Master of Mana Xtended

[GenEngineer]

Perhaps arcane units should have a reverse scaling effect? Say, give them a combat aura that nerfs the spellcasting power of all friendly units by some amount, allow it to stack. That way, lone mages can be plenty potent, but they can't be made into unstoppable death-stacks.

 

[Psychodad]

Perhaps arcane units should have a reverse scaling effect? Say, give them a combat aura that nerfs the spellcasting power of all friendly units by some amount, allow it to stack. That way, lone mages can be plenty potent, but they can't be made into unstoppable death-stacks.

Stacking units is a substantial part of the game. Penalize this for arcane units seems very counterintuitive.

 

[A Moon]

That would actually be mildly lore-appropriate, given that the more people in the world, the weaker everyone's magic gets. Maybe having a lot of magic-users in once place might have a similar effect.

 

[Shoobs]

Feedback:
It feels really odd that a unique unit does not have any ability to scale, particularly when they're basically a tier 4 unit.

Unit:
Faerie Dragon
9/7.
Its good at attacking cities has +2 nature affinity, which the Aos Si already have. So its essentially 11/9. Does not scale whatsoever.

The problem? Its COMPLETELY outclassed by the War Elephant obtained by the same technology.
15, and scales.
Also applies to the War Tortoise and the Frost Drake.

Also why would you give an arcane unit any strength whatsoever? Dragon-Bone staff adds +3 strength ( not defensive strength, which it should give ), and doesn't really benefit spellcasting whatsoever.

 

[CarnivalBizarre]

Feedback:
It feels really odd that a unique unit does not have any ability to scale, particularly when they're basically a tier 4 unit.

Unit:
Faerie Dragon
9/7.
Its good at attacking cities has +2 nature affinity, which the Aos Si already have. So its essentially 11/9. Does not scale whatsoever.

The problem? Its COMPLETELY outclassed by the War Elephant obtained by the same technology.
15, and scales.
Also applies to the War Tortoise and the Frost Drake.

Also why would you give an arcane unit any strength whatsoever? Dragon-Bone staff adds +3 strength ( not defensive strength, which it should give ), and doesn't really benefit spellcasting whatsoever.

I think this is good points, and good to be brought up all these examples, since this is a modmodmodmod there are lots of legacy things to tweak and balance, and as soon as one changes something, something else is turned useless.

Esvath can adjust these things, but it is not like you have all units and all stats and all ways to get them in your head, so it is hard to remember all things to rebalance. So feedback like this is very useful.

Also, if anyone want's to help with adjusting and tweaking things, the mod is on https://sourceforge.net/projects/masterofmanaxtended/ and everyone is welcome to fiddle, and if you need help getting started just ask.

 

[esvath]

Beast units do not scale with tech is a deliberate design. I think it is weird to have beasts improved as you gain military techs. War Elephants scale because the elephants are being used as mounts. The soldiers can equip themselves and the elephants with any equipments and get better with more military knowledge.

The affinity is used to increase beast units' strength instead so that they can (somewhat) catch up with the military units. For some civs like Sheaim, having more mana affinities is actually more beneficial than pursuing military techs since they will rely on summoned beasts.

 

[Calavente]

Some few notes:
(I do not have the current version yet)
-playing Luirchip: artificers cannot equip the dwarven hammer or the dwarven armor (I don't remember the exact name).
I'm not sure the artificer special promotions are balanced:
-lightgolems : seems interesting... but artificer are limiter to 1mvt... so the golem outpaces it easily, especially on roads: so you don't make much use of it.
-the combat increase promotions don't seems to do much, especially when compared to "powerbuild" : +30% (and especially as there is no explanation on how they work).
-I like the golems, but it always feels to be a loss to use them to fight, losing xp, when you desesperatly need xp for the artificier.... (maybe golems could transfer a bit of xp to the articifier they depend from??) (see magister's method)
-maybe gargoyls could fly ? or paradrop?
-gargoyls and woodgolem have written "cannot equip gear/equipement". however, iron golem, marble golem and nullstone golem, which don't have this written cannot equip either... because they cannot get level 4. Maybe iron/marble/nullstone/...Etc could start at level4 so they could equip ?
-artificers are supposed to have +100%free xp gain, but it doesn't do anything... I suppose they do not have any base free xpgain (unless that's supposed to be the trainingyard one?) Maybe a +100%xp gain would be better.
-luirchips don't have any recon / mounted save from guilds. and their archer suck... in fact, they only have artificer and golems as worthwhile units, but artificer seems better promoted in the golem line than in the melee disciplines/promotions.

