Map Resources Ideas and Discussion

[Koshling]

NOw we have glich in the game because not all resources comes from map as they should be (like flint). It is because we dont have place for them on map.

SO we need new functionality

Obsolete resources
- disappers from map
- disappears from trade routes/diplomacy etc
simply it vanish from game

It is obvious that some resources like ex flint, obsidian, stone, clay are very important for prehistoric times but have very little importance in other eras.

We could use that funcionality to place more resources on the map and remove them in later eras to make place for new ones.

Another solution is to have few resources ex flint and obsidian in one tile.

How would you globally obsolete a resource? An emergent new civ might be several eras behind the tech leader, so what is obsolete for one civ is not necessarily obsolete for another. That means it still has trade value between them (in one direction).

 

[Taxman66]

How about just having a worker option to remove said 'old' resource so that a new one might be found via the farm/mine/jungle camp on an 'empty' resource tile

 

[Koshling]

How about just having a worker option to remove said 'old' resource so that a new one might be found via the farm/mine/jungle camp on an 'empty' resource tile

Taking this a step further - how about a worker option (tech enabled) to 'prospect' for a specific (or specific range of maybe) resource. Can only be done in an appropriate terrain and has a chance to discover a resource of the type (or group) you are prospecting for (REPLACING any existing resource if successful).

Variant ideas:

• Separate prospect action for every map resource vs grouped (e.g. - prospect for metals)
• Actions only enabled by worker promotions (i.e. - base workers either cannot prospect at all , or only for a very limited set of resources, but promotions unlock new prospectable resource types) - this would keep the number of available actions for any given worker under control and make worker promotions MUCH more valuable

 

[Nimek]

Geology tech will have more reality thanks to that.

Good idea.

Building in city that "replaces" old resources with new ones. Ex geology base

 

[Taxman66]

I think it might get tricky trying to keep track of each tile that has already been prospected, unless you want the chance to be repeatable with new/multiple prospecting missions.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Taking this a step further - how about a worker option (tech enabled) to 'prospect' for a specific (or specific range of maybe) resource. Can only be done in an appropriate terrain and has a chance to discover a resource of the type (or group) you are prospecting for (REPLACING any existing resource if successful).

Variant ideas:

• Separate prospect action for every map resource vs grouped (e.g. - prospect for metals)
• Actions only enabled by worker promotions (i.e. - base workers either cannot prospect at all , or only for a very limited set of resources, but promotions unlock new prospectable resource types) - this would keep the number of available actions for any given worker under control and make worker promotions MUCH more valuable

This concept was basically part of a plan to have units similar to the Great Farmer that would be able to do this. However... your point about the worker promotions makes this new concept rather interesting.

Another alternative, that would harmonize nicely with this one you suggest would be to enable multiple resources on a particular tile. Perhaps those multiple resources would still need to be of a different category, thus you could only have one mined resource, one wood resource - (btw: those should not remain if the forest or jungle are destroyed I think...), one farming resource etc... Perhaps some of those types CAN be replaced but others... we don't have much choice whether there's gold at a location or silver (even though in history sometimes we've discovered there's more value in silver at a location than there is in gold so perhaps some overlap should still be possible?)

I think my issue with a mechanism that gives the player full choice on what he wants in a tile is that it would be somewhat unrealistic. Mostly a matter of the minerals - As stated, the earth decides a lot about that. It's there before we get there so the best we can do is use what she provides us to the fullest. Not all territories are good for growing all things either. There's also examples in agriculture - Potatoes took in the North West US where many other crops struggled.

So perhaps the best overall method would be to enable multiple resources on a tile (of course only one type gets accessed depending on what sort of improvement you choose to place there), providing workers with advanced promos an ability to prospect or test the territory for something that can be discovered, planted, or ranched on the site - maybe have them search for something specific. Then when a check is made that takes in a calculated likelihood of that type of bonus being a fit for that land, it either makes the new resource come up on that territory or it fails and keeps record that the checked for resource simply is not compatible with that tile and will not allow another check for THAT resource there again.

