Marriage

Voidwalkin

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Jun 12, 2024
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Do you still believe that marriage is a viable and or healthy concept in contemporary times?

I don't. Seen too many miserable marriages and life altering decisions made only for it to go south.
 
No poll with multiple options?
 
Well, for half of people who say "I do."
 
A successful marriage is a lot of work that mostly is about accommodating your spouse (in both directions). Giving up and giving in. Breaking up nowadays is too easy and to stay married one has to want to stay married more than one wants to get their own way.
 
A few observations regarding why Brother Voidwalkin does not like marriage(he has never been personally married)

-one "friend" initiated a separation from her husband, only to regret it, realizing she, uh, had no money and neither did he(but he does have a good salary). I suspect she was somehow able to entrap the man by conceiving a child. They are still married. She continues having extramarital affairs. I suspect they are miserable.

-another friend stayed with her husband for his ability to obtain various drugs, despite fighting ceaselessly and in fact, calling their kids school in some sort of maniacal hysteria, claiming he'd hacked the schools computers(I actually really like this woman)

-a third lives in perpetual fear of his wife having affairs, including, bizarrely, a fear of emotional affairs with players of some video game

-a fourth initiated divorce proceedings a week after living with his longtime girlfriend for a sum total of one week; evidently, he had always insisted on living alone, she really pushed, the marriage a part of that, but, when push came to shove, she was bringing in makeup and hairdryers and he just went "oh **** no get out of here"

Brother Voidwalkin concludes that marriage is a cultural inheritance people do procedurally that serves no utilitarian purpose.
 
Gonna suggest marriage itself ain't the problem in most of those cases lol
Marriage is rarely the problem. Failed marriages are all about the people involved.
 
Sure, all about the people, just like failures of Christianity, Communism, etc
You are skipping away from your topic into unrelated territory. Marriage (of some nature) is a family level institution that is found in most communities. Christianity and communism are broader level institutions that can influence down to the family level. Marriages and families fail because of the people involved and their inability reconcile differences or deal with life circumstances.
 
You are skipping away from your topic into unrelated territory. Marriage (of some nature) is a family level institution that is found in most communities. Christianity and communism are broader level institutions that can influence down to the family level. Marriages and families fail because of the people involved and their inability reconcile differences or deal with life circumstances.
I think the system creates the people, and to then turn around and say "it is the people that failed to get along" is true but also lacking in explanation.

Since the 60s, new ideas, call it an open-minded spirit of social exploration has swept the West. It has resulted in a spirit of individualism; consequently people have indeed grown more unique and probably more isolated simultaneously.

We can't realistically expect them to then come together and have a comparable amount of, say, incompatibilities with their partner as we could of people 30 years ago. They probably also meet less people organically. More differences, fewer opportunities to meet those with commonality. It's bleak.

Yet what I see pretty routinely are people struggling to meet the tradition despite changed circumstances, while larger society still incentivizes it despite it becoming an increasingly poor fit for the people. Colorful anecdotes aside, which imo are simply representative of that pattern, a social institution should actually serve the people.
 
Having been married twice (one 7yrs and one for almost two decades) and now poly with no expectation of getting married again unless it's for legal or financial reasons... yes of course marriage is a viable institution, as a civil concept. Presuming the institution is gender agnostic and consensual, anyway. I do look forward to it including the acknowledgement/inclusion of more than two participants, though.
 
I think the system creates the people, and to then turn around and say "it is the people that failed to get along" is true but also lacking in explanation.

Since the 60s, new ideas, call it an open-minded spirit of social exploration has swept the West. It has resulted in a spirit of individualism; consequently people have indeed grown more unique and probably more isolated simultaneously.

We can't realistically expect them to then come together and have a comparable amount of, say, incompatibilities with their partner as we could of people 30 years ago. They probably also meet less people organically. More differences, fewer opportunities to meet those with commonality. It's bleak.

Yet what I see pretty routinely are people struggling to meet the tradition despite changed circumstances, while larger society still incentivizes it despite it becoming an increasingly poor fit for the people. Colorful anecdotes aside, which imo are simply representative of that pattern, a social institution should actually serve the people.
As someone who has been part of the cultural changes you mention, I have first hand experience in the American aspect of those changes.

"...It has resulted in a spirit of individualism; consequently people have indeed grown more unique and probably more isolated simultaneously."

Just not true. Any spirit of individualism has been around for decades, centuries and likely much longer. The opportunity to express oneself more freely has been growing steadily since the WW2. The boomers latched on to that and carried the flag forward in very public and influential ways. They had the numbers and normalized it. Affluence and new media spread it around to all. Nobody "became more unique." The forced social conformity of prior times collapsed. Social isolation didn't get going until broadband went mainstream and it was easy to just stay home to be entertained. If you want to put a hard date on it, I'd go with June 29, 2007. But there could be others.

"We can't realistically expect them to then come together and have a comparable amount of, say, incompatibilities with their partner as we could of people 30 years ago. They probably also meet less people organically. More differences, fewer opportunities to meet those with commonality. It's bleak."

It is pretty clear why people get married: lust, money, companionship, and love. Why they choose to get unmarried is more complex and after the fact of being married. Generally speaking, they cannot get along. Each person in a marriage brings their life story into the marriage and those stories often do not mix well unless both parties are willing to work it out. So, is the problem today that our life stories are more incompatible than in the past? That people are less willing to "work things out?" That our consumption of media orients us towards a view that marriage is a short term proposition?

We do know that long term, close emotional relationships with companions/family is a fundamental need for humans and when those are lacking our mental state is less healthy. In most societies institutionalized marriage is/has been a way to foster that and build families. What is your alternative?
 
I'm sensing something very personal here that I'd rather not touch.

if it makes any difference, I'm single and I don't see myself as the marrying kind, but with that said, I still think I can show love/appreciation for many more people just in other ways...
Maybe, but it is not the same as being a committed couple. And for the record, I've been married a long time.
 
We do know that long term, close emotional relationships with companions/family is a fundamental need for humans and when those are lacking our mental state is less healthy. In most societies institutionalized marriage is/has been a way to foster that and build families. What is your alternative?
A more communal structure for raising children is foreseeably going to become a healthier looking alternative as time ticks on. I just don't see signs that marriage is going to rebound. Nor the nuclear family more generally, for that matter.
I'm sensing something very personal here that I'd rather not touch.
Not for me, I've never been married. I do think it's a bit like running a pass heavy offense when all your QB prospects are noodle arms with good legs, though.

The culture changed, it's producing different kinds of people and different goals, and we still try to plug them into a system that puts its personnel in roles they aren't suited to.

I don't really buy the 'marriage as timeless' argument, either. Most people lived as peasants for two thousand years. Now they don't.
 
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