Master buildings less tied to their lines

[feydras]

I love the new master buildings. They are fun and give interesting options. I especially like the mechanic of the armors and weapons that become obsolete when you upgrade your metal used (bronze, iron, mithril). I do think they could be improved however if they were less tied to the specific lines (melee, archer, recon). Also it would be nice if they didn't all require Great Engineers.

Ex of things to change/add..
Master Smith to allow purchasing the armor upgrade for any unit wearing significant metal armor, not just melee. So, Paladins and Knights would benefit but Warriors would not.

Master Outfitter to allow purchase of things like March Wine (haven't actually got this yet but it sounds like it allows +1 move) for any living unit. How about 'Monstrous Hide Armor' available for any unit using leather like armors - most Recon, some bowmen, lower level mounted. How about disease causing projectiles available for archers, javelin throwers, marksmen, or crossbowmen but not arquebus. Consider founding with a Great Merchant instead or in addition.

Master Fletcher needs to be reworked a bit. Adding mithril bowstrings to grant a +1 bonus feels strange. How about 'songwrought bows' (bows coaxed from the tree by special techniques) for achers, longbowmen and marksmen. Another idea would be to allow 'eldarwood bows' available only if the civ has access to any Ancient Forest tiles. Consider founding with a Great Artist instead or in addition.

This would also remove the need for every line to have the promos for every unit in the line which results in silly things like mithril bowstrings on Arquebus and Javelin throwers. I don't think Arquebus need to have a promo available but if desired a Master Alchemist (maybe built by a Great Scientist instead of Great Engineer) might be created that grants a choice of promos for special bullets. (+1 'heartstopper' bullets, acid bullets causing Rust, +1 fire for explosive bullets).

Anyway, love the new mechanic and most of the new implementation. I'm also curious if the AI is able to make any of the current master buildings work.

Thanks for the great work on the mod!

 

[Breez]

I must say I love the new buildings too.

Yesterday I had 2 warriors sitting off in a city un-upgraded pretty late in the game (I already had mitheral weapons). I bought them their sword, armor, and shield. Then upgraded them to Longbowmen. They kept their warrior equipment then promptly bought them their Bowmen upgrades. went from 3/3 warriors to 9/10 longbowmen in one turn.

By the way

Master Outfitter allows purchase of things like March Wine (haven't actually got this yet but it sounds like it allows +1 move) for any living unit.

Recon line only, just like all the Outfitter upgrades.

 

[Tarquelne]

went from 3/3 warriors to 9/10 longbowmen in one turn.

You are so busted. "Validate" added to Equipment promotions for next patch.

 

[WarKirby]

I don't think allowing the master smith building to give cavalry promotions would be a good idea, since they already have their own stuff.

I do agree that it's a bit silly for arquebusiers to get mythril bowstrings though. Although I think mythril bowstrings are a strange concept in general. the point of a bowstring is that it's soft and elastic. How can a metal perform that function? I'd rather see it renamed to something less silly. Mastercrafted bowstrings or somesuch,

One other problem I've noticed, there are no master equipment things for ships. I'd like a Mythril plated hull, please, for more strength. And Expert-Woven sails for better movement. Maybe a Master Shipwright building is needed.

 

[Tarquelne]

Although I think mythril bowstrings are a strange concept in general. the point of a bowstring is that it's soft and elastic. How can a metal perform that function?

Well, I assume it's an alloy involving ogamur, tarasang, or galvorn.

 

[DavidB1111]

Hmm, I've been able to have iron and some promotions that are supposed to be removed when you get iron. So, I don't know what's going on with them. Other than that, they work for me.

 

[kenken244]

I was confused about that at first, they are removed when you gain those promotions, not when you have those promotions, so they are removed when you upgrade your weapons.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, I assume it's an alloy involving ogamur, tarasang, or galvorn.

Wouldn't that just make it harder?

We may not know the exact properties of each of these, but even the most basic material science class should teach you that allows are never softer or less brittle that their component metals (or at least than the dominant metal).


Ogamur is already an alloy. The enchantment must be significant though for it to be flexible and elastic, or maybe it is made of really weak stuff.

Tarasang may be flexible, but it won't stretch so it isn't good for bows.

Galvorn is also a very hard inflexible allow. In Tolkien's work it seemed to be implied that it was a type of steel.


I still think that Mithril bowstrings seem quite odd.

 

[Valkrionn]

Agreed. Mithril arrows would be more fitting.

 

[xienwolf]

What's wrong with a fletcher named Mithril? Makes damn fine bowstrings he does, and nobody knows what he uses either...