-I was bothered (as in sad) by the lack of choice in civics.
only 2 civic classes. and in both I have to go directly from low upkeep (18gold) to high upkeep (78 gold).... such upkeep negated quickly the seemingly huge bonus...
no civic reduces or impacts maintenance from city number/distance to palace.
-I did not have any on-map-image for cottages/hamlet/village.

otherwise I'm having fun with a builder game, developping 5-6 cities, and wandering the map killing lots of animals with barnaxus and an artificer on one side and a few artificers with golem for protection and adepts for softening the target in order to farm xp for those guys.
Now I've accepted a vassal and its' war with a neighbour and I'm using nullstone for breaking the elite, marbles golems for the CD, and artificer for mopping up and gaining xp. (I need 200+ xp before the artificer is really usefull : level6 for mastercrafted, then 7 for specialization: powerbuild or assault (sometimes defense), then 8: re-mastercrafted, then 9 for second speciallisation then mores levels for boosting artificer aura.
--> or maybe artificers should be arcane units (but keep their 10/10 str)!! so they are not forcefd to take combat 1/2/3 for their levels 2 and 3. + they could have a "free xp gain" that would make use of the "+100%free xp gain rate"

regarding the second speciallization:
-hidden vs life thingy, vs burning hand
-hidden : no real use atm: I don't have frail golems... or xp-expensive golems. Maybe I don't really understand the need (but at the same time I don't see the need either for hidden mage)
-life thingy: repair is at 50mana, 20 for an adept/mage : I'm not sure you need it. (saving a few mana as compared to the possibility of +100%defense or +3 fire str, especially for a promotion that is so xp-intensive)
-burning hand seems the most useful to me

but Maybe I need some tips to play better with them...

 

[User0918]

As I see it, there are several options to reduce the potency of spells without making them unworthy to use:

1. Increasing spell cost. Now spells usually cost 20 mana per cast. Maybe raise it to 30 or 40?
2. Delay the promotions that increase spell damage. The first of these might require min level of 4, the second might require Channeling II (so Adepts can not get it), the third might require Channeling III (so only for Archmage).
3. Increase the cost of Knowledge of the Arcane.
4. Increase the herb cost for arcane units.
5. Make various resist promotions easy to get (reducing prereqs of these, more protection from combat auras?).
6. Make some armors grant (small) protection from the elements. Some civ specific armors already do this, but maybe medium level armors should too?

Personally, I prefer increasing spell cost, making promotions that increase spell damage harder to get and increasing resist from combat auras but I'd love to hear feedbacks.

I like all those suggestions, the only problem I see with armour/promotions is: would the AI really make good use of it? As it stands right now, it seems to be completely oblivious to the power magic possesses. So I guess increasing the cost would be the more effective way to do it, because it would put the handicap where it matters, on the human player. The AI almost totally neglects magic (apart from summons), so the armour thing would hardly effect my playstyle, only theirs.

I got some more ideas to add to the pool:

1. Add a (short) cooldown to any offensive spell except the basic attack (magic missile). So low-level spells can only be cast every other turn, mid-tier spells every 3 turns and so on. That way you also slow down the XP gain, because magic missile doesn't give any. As it is right now, spellcasters level up insanely fast, because they gain 3XP per hit (up to a limit of 40XP), whereas non-magic units only gain 1XP (per kill). I'm playing with slower XP, the ratio is probably different without it.

2. Limit the damage spells can do in a siege. Atm you can completely destroy a city garrison by using magic. Make it similar to artillery, where you can't damage the defenders beyond a certain threshold. The percentages could get higher the more powerful the spell is. Low-level spells have a limit of 25%, the top-tier ones can damage up to 75%...maybe?

