods.
World Editor => Maps.
Outside with texts => Mods.
I didn't invented the name "World Editor" = to edit the world.
Don't confuse.

You want to play again at "etimology" with game devellopers? They call it EDITING.

The 2 "edits" you have quoted concern FILES => "edit the game's XML data files" and "edit the game's python scripts".
Indeed, you edit files.
But editing these files corresponds to make game modding.
Editing = maps ; modding = game.

---

The post you have quoted proves that I say true.

but I guarantee you that it is peanuts.

In comparison with other things, It could be much more easy, but it is made to be the hardest as possible.

and this is much more than adding ressources or removing something from the map.

Please understand that I'm not asking for a modification of the entire game, I just want that the World Editor is well done, with all the options it should have, because I can't make the map I want because this one is very limited.

The CIV4 editor is complex and amazing, revolutionary because for the first time, we can get our hands on the (almost) source code.

The mod tools are maybe powerful, although they are very hard explained and useable (it could be easier easily), but the World Editor is still crap.

-

I'm not talking about modding but just about World Editor and its limits that it shouldn't have.

---

smjjames : You haven't understood the poll : If You tick Blank Vote, you don't tick the others, same for the "I don't care for this".

 

[Beamup]

So your core complaint is that some of the functionality is in the area you choose to label as "modding" instead of in what you choose to label as "world builder." Yeah, it sure would be a good use of time, money, and effort to do a lot of work to change that.

 

[Danicela]

So your core complaint is that some of the functionality is in the area you choose to label as "modding" instead of in what you choose to label as "world builder." Yeah, it sure would be a good use of time, money, and effort to do a lot of work to change that.

I don't know what are you talking about.
What you say shows that you haven't understand anything and you haven't read my whole post.
If you did that, you would see that my requests are in the World Builder, because it is very limited.
I'm not talking about etimology of "modding" and "world builder", these are clear enough already, I was only correcting Salamandre's mistake about this.
I'm not requesting I don't know what about these names, this is only something between me and Salamandre, and this has nothing to do with the main request, I'm only answering to Salamandre, read carefully my main post to see what I'm requesting, and you'll understand that your last post is a unsense.

 

[Salamandre]

Dude, actually its you who doesnt read others posts. The commands I wrote are done in the world editor, not some INI. I am amazed how lazy you are and dont search in those forums to learn what you can do with those tools: You just opened the wold editor and noticed missing features, but they miss because you dont know how to trigger them. Read again my post, click on link, and you will be happy with your world editor. Instead of icons to click, you type in. Basic...

The features missing are:

1)removing leaders/civs (but this is cake , as you can select them in map options, before starting the game, dont understand why you find it a problem)

EXAMPLE: you want to make a custom map with 18 civs. You choose whatever map you want, highlight 18 civs, you start the game, open world builder, type Map.empty, they are gone. ALL. Now you can add them manually where you want...You want to change terrain? Type
Map.eraseGameElements, map is empty now. Time to create your self your world.

2) random starting location change (completelly uselles, as the equation ressorces/distance between civs force the player to act manually).

3)Undo feature: yes, this is missing


The features which are in but you dont know how to trigger them:

1)ressource randomizer
2) checking distance between civs and control if they can put at least 2 towns
3-50) a lot others that you prefer to ignore.


Open CIV.INI.
Change cheatcode=0 to cheatcode=chipotle (this enable advanced options)
Save
Start game (uncheck cheat option, as you need to open world builder)
Open world builder
Type "~"
Type whatever code you want (sorry, you will have to learn them)

 

[Danicela]

Dude, actually its you who doesnt read others posts.

No, i'm right on Beamup's thing, he didn't read my post and he criticizes some stupid things that i'm not the author.

The commands I wrote are done in the world editor, not some INI

You have said : "INI.file cheat=chipotle" and you said the lines after ...
these types of lines correspond well to a .ini file, something outside the game.

How can you write something like this in the World Editor ?
You are crazy?
I have searched in all buttons there are and there is nothing compared to what you say.
And I'm not going to tape weird things, these things need and should be useable and makable easily in the different menus, exactly like the other games' editors.

I am amazed how lazy you are and dont search in those forums to learn what you can do with those tools

I'm not lazy, I have just noticed that there are missing things that there should be in, I don't know what strange & odd things you want I do, but they are obviously outside the World Editor and the game in itself and they are a kind of modding and this is something I'm not talking about, I'm talking about World Editor and not another thing, the World Editor is very limited.

but they miss because you dont know how to trigger them

rofl, I have searched in all buttons and things, they don't exist.

and you will be happy with your world editor.

