Marines are making me seasick.......

[CloudedSun]

I'd for the Special forces... make it

2 move to keep up with the other modern units
~28 str to be a viable combat unit
paradrop (maybe up to range 7)
Amphibious and Commando

and available with ?Fiber Optics?Composites? and Advanced Flight

I like that idea Although you may want to rethink giving it commando. Imagine an enemy training swarms of them and using your railroads to take a city in the heart of your empire.

Anyone know of any graphics for it? Personally, I'd be tempted to recycle the Navy SEAL graphics.

 

[seasnake]

So far I'm having trouble finding the Navy Seal art, otherwise I'd use that ... It's hard to get it to look good when paratrooping, but possible.

 

[Rusty Edge]

I like that idea Although you may want to rethink giving it commando. Imagine an enemy training swarms of them and using your railroads to take a city in the heart of your empire.

Anyone know of any graphics for it? Personally, I'd be tempted to recycle the Navy SEAL graphics.

The Special Forces Unit would need a high cost appropriate for it's training and equipment / delivery and support systems, so that it's truly an elite unit.

They would still be vulnerable to Modern Armor when they are in in foreign territory. Hopefully I don't forget to keep a couple divisions of armor in a core city as rapid-reaction force.

 

[chaz1356]

I love it, a paradropping, commando, amphibious assault, combat viable trooper

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well it wouldn't Really be combat viable... the 'modern heavies' Modern Armor, and Mech Infantry would still beat it. but Mech Inf would Barely beat it. (and Gunships could accompany it)

 

[peter450]

I'd for the Special forces... make it

2 move to keep up with the other modern units
~28 str to be a viable combat unit
paradrop (maybe up to range 7)
Amphibious and Commando

and available with ?Fiber Optics?Composites? and Advanced Flight

I'd say keep the American UU as is (although it should probably be beefed up, but that's a seperate issue) and make the new unit ... something besides SEALs which is too specific already [some term suggesting sudden attack and/or combined arms] perhaps something as simple as

Special Forces

[the American UU would be good if you could still build it after the Special Forces became available... you could build SEALs with March and upgrade them to special forces]

I think your in the right ballpark with those stats, although i would leave the str at 24 it's a fair number for what the unit is, i'd rather see it get combat bonus's relative to it's role rather than a higher str rating. Something along the lines of a couple of FS (a la American Seal, to represent it's fast strike role) and a 50% fortify bonus granted over 2 turns (instead of normal 25% over 5 turns, to represent the role such units have in lightening strikes to secure teritory or take postions by surprise), as recent examples in Iraq show when special forces were used to secure the oilfields until regular combat troops arrived on the scene or WW2 when hundreds of paratroopers were dropped behind enemy lines to secure vital bridges an towns.

I'd leave the basic moves at one aswell, but have it start with the commando upgrade, it's still a infantry/foot unit an 2 moves would look out of place considering the only other units to get 2 moves are the mechanised/tracked units which would in most given situations be faster, having the commando upgrade which would in effect give it 3 moves on roads (even enemy ones)would help keep it up to speed with the modern stuff while being in keeping with the units role/function

Add in the paradrop facilty with some extended range, and allow the unit to be carried aboard & make paradrops from an aircraft carrier with space for say 3 units per carrier & you have the makings of a good modern version of marines/paratroops that are not hugely powerful on there own but which have a good role/function to play in most combat situations & excel at surprise strikes behind enemy lines an holding key strategic points

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well the idea is this is meant to be a Modern unit, and those are strength
40 ModArm
32 MechInf
26 MobArt
24 Gunship
22 Mob SAM

I'd tend to go for keeping it higher strength with less promotions, so that Promotions could differentiate it...

but I think something like Str 24 but with Woodsman I and Guerilla I would work (especially as that would allow easy access to the faster movement IIs and the Retreat+Medic ability of IIIs) [In that case make it an upgrade of the Explorer as well, and throw in the Ability better besults from Huts]


I can see the issue with the 1 move though... but the idea is primarily in terms of keeping up with other units... but I guess this unit wouldn't be doing that anyways.

I Really like the idea of Paradrop from an Aircraft Carrier.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Well it wouldn't Really be combat viable... the 'modern heavies' Modern Armor, and Mech Infantry would still beat it. but Mech Inf would Barely beat it. (and Gunships could accompany it)

Exactly. Hopefully you would provide some air cover for the operation, too.