3. The main offender in terms of imbalance is still the "Sorcery Discipline" promotion. It increases the number of spelltargets by 100%...one hundred percent! That's the equivalent of the Blitz promotion for non-casters. The difference is, whereas Blitz has a minimum level requirement of 10, SD can be attained by an adept as soon as he did aquire 30 XP. Which, because of the very high XP gain (see point 1.), can theoretically be achieved 10 turns after you first got him. That's out of line with the discipline promotions that any other units can take at that point.
This has to be reduced at least to 50%. Because at that point, you pretty much don't have to care about your spellcasters promotions anymore, it's really all they need to be absolutely devastating against anything.

So that's it. I'm not saying that all these changes are necessary, but taking care of number 3 would probably reduce the disparity between casters/non-casters by quite a bit.

 

[Shoobs]

Beast units do not scale with tech is a deliberate design. I think it is weird to have beasts improved as you gain military techs. War Elephants scale because the elephants are being used as mounts. The soldiers can equip themselves and the elephants with any equipments and get better with more military knowledge.

The affinity is used to increase beast units' strength instead so that they can (somewhat) catch up with the military units. For some civs like Sheaim, having more mana affinities is actually more beneficial than pursuing military techs since they will rely on summoned beasts.

The reasoning behind the War Tortoise then? Same thing as the War Elephant ( also the other reason the war elephant can be allowable is that its not "buildable" in the sense you can just make it in town. You need to catch it and then upgrade it which costs time, recon units, and money.



I like all those suggestions, the only problem I see with armour/promotions is: would the AI really make good use of it? As it stands right now, it seems to be completely oblivious to the power magic possesses. So I guess increasing the cost would be the more effective way to do it, because it would put the handicap where it matters, on the human player. The AI almost totally neglects magic (apart from summons), so the armour thing would hardly effect my playstyle, only theirs.



As Aos Si, the only reason I was able to fight back against an orc surprise attack was having 3 recon heros and a few faerie dragons. They came at me hard with shamans that cast fireball 3 times in one turn laying waste to several defending units. They also do not ignore magic. They use terraforming spells and offensive and defensive enchantments.

 

[Calavente]

1. Add a (short) cooldown to any offensive spell except the basic attack (magic missile). So low-level spells can only be cast every other turn, mid-tier spells every 3 turns and so on. That way you also slow down the XP gain, because magic missile doesn't give any. As it is right now, spellcasters level up insanely fast, because they gain 3XP per hit (up to a limit of 40XP), whereas non-magic units only gain 1XP (per kill). I'm playing with slower XP, the ratio is probably different without it.

2. Limit the damage spells can do in a siege. Atm you can completely destroy a city garrison by using magic. Make it similar to artillery, where you can't damage the defenders beyond a certain threshold. The percentages could get higher the more powerful the spell is. Low-level spells have a limit of 25%, the top-tier ones can damage up to 75%...maybe?

3. The main offender in terms of imbalance is still the "Sorcery Discipline" promotion. It increases the number of spelltargets by 100%...one hundred percent! That's the equivalent of the Blitz promotion for non-casters. The difference is, whereas Blitz has a minimum level requirement of 10, SD can be attained by an adept as soon as he did aquire 30 XP. Which, because of the very high XP gain (see point 1.), can theoretically be achieved 10 turns after you first got him. That's out of line with the discipline promotions that any other units can take at that point.
This has to be reduced at least to 50%. Because at that point, you pretty much don't have to care about your spellcasters promotions anymore, it's really all they need to be absolutely devastating against anything.

So that's it. I'm not saying that all these changes are necessary, but taking care of number 3 would probably reduce the disparity between casters/non-casters by quite a bit.

for me its mostly that the xp from kills is affected by slower xp but the xp from spells is not.
however while I agree that it is strong, I think it is necessary... as you don't have much ways to get xp on arcane units.
however I'd rather have more way to which they could get increased xp... even when you are not at war.
maybe summons spells and terraform and global enchantement could give some xp to arcane units, either when they are casted, or when in use. (Maybe one-shot spells could give a fixed amount: giving xp to up to 5 arcane units 200mana (5*40 = 5*3xp: 15xp if if was a fireball) : 5xp to a first unit, then 4 to a second if there is one, then 3xp...ec
and maybe summons and global enchantement spells could give a increase rate of free xp by how much they cost (as if all arcane units were participating to maintaining the summon / the spell): a aurealis costs 5/turn, all arcane unit get 5% increase on free xp gain.


thresholds: I agree ! currently the spells are too strongs and OP.
mostly they are too strong because the affect in the same % a 7str unit and a 30str unit.
IMO, there should be higher thresholds values.
So maybe the spell effect (%) could be reduced by either def str of unit or def% (so fortified units are more protected against spells) or def str modified by def% or level or all of that !