From the beginning, you didn't understand what I'm talking about, you confuse modding and World Editor mapping.

Instead of icons to click, you type in

You type in what ?
There are nothing to type in the World Editor.
And even if it was, it shouldn't be like that, but with buttons => simply, like all other games' editors, why Civ4 is the only which is hard and limited ?

Basic...

False, this is not "Basic", but not makable as it should be.

(but this is cake , as you can select them in map options, before starting the game, dont understand why you find it a problem)

You didn't read my main post :
"=> It should be a button in the Word Editor that opens you a "Player Editor" which enables you to add new players, to remove old players, and to change their civilization and leader.
The only way you have to do it, it is to take a custom game, in what you open the Editor after starting... but you are not able to take an already made map, and to change it on the players/civlizations point of view, the players and civilizations are already chosen and you can't change them, this is bad.
You have to remake the whole map if you want to change the players/civ and so you have to choose them very carefully at the beginning.. and what if you did a mistake or you want to change the players & civ throughout/at a some point of the map creation? You can't, you should be able to do it..."

This is one of the most important things and this is no therefore "a cake".
You can do it before creating a game yes (but not all like the AllGrass ones)
But you can't do it when the game is started.
This is a major problem.

(completelly uselles, as the equation ressorces/distance between civs force the player to act manually).

This is not completely useless but very useful, because it gives to the game more randomness, instead of the same game each of time.
Why does this force the play to act manually ? It could be something to make the things random, this is not a problem.

ressource randomizer

Searched, there is not, don't talk about modding.

checking distance between civs and control if they can put at least 2 towns

Wtf is this ?
I never requested for this type of thing.
I don't even know what it is.

3-50) a lot others that you prefer to ignore.

Another time, you are wrong, there are not "a lot others that i prefer to ignore."
I never prefer to ignore something.
I do not "ignore" anything.

Open CIV.INI.
Change cheatcode=0 to cheatcode=chipotle (this enable advanced options)
Save
Start game
Open world builder
Type "~"
Type whatever code you want (sorry, you will have to learn them)

This seems to be modding so it is out of subject because I'm talking only about World Editor.
I don't want to cheat ... thx
There are not codes to type, not in the World Editor, in mods maybe but I'm not talking about them.
I don't have to learn any code to use it, I only want to use the World Editor, not some stupids ...

 

[Beamup]

I don't know what are you talking about.
What you say shows that you haven't understand anything and you haven't read my whole post.

I read carefully and understand quite well. The problem is that you're being ridiculously arbitrary.

If you did that, you would see that my requests are in the World Builder, because it is very limited.

You would realize, if you had paid attention to any preceding posts, that said capabilities ARE present, you have merely chosen to label them as "modding" rather than "world builder." Very simple.

Let's be perfectly clear here. You are NOT asking for any additional capabilities to be provided to you. As Salamandre has made quite clear, the capabilities you are requesting are already there. The only thing you are complaining about is that they aren't in the FORM you want. And said form is purely a matter of labelling.

This seems to be modding so it is out of subject because I'm talking only about World Editor.
I don't want to cheat ... thx
There are not codes to type, not in the World Editor, in mods maybe but I'm not talking about them.
I don't have to learn any code to use it, I only want to use the World Editor, not some stupids ...

This sums it all up, I think. "I want to 'cheat,' but not to 'cheat' in this one particular way that's identical to what I'm already doing, and I want a different interface because I've arbitrarily decided that I can't actually type anything into the WB."

Simply put, what you're demanding would be a ridiculous, unjustifiable, unsupportable, and downright counterproductive thing to do, since it amounts to nothing more than cosmetic changes, that would involve a LOT of work and reduce the overall capabilities of the WB/modding/SDK setup.

 

[Salamandre]

I give up...


Do you play with introduction movie? I dont. To disable it, I have to go in INI file and put 1 to 0. In had to put autosaves from 1 to 5.

Thats not modding.

Thats preparing the game. Adding cheatcode=chipotle is preparing the world builder, not cheating.

And about cheat, using world editor is "cheat". I didnt force you to cheat, but using world editor is called "cheat" by firaxis. If you lock the "cheat" option you cant open the Worldbuilder.So if you plan to work with the editor, you HAVE to put that damnt chipotle because without it the editor isnt COMPLETE


Firaxis POSTED this in forums
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3226988&postcount=1

Of course Warcraft3 had to have a complet world editor, that is teenager game. How could they find the INI., if any...