With a mechanism like this, I could really see resource depletion as a potentially valid option in a game... provided it only depletes resources that are being accessed (which I believe this is how it works but I'm not sure...)

Workers would need to specialize in particular promo paths to reach these abilities and I'd think we'd want each type of resource check mission to be individually enabled or at least in very limited sets.

And we'd need some new xml tags for the bonus infos so we could guide them to have some likelihood rules by terrain/feature/other bonuses already present/latitude/longitude and anything else we can think of. If we ever get the georealism in place, we'll have a lot to work with on tiles right there!

 

[Koshling]

Multiple resources on one plot would be a lot more work, as we'd have to change the underpinnings in the DLL, and therefore much more error-prone I think.

However, suppose we had hidden proto-resources (map resources which are present but nothing reveals them). Then we could have the DLL (saves changing the map scripts, but it could be the map scripts if we had to go that way) place proto-resources on many of the plots that initially lack directly map-spawned resources according to some specific rules (see below). The prospecting actions would then essentially convert (or have a chance to do so) a proto-resource to a regular map resource.

Suggested rules:

• Each proto-resource represents a group of real resources the act of prospecting can possibly turn it into (e.g. - proto metals can become any of the regular metals say)
• Each regular map resource specifies which proto-resources are likely nearby (with probabilities). This information is used to initially place the proto-resources on tiles adjacent to map-script-placed map resources according to these probabilities.
• Workers get promotions that allow prospect actions, with the promotions unlocked by techs

This (example) if a map script places iron, then the DLL is likely to fill in proto-metal hidden resources nearby, which can later be prospected into actual meta resources in the same group. That way the map script still controls the type of resource placement, and (depending on how tightly we draw the groups) it retains control over the overall distribution.

Techs now have new value in unlocking the ability to prospect, and workers gain useful promotions. Indeed even entire promotion lines such as:

PROMOTION_METAL_PROSPECTOR1 - can prospect for copper, lead and iron
PROMOTION_METAL_PROSPECTOR2 - can prospect for aluminum
PROMOTION_METAL_PROSPECTOR3 - can prospect for uranium

Alternatively (perhaps better, so the player doesn't have TOO much control):

PROMOTION_METAL_PROSPECTOR1 - can prospect for metals, and may discover any of copper, lead and iron
PROMOTION_METAL_PROSPECTOR2 - can prospect for metals, and may now also discover aluminum
PROMOTION_METAL_PROSPECTOR3 - can prospect for metals, and may now also discover uranium

i.e. - you can' choose what you're looking for beyond the broad group (metals in this case), and what you find depends on probabilities defines on the proto-resource, with only those that the promotion enables considered.

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... some good thoughts. I'm liking the way the promos are looking in that example. But from what you're suggesting, you would not be able to change the resource that already exists on a plot would you?

I do believe there is one or more mods on CFC that already enable multiple resources successfully. If we found the one to merge would you be interested in that as a mechanism?

 

[Koshling]

hmm... some good thoughts. I'm liking the way the promos are looking in that example. But from what you're suggesting, you would not be able to change the resource that already exists on a plot would you?

I do believe there is one or more mods on CFC that already enable multiple resources successfully. If we found the one to merge would you be interested in that as a mechanism?

The way I was thinking you can prospect an existing resource if you want, and doing so treats it as if it was the proto-resource that could give rise to the resource currently present (so it could change the revealed resource to one of the valid prospect types for that stem group, destroying the existing resource ion the process)

I'm not necessarily against merging a multi-resource mod if there is one, but I can see an awful lot of potential complexity in it, not least of which is how to get the multiple resources displayed effectively, as well as evaluated correctly by both the AI and lot group calculations, not to mention how it would work with existing maps and scripts, as well as existing games.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well... with the way you explain it in your first paragraph there I could agree that could be a simply better mechanic for the all the same reasons you state in the second.

I'd be quite happy with the mechanism as you propose it. Personally, I'm a bit fuzzy with map placement issues in the dll so the programming would still be a rather large new project to consider.

I know you and I both have hundreds of goal points as its stands so we'll probably have to let this dog sleep for a bit and return to it later but I like the way it's proposed.