+100%targets: I disagree.. many spells have only 1 target or 2. giving +50% would give no effect on target number for spell-arrow or lightning or the like.
I further disagree that it is like "blitz"... it is more like "collateral damage": you can only target one tile. further, in the case of blitz, you kill the ennemy.. while in an ideal world, spells (especially basic ones) should not be able to kill any unit.

 

[User0918]

As Aos Si, the only reason I was able to fight back against an orc surprise attack was having 3 recon heros and a few faerie dragons. They came at me hard with shamans that cast fireball 3 times in one turn laying waste to several defending units. They also do not ignore magic. They use terraforming spells and offensive and defensive enchantments.

Yes, they indeed use enchantments, totally forgot about those. Why? Because getting hit with Desertification/Blight every other round is nothing to really get too worried about, that doesn't conquer cities. Those fireballs you mentioned though, those do conquer cities.

Please believe me when I say that I'm not here to brag about skills or anything, but I'm playing on Deity (Marathon) with Aggressive AI and Slower XP and I still have absolutely no problem to completely trash the other civs midgame by focusing on spells. The AI has no clue how to use spellcasters effectively. Clan of Embers uses Aurealis quite a bit, that unit has a fire aura, if you combine that with a shaman it might pose some sort of threat. But in general, as soon as my adept production is underway, I might as well restart, because the struggle for survival is basically over.
With 5-10 adepts you can avert ANY kind of threat.

 

[User0918]

+100%targets: I disagree.. many spells have only 1 target or 2. giving +50% would give no effect on target number for spell-arrow or lightning or the like.
I further disagree that it is like "blitz"... it is more like "collateral damage": you can only target one tile. further, in the case of blitz, you kill the ennemy.. while in an ideal world, spells (especially basic ones) should not be able to kill any unit.

Here's what I did in the last rounds: Get your hands on air mana. Convert 2-3 more nodes to air. Use Lightning Bolt. Stuff dies. Might be Lightning Bolt exclusive due to its apparently high critical damage, but 5-10 adepts (with 100% spelltargets) casting this spell clear a city of everything, you just have to walk in an claim it. Yes it's that ridiculous. And you can do this forever without ever getting damage, I cleared my last map with just 8 mages and 1 knight (to dissuade the AI to attack the stack).

Explosion (Chaos mana) should be equally effective, cause it hits 3 targets. When you get to mid-tier spells, basically any mana has spells that hit multiple targets at once.

By reducing it to 50% you could still get to 100%, but you have to get to Spelltargets III, which might take you just a bit longer to do (think it's restricted to mage/archmage).

 

[Shoobs]

Here's what I did in the last rounds: Get your hands on air mana. Convert 2-3 more nodes to air. Use Lightning Bolt. Stuff dies. Might be Lightning Bolt exclusive due to its apparently high critical damage, but 5-10 adepts (with 100% spelltargets) casting this spell clear a city of everything, you just have to walk in an claim it. Yes it's that ridiculous. And you can do this forever without ever getting damage, I cleared my last map with just 8 mages and 1 knight (to dissuade the AI to attack the stack).

Explosion (Chaos mana) should be equally effective, cause it hits 3 targets. When you get to mid-tier spells, basically any mana has spells that hit multiple targets at once.

By reducing it to 50% you could still get to 100%, but you have to get to Spelltargets III, which might take you just a bit longer to do (think it's restricted to mage/archmage).

I will definitely concede that spells do overall too much damage. Particularly to higher strength units. Sephi WAS working on a solution to this with his completely different style of combat with v231 and later ( which we never got ).