 

[LemonJello]

If it's truly SF, then captured enemy workers should become some kind of partisan/insurgent that allies with your civ.


Just a thought.

 

[ezwip]

Well it wouldn't Really be combat viable... the 'modern heavies' Modern Armor, and Mech Infantry would still beat it. but Mech Inf would Barely beat it. (and Gunships could accompany it)

The Marine should not be anywhere near as powerful as a Bradley. Get over it. You guys are all tripping hard. I think you have watched too many movies. Rambo is not real. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The fact is it needs to be USEFUL

looking at those strengths
40
32
Those are the mainline combat one's so it Must be lower than those
26 .. with collateral Damage and ability to remove defenses
24 +100% v that 40 (and Flanking v. the Collateral above)
22 but with good anti-air and a bonus v. that Gunship

The fact is a unit is needed that would have a role
go in and disrupt something, either hold a weak spot or take a weak target
24 Strength alone is not enough to do that in the modern era

The basic Marine and Paratrooper is 24 Str to the Infantry's 20(25 v. Guns) or the Tank's 28

That suggests they should be just slightly less than a mainline unit
if they are slightly less than a Mech Infantry (after all this is not one guy, this is a very large group of guys equipped with a variety of stuff) then

Str 28 would be reasonable
another option is Str 24 with some bonuses particularly interesting ones (like Woodsman+Guerilla I).. so they are OK if they stick to the hills (they need +33% to match the Mech infantry.. and there the Hills would give it to them. they would need +66% to match Modern Armor, and the wouldn't get that unless they had GuerII, or landed in a Forest/Jungle

 

[Rusty Edge]

The Marine should not be anywhere near as powerful as a Bradley. Get over it. You guys are all tripping hard. I think you have watched too many movies. Rambo is not real. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Don't think of it as a marine per se. Hasn't the 101st Airborne pretty much gone to helicopters rather than jumping out of planes? Aren't they much more powerful now than the were in WWII?

 

[ezwip]

Don't think of it as a marine per se. Hasn't the 101st Airborne pretty much gone to helicopters rather than jumping out of planes? Aren't they much more powerful now than the were in WWII?

Then give the plane and the helicopter a higher rating. They should both be more powerful then a marine, but you want to give the marine an even higher rating. Maybe we can put a little red cape on him too with an S? The helicopter should beat any foot soldier that doesn't have a rocket, but that's not the case.

A paratrooper is currently more powerful then an apache attack helicopter... seriously... you think the marine needs more power. A guy with a rifle.

I know the TV told you that you are an army of one. I'm a little suprised so many of you believed it.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

A Paratrooper is currently Equal to a Gunship (PS there are no 'apache attack helicopters' in civ... just lie there are no 'bradleys')

In civ you have this unit called a Gunship that is an AntiArmor (as in Anti tan, Panzer,+Modern Armor) weapon.

as for the proposed 'Special Forces' unit.. who said they were only equipped with Rifles... they would at Least require Advanced flight... which means they would need satellites which means Rocketry

If you really want to, take the same unit change the graphic and call it the Terrain Following Attack Hellicopter

The point is there are two UNITS (Marines and Paratroopers) which are near useless in the Modern Era because even though they have the same strength as a Gunship, their special abilities are way too specific... as opposed to a Gunship which has a +100% Armor bonus which makes it an excellent Armor counter. (Armored units having the highest base strength in their era.)

So the idea is to come up with a Modern Era UNIT that the Marine and Paratrooper would upgrade to, that would be useful in the Modern Era. The Marine + Paratrooper both had high strength for their era and a limited special Ability.
By making a unit with more special abilities, the Strength can be low For the Modern Era. Or make a unit with less special Abilities for more strength.

In any case Given the Marine's and Paratrooper's abilities the idea was to find 'Targets of opportunity' (hence adding on the Commando Ability, allowing at least 3 move on most tiles given the widespread transport netwrk of the time)

The thing that need to be done is to make sure they are good enough to take these targets of opportunity which I see as
1. coastal cities
2. strategic resources that are un/lightly guarded
3. providing a pillaging force behind enemy lines

For that I think
either Str 28 or Str 24 (+Woodsman+Guerilla) is needed
both would provide the ability to prevent a guaranteed win by equal cost preventative forces when the Unit was 'bunkered down' behind enemy lines. (on some type of defensive terrain)

They would also provide useful invading abilities (Guerilla III would be a good thing to have on STR 24 units attacking a coastal city, as would str 28)

 

[modzso]

Can subs carry troops? They should be able to carry SEALs/Marines/SF troops.