He was found as an orphan and raised by Dwarves, quite a respectable name. He doesn't say that it is stupid to havea syrup made from Mrs. Butterworth, because obviously syrup tastes better when made from a Mrs. Fielderson, does he? No, because that would be species-ism, and he firmly supports the Silcon Anti-Deformation League.

 

[Tarquelne]

Wouldn't that just make it harder? ....

I still think that Mithril bowstrings seem quite odd.

Well, yes. But I thought it'd be more "accessible" than bringing in a whole new substance or enchantment. And it was my understanding that a process involving calcinated ogamur could be circulated with a tarasang/galvorn amalgam, the ablated portion when alloyed with mithril giving a metal excellent for musical instruments, mechanical toys, coach suspensions, and bow strings. Or you can use it for springs rather than something hard and brittle, like steel.

But I could just make something up. I guess I had a failure of imagination.

(I thought it was interesting that something thought of has hard might be so elastic is some configuration/form. Something else more suitable will be in the next patch. I guess an enchanted/magical/funky bowstring should use a substance already quite magical, and obviously so.)

 

[Celeborn]

Could be possible that the mithril is spun out into fine threads/wires and then woven into the otherwise elastic bowstring to strengthen it...


Just a thought...


PS. Most of the bend is in the bow itself and not the string.

 

[WarKirby]

Why not just make it Mythril Arrows instead, and solve all naming problems neatly

Maybe a dragon hair bowstring would be nice, too. do dragons have hairs, or fur of any kind?

 

[Celeborn]

Dragon sinew?

 

[feydras]

Uh.. anyone have any opinions on the ideas of the OP (me)?

 

[Tarquelne]

Why not just make it Mythril Arrows instead, and solve all naming problems neatly

Ammo may be introduced as a separate system later.

(And where some raise objections based on fantasy metallurgy and alchemy, others - such as myself - would raise objections based on the cost and overall effectiveness of shooting mithril at people. Of course such objections could be answered using fantasy metallurgy and alchemy, but why not save a step?)

As for using dragon parts - Yes, that's been done before. But I think they might be nigh-unobtainable for most on Erebus. OTOH, there are plenty of other creature parts that could be used. Demon sinew, for example. Spectre tongue (soaked in blood, to make it both corporeal and elastic.), etc. The real world is so rich in "odd" details. I'm not convinced a fantasy world should to be different.

 

[Tarquelne]

Ex of things to change/add..
Master Smith to allow purchasing the armor upgrade for any unit wearing significant metal armor, not just melee. So, Paladins and Knights would benefit but Warriors would not.

In addition to significant mechanical issues - nothing that can't be overcome, but it'd require a lot of gruntwork - there's balance concerns. Knights, for example, would seem to need access to many "Melee" promotions and some of the "Recon" promotions in addition to all the "Mounted" promotions.

Similar concerns with making March Wine available to all units.

Realistically, there's no reason any unit can't use most - maybe any - piece of Equipment. The actual limit would seem to be what an individual could carry - and that's where carts come in. But due to diminishing returns on both "realistic" effectiveness and coding time - and balance - we have to draw the line somewhere. Unitcombat is extremely convenient.

How about disease causing projectiles available for archers, javelin throwers, marksmen, or crossbowmen but not arquebus.

Ammo may be added later. (It was actually being discussed before Equipment.)

Consider founding with a Great Merchant instead or in addition.

How you get the buildings is a major issue, balance wise. It's still not settled AFAIK.

This would also remove the need for every line to have the promos for every unit in the line which results in silly things like mithril bowstrings on Arquebus and Javelin throwers.

That I agree with.

I'm also curious if the AI is able to make any of the current master buildings work.

I saw the AI make a Master building after getting a GE. I have no idea how common it is, though.

 

[MrUnderhill]

If you had to have a bowstring upgrade, I'd go for spider silk instead of mithril. Even in real-life it's stronger and more elastic than steel (it's basically the natural equivalent of kevlar), and silk gathered from giant spiders would be even more useful, I'd imagine. I can definitely see the Archos and both groups of elves harvesting silk from spiders for their bowstrings (or even light armor for their recon units), and it would make the Spider Pen building a lot more useful.

 

[Tarquelne]

I can definitely see the Archos and both groups of elves harvesting silk from spiders for their bowstrings (or even light armor for their recon units), and it would make the Spider Pen building a lot more useful.

If nothing else that's a great civ-specific Equipment idea.

 

[Breez]

You are so busted. "Validate" added to Equipment promotions for next patch.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=311252&page=2

haha