 

[stoferb]

This reminds me. I think it wouldn't be too much difficulty with some places having multiple tile improvements. Basically it's just one tile improvement with name, graphics and output being a mixture of the two it combines. I'm thinking especially of watermills and farms and watermills and cottages/villages/towns.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It is obvious that some resources like ex flint, obsidian, stone, clay are very important for prehistoric times but have very little importance in other eras.

Obsidian makes the best surgical scalpels even now. Clay is still very important in building - my house is made from bricks made from clay. Wood is not a good building material in some areas of Australia due to all the termites.

Multiple resources per tile is common especially when talking about metals. Silver and lead are often found together as are gold and copper. Rio Tinto the river valley in Spain has all four and more! There is a region in South Australia (state) that has an extensive area of uranium with a large deposit of gold above it. Iron and aluminium are found in the same area in Queensland (state) also.

Would an alternative resource strategy be to have just one metal but having differing percentages of the various metals work? With the percentages also varying as seams run out? May work with a quantity system better.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Would an alternative resource strategy be to have just one metal but having differing percentages of the various metals work? With the percentages also varying as seams run out? May work with a quantity system better.

Would require a quantity system really wouldn't it?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Clay is still very important in building - my house is made from bricks made from clay. Wood is not a good building material in some areas of Australia due to all the termites.

Don't forget that the space shuttle used ceramic tiles for heat shields.

 

[strategyonly]

Multiple resources per tile is common especially when talking about metals. Silver and lead are often found together as are gold and copper. Rio Tinto the river valley in Spain has all four and more! There is a region in South Australia (state) that has an extensive area of uranium with a large deposit of gold above it. Iron and aluminum are found in the same area in Queensland (state) also.

Would an alternative resource strategy be to have just one metal but having differing percentages of the various metals work? With the percentages also varying as seams run out? May work with a quantity system better.

Dont you have the Multiple resources on a tile already implemented, ie: through your animal stuff? (Herds?)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Dont you have the Multiple resources on a tile already implemented, ie: through your animal stuff? (Herds?)

Not really, besides I want to change those so that the herd animals can place their resource on the map instead of having a herd building. Although that is more in line with a more expanded prehistoric time line so I may do that in Johny Smith's mod rather than C2C.

 

[rightfuture]

So why exactly, aren't we improving the prehistoric era in C2C(as it comes)? Especially when we have good opportunities!!
Please let's not get in our own way and limit ourselves, or our mindsets.

Being too conservative will kill our growth and participation, being too liberal will clog the pipes with too much chaos,
The fight to create balance between both is what propels us further forward to greatness.
You have to make room for progress and great ideas, as they come.
And that breakthrough challenge of overcoming most any obstacle is what makes C2C utterly brilliant!

The point is not to let the ideas separate us. We get a lot more good ideas (and solutions) with a diversity of views.
We Have to make room for each other, and each other's ideas to a debatable/testable degree, so that we can all move smoothly, or we will Never reach the Cosmos.
Even less likely the best version of that Cosmos we can have.

We need to be on a page we can all fit on, work with.
We do want to see the best of our collaborative efforts? Right?
Let's be pioneers, not landowners(idea-hoarders), gentlemen.

Herd animal placement, on the map, is absolutely fantastic idea. And it should be in C2C.
I would absolutely love to see this!
In fact, you might kill me, literally, if it ends up elsewhere....

 

[Thunderbrd]

Wait...
has Johny Smith gone off and done his own expanded Prehistoric Mod now? Can someone give me a link to that?

The point is not to let the ideas separate us. We get a lot more good ideas (and solutions) with a diversity of views.

Agreed.

 

[Nimek]

Wait...
has Johny Smith gone off and done his own expanded Prehistoric Mod now? Can someone give me a link to that?

+1 for this request

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

1) No, he has not made it yet. He just keeps saying he will.

2) It is a major change, really major, about 3 months of uninterrupted work. It needs to be tested as a concept first. C2C is not the place to do that as a first instance. It probably requires the Nomad component working fully first as well.