 

[Stylesrj]

I think the Mobile SAM needs a reworking. They've lost about 50% on their bonus to Gunship attacking and they've also lost 20% of interception ability (or lost a small amount). The only new thing with Mobile SAMs that they have more strength.
So they need to be reworked on to be better... (or is this a consequence of the Next War Mod? Compare for me)

As for the Marines, I think they're fine as is. Although they could go with a bit more strength. I'm sure they'll go well next to Mech Infantry (Maybe Mech Infantry should be some sort of support unit, not a city defender. Perhaps a land APC?)

 

[Soneji]

I think Marine are fine as they are. Will take out Infantry on a level basis, and being able to take seaport Cities after bombardment is good.

Game I finished playing last night I never bothered with Mech Inf for pretty much the first time in my late war games. Had two massive stacks of Marines, some 25 each.. accompanied with a couple of Generals upgraded to Mech Inf and some 20 Modern Armour and 6 Mobile Artillery. By the time I started my assault on the second continent, it only took from 1996-2001 to capitulate three civs.. by the time Asoka capituled it gave me conquest (forgot to turn it off).

I would like to see more naval units to be able to carry Marines, other than transports. Marines do *ok* at holding off Tanks (non modern), and the time at which they become available.. I start building them over any other man based unit.

SAM infantry are pointless for attacking in my eyes...

 

[Bino]

Marines also can be useful for very long depending on the tech path one chooses...i remember games where marines were my main defence for a lot of time, since i was going for culture victory (and yes i'm not a very storng player yet).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think the Mobile SAM needs a reworking. They've lost about 50% on their bonus to Gunship attacking and they've also lost 20% of interception ability (or lost a small amount). The only new thing with Mobile SAMs that they have more strength.
So they need to be reworked on to be better... (or is this a consequence of the Next War Mod? Compare for me)

As for the Marines, I think they're fine as is. Although they could go with a bit more strength. I'm sure they'll go well next to Mech Infantry (Maybe Mech Infantry should be some sort of support unit, not a city defender. Perhaps a land APC?)

The Mobile SAM is fine... it has the exact same stats as the pre-BTS SAM, but with move 2 and more strength

The stats are
Str 18
Move 1
Intercept 40%
Gunship +75% (31.5)

To
Str 22
Move 2
Intercept 50%
Gunship+50% (33)

so it is slightly better against Gunships, it is Mobile (the big advantage) and stronger against everything else.

Marines and Paratroopers Are good for the Industrial Era, once you are fully in the Modern Era, Marines and Paratroopers are too weak and their special abilities not enough to justify building them.

So this thread is suggesting that we Keep the Marine and Paratrooper, but add a New Higher tech Unit that is the Upgrade for the Marine+Paratrooper. a unit that would appear around the time of Mech Infantry, Modern Armor, Mobile SAMs, Mobile Artillery (all the M units)

Which means at least
1. combining the abilities (Amphibious+Paradrop)[I'm proposing adding 2 range to the Paradrop as well]
2. Making them either Move 2 or Commando (to keep up with Modern units)
3. Adding on some Strength or some more abilities/bonuses (Str +4 v. Wood+Guer I v. + to Defense)to stay matching with Modern units

for Tech requirements I think we've seen a minimum of Advanced Flight + another tech in that range [or a tech that requires advanced Flight]

As for Cost, probably about the same cost as the Mech Infantry, + or - some.. depending on how good the unit is.

 

[peter450]

Then give the plane and the helicopter a higher rating. They should both be more powerful then a marine, but you want to give the marine an even higher rating. Maybe we can put a little red cape on him too with an S? The helicopter should beat any foot soldier that doesn't have a rocket, but that's not the case.

A paratrooper is currently more powerful then an apache attack helicopter... seriously... you think the marine needs more power. A guy with a rifle.

I know the TV told you that you are an army of one. I'm a little suprised so many of you believed it.

You need to get out of the rambo movie mentality, the icons may only be 1 or 2 units but they represent whole divisions, 1 tank is not going to take any city, the tank icon represents an armoured tank divsion, in the same way a marine icon does not represent one man with a gun, but an entire marine divison, civ does not have the graphical interface to represent this but most people can work out that a pratorian unit is not representing 1 roman soldier but rather a legion, so stop trying to bait people with stupid comments about superman