 

[esvath]

How about this:

1. 1st Tier spells have their damage reduced (normal = 15%). They will also have damage cap (~80%) thus unable to kill enemies.
   • Fireball : 6 target, normal damage.
   • Lightning Spark : 2 target, higher crit chance, normal damage.
   • Explosion : 3 target, displaces enemies, lower damage.
   • Nether Blade : 1 target, higher damage.
   • Sunlight : 2 target, immobilise enemies, lower damage.
   • Curse : 3 target, lower damage.
2. 2nd Tier have the same damage as 1st Tier, but can kill enemies. These spells require Channeling II.
3. 3rd Tier have increased base damage, can kill enemies. These require Channeling III.
4. Spell Damage II requires Channeling II, Spell Damage III requires Channeling III.
5. Sorcery Discipline increases spell target by 50%.
6. Adepts require 100 Herbs, Mages require 150 Herbs and Archmage requires 200 Herbs.

What do you think?

Btw, AI at this moment uses spells but they put more priority for Summoning.

 

[BlueGenie]

What about adding spell protection equal to the Cities normal defence bonus when casting spells on cities (and forts and the barb forts)?
After all casting into a city would be casting blind, you can not see what is behind that wall you are casting behind, or inside buildings.

 

[CarnivalBizarre]

The AI can determine what spell cast will cause most damage, as far as what I can see in the code. The problem is that it chooses to summon until it has no mana income, also as far as I can see in the code, which would make it's mana supplies run out fast.
Also, mana income is major part of spell research early in the game, and it misses out on that too.

I am not sure if there is any python ruling this also thought, that was just from the dll code

 

[User0918]

The AI can determine what spell cast will cause most damage, as far as what I can see in the code. The problem is that it chooses to summon until it has no mana income, also as far as I can see in the code, which would make it's mana supplies run out fast.
Also, mana income is major part of spell research early in the game, and it misses out on that too.

I am not sure if there is any python ruling this also thought, that was just from the dll code

That would explain a lot of things. Now that I look back, some civs had unusual high numbers of summons, in the case of Clan of Embers it was lots of Aurealis. Dark spectres seem to be a favourite among the civs that start with death mana. Summons do count towards the population limit but are not limited by it, so you can spawn them as long as your mana supply lasts.

Maybe set the AI a limit on how many summons they can have at any given time by comparing upkeep cost to mana income? Summons do have their place in early to mid-game, but because the affinity caps out at a certain point, normal units catch up after some time. Then it would become more beneficial for the AI to go full spellcasting.

 

[Calavente]

How about this:

1. 1st Tier spells have their damage reduced (normal = 15%). They will also have damage cap (~80%) thus unable to kill enemies.
   • Fireball : 6 target, normal damage.
   • Lightning Spark : 2 target, higher crit chance, normal damage.
   • Explosion : 3 target, displaces enemies, lower damage.
   • Nether Blade : 1 target, higher damage.
   • Sunlight : 2 target, immobilise enemies, lower damage.
   • Curse : 3 target, lower damage.
2. 2nd Tier have the same damage as 1st Tier, but can kill enemies. These spells require Channeling II.
3. 3rd Tier have increased base damage, can kill enemies. These require Channeling III.
4. Spell Damage II requires Channeling II, Spell Damage III requires Channeling III.
5. Sorcery Discipline increases spell target by 50%.
6. Adepts require 100 Herbs, Mages require 150 Herbs and Archmage requires 200 Herbs.

What do you think?

Btw, AI at this moment uses spells but they put more priority for Summoning.

I like it, but would limit how spells kill units:

1. 1st Tier spells have their damage reduced (normal = 15%). They will also have damage cap (~50%) thus unable to kill enemies. that would mean:
   • Fireball : 6 target, normal damage.(6*15: 90% damage total: 4 spells to get to max)
   • Lightning Spark : 2 target, higher crit chance, normal damage.(30-60% damage total: 2-3 spells to get to max)
   • Explosion : 3 target, displaces enemies, lower damage. (3*10: 30% damage total: 5-6 spells to get to max)
   • Nether Blade : 1 target, higher damage.(30% damage total (if doubled): 2 spells to get to max)
   • Sunlight : 2 target, immobilise enemies, lower damage.(30% damage total: 4 spells to get to max)
   • Curse : 3 target, lower damage. leaves a cursed promotion (30 damage total: 4 spells to get to max)
   as you can see here, nether blade is weakest: 30% maximum, no effect remaining (4 adepts give 120%damage)/ fireball is way OP: up to 90% damage: 4 adepts give 6 units at 50%: 300%-360% damage. lightning spark has no effect but potential of bigger effect.
   I would put fireball at (5 targets, lower damage):50% total: less than a lucky lightning, but on 5 units.
   and explosion at 3 target, displaces enemies, normal damage : 45% (displacing is not as strong, especially against cities)
2. 2nd Tier have the increased damage as 1st Tier (base 20 instead of 15), but can get to 70%damage to enemies. These spells require Channeling II.
3. 3rd Tier have increased base damage (base 30 instead of 15), can kill enemies, more targets. These require Channeling III.
4. Spell Damage II requires Channeling II (+5/ modified by "lower damage/increased damage"), Spell Damage III (+5 modified by "lower damage/increased damage": lvl3+spell damage increase3 is at 45 : 30 for curse/90 for netherblade) requires Channeling III.
5. Sorcery Discipline increases spell target by 50%.
6. Adepts require 100 Herbs, Mages require 150 Herbs and Archmage requires 200 Herbs.
7. Spell resistance in increased by Str of unit (or spell damage is reduced by str of unit) ; can be increased by armors/promotions

 

[Shoobs]

I like it, but would limit how spells kill units:

1. 1st Tier spells have their damage reduced (normal = 15%). They will also have damage cap (~50%) thus unable to kill enemies. that would mean:
   • Fireball : 6 target, normal damage.(6*15: 90% damage total: 4 spells to get to max)
   • Lightning Spark : 2 target, higher crit chance, normal damage.(30-60% damage total: 2-3 spells to get to max)
   • Explosion : 3 target, displaces enemies, lower damage. (3*10: 30% damage total: 5-6 spells to get to max)
   • Nether Blade : 1 target, higher damage.(30% damage total (if doubled): 2 spells to get to max)
   • Sunlight : 2 target, immobilise enemies, lower damage.(30% damage total: 4 spells to get to max)
   • Curse : 3 target, lower damage. leaves a cursed promotion (30 damage total: 4 spells to get to max)
   as you can see here, nether blade is weakest: 30% maximum, no effect remaining (4 adepts give 120%damage)/ fireball is way OP: up to 90% damage: 4 adepts give 6 units at 50%: 300%-360% damage. lightning spark has no effect but potential of bigger effect.
   I would put fireball at (5 targets, lower damage):50% total: less than a lucky lightning, but on 5 units.
   and explosion at 3 target, displaces enemies, normal damage : 45% (displacing is not as strong, especially against cities)
2. 2nd Tier have the increased damage as 1st Tier (base 20 instead of 15), but can get to 70%damage to enemies. These spells require Channeling II.
3. 3rd Tier have increased base damage (base 30 instead of 15), can kill enemies, more targets. These require Channeling III.
4. Spell Damage II requires Channeling II (+5/ modified by "lower damage/increased damage"), Spell Damage III (+5 modified by "lower damage/increased damage": lvl3+spell damage increase3 is at 45 : 30 for curse/90 for netherblade) requires Channeling III.
5. Sorcery Discipline increases spell target by 50%.
6. Adepts require 100 Herbs, Mages require 150 Herbs and Archmage requires 200 Herbs.
7. Spell resistance in increased by Str of unit (or spell damage is reduced by str of unit) ; can be increased by armors/promotions

I'm mixed on whether letting mages fully kill units.
What I think is needed, though, is making sure spells target the least damaged units in a stack as spells tend to NOT switch targets.

 

[esvath]

I tried my above proposal and found myself asking this: if spells are this weak, then why bother casting them?
It is better for me to use summons since:

• Summons can kill.
• Summons' strength are increased by mana affinity, making them somewhat useful until mid/late game.
• Summons can get promotions, which increase their strength and abilities further.
• The only drawback of summons is that they can be killed.

Summons are better investment for spending mana, imho.

What do you think?