Math02: 100K with limited cities

[Methos]

Madrid needs to move the citizen off the cow and to one of the mined cow so we don’t waste food.

I would suggest we build towards the west, at least near the bg’s. Also we should make sure we control both the wines and gems.

We only have three cities left to build so we should definitely discuss where we should put them. I’ve added an image of several possibilities, though in truth I’m unsure of exactly how good they are. Just some possibilities.

 

[Obormot]

I don't like the idea of building cities in the jungle. Od course, when we clear the jungle we'll get some good land, but we'll need culture in those cities soon and clearing jungle will take some time.

I'd suggest one city west of toledo to grab the gold hill, banana and some BGs and two more on our SW coast to grab sugar, wines and fish.

 

[pindicator]

If we are going to get the Oracle, I assume that Barcelona is the city to build it in. With Philosophy assuredly ours, perhaps now is the best time to trade Writing to pick up IW and Mysticism and start on the Oracle.

I've no problem with your city sites Methias, except possibly how far out the yellow one on your map is. We could place it east of Madrid -- in a position that will require a lot more work to make productive, but will also have less corruption when it is up and running. It'd be nice to grab that gold hill too.

Wherever we pick our city sites, we are going to need a lot of workers to hack jungle to make them productive towns. After we revolt we'll easily be able to turn Madrid into a 2-turn worker factory.

 

[miller4242]

This is a very interesting SG. I will be lurking this one for sure. Good luck!

 

[Mathias]

Settler in Seville is good, but I don't like the changes in Madrid. I also wonder why our curraghs are heading west, when they should have rushed east. I don't want to dictate the game, but when suggestions are made, I expect them to be followed or for alternatives to be posted before being played. I would rather have turns played every two to three days than rush through and make mistakes.

Now then, this kind of position is why I have not played this variant through. I get 4 or 5 decent cities, then the terrain beyond that is rather poor. So that we don't have to worry so much about where to place the rest of our cities, we can go ahead and build up to ten: 2 in the west, 2 in the south, and 1 to the east. The next should be built in the west, one tile NE of the marsh, where we can have the gold and the fruit. I was thinking about positioning the second western city where it could have 6 hills. That would be a powerhouse in the late middle ages.

I've got it, but probably won't play until tomorrow afternoon.

 

[MeteorPunch]

If we build our last cities so far away from the capital, won't they be corrupt? Shouldn't there be 5 cities surrounding the capitol, the rest on the outside? Or will corruption not be bad because of so few cities.

 

[pindicator]

Taking a look at cities...

Question: Will we hit enough cities to trigger the FP? I'm thinking no, but am not certain.

As has been stated by wiser people, what we are going for are finding the optimal city sites at size 12, since most of our culture buildings will be produced before then. We have already picked 5 good spots and the other three are going to be tough because there aren't too many more spots that just jump out.

Here are the possibilities as I see them:

#1
A city site 2NW of the whales east of Madrid would take work to get online, clearing away jungle, but would pick up the gems and have low corruption.

#2
A city site NW of the fish located southwest of Madrid. This city would pick up 1BG, Sugar, Fish, and have relatively easy land to work. Plus low corruption. Moving #2 one tile west also seems a good alternative site.

#3
A city site in the far southwest of our continent. This would pick up all three sugar resources, but we would have to drag irrigation to make it work and it would have worse corruption.

#4
Again in the far southwest, this time going north a bit and picking a spot directly south of the grapes. Two hills, grapes, and sugar are our reward. Irrigation and corruption are the downfalls.

#5
A city to pick up the gold hill, banana, and other nice land in the north. Best location is probably 2SW of the gold.

Now, #3 looks to be exclusive with #2 and #4. Looking at the map, I am not entirely decided. #5 seems to be the only one that sticks out as one we should grab, but if the corruption is bad enough all the bonuses in the world won't help there. I don't like the looks of #3, but that's a gut feeling and not calculated. Numbers 1, 2, & 4 all look decent. If the corruption in #5 is too much to put a city out there I vote for 1, 2, & 4. Otherwise I'd have to think about it.

I'll turn it over to the forum for discussion.

 

[Methos]

The FP requires eight cities, hence Mathias's original plan of allowing only eight cities; so we're good there. Also remember Spain is Commercial so our corruption will be lower than typical.

So it's ten cities now? Ok.

I'd have to say keeping the cities closer to the capitol the way you did would definitely be better on corruption. As to city placement I'm not that good at picking, so for now I'll wait and listen.

 

[MeteorPunch]

@Pindicator's dotmap. I like #1 and #2. That's where I would put those

The last city would be 3 tiles north of #4 to get all those hills.

EDIT: our culture will grab the wines.

 

[MeteorPunch]

@Methos: I think it's still 8 cities, but he put 5 for ideas of where to put them.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Thank you, Beorn. You made my point so clear, that I don't even have to post it.

Just let the record say that once in my life, I have written something clear in english

 

[Obormot]

@Mathias
I've posted that i'm going to build 2 settlers in a row in Madrid and after that start a prbuild, and i didn't see any objections. Sorry for the curraghs, but i don't really see any difference where to make suicide runs. I've sent one to the eastern tip, and 2 others to the western ends of the 2 continents.

 

[pindicator]

Okay, since we'll be able to FP, my vote goes for my dotmap #1 and #5 and Meteor's suggestion on moving #4 three tiles north. We can put the FP in the western half of our lands and we should have a good hold on our resources. It will take a lot of work to get 1&4 running, but once we get out of despotism we should be making workers a lot easier.

Also consider that we don't yet have The Wheel or Iron Working so don't know where those resources lie.

Edit: @Mathias -- am I right in reading that you want to up it to 10 cities now? I'd like to stick with 8 if we can.

 

[Methos]

Edit: @Mathias -- am I right in reading that you want to up it to 10 cities now? I'd like to stick with 8 if we can.

I would have to agree, the challenge of doing this in eight cities seems a lot more interesting than upping it to ten. Just a thought.

 

[Obormot]

I thought about it and i still don't like the idea of building cities in the jungle: We need to get temples and libraries there very quickly, but we won't be able to clear that jungle fast enough. So i am strictly against #1 on that dotmap. It doesn't even have any hills for MA production, so it'll be bad both in AA and MA.

If we stick to 8 cities, my vote goes to #5 (we have to build it first, before koreans get it), then #4, and then one W of #2 to grab 2 hills, BG and 2 sugars.

 

[Mathias]

@Obormot: While I didn't exactly object to your plan, I did post more detailed build orders for Madrid. In that same post, I suggested clearing a forest to speed production of the granary in Barcelona and sending all of our curraghs east. It just seemd to me that you mostly overlooked my post.

OK, we'll stick with 8 cities. We seem to be unanimous on #5, and that we should build it next. One tile west of #2 is also a popular site, so we'll plan on building there. For the last city, I still want to build three tiles north of #4. I'm not terribly fond of building in the jungle, either, but six hills is six hills. This massively productive site is also my choice for FP. I would clear the forest there on the same turn that we build the city. That would give us one grassland to work and speed up the temple.

 

[Methos]

Question: Since war reduces culture accumulated and we don't plan on having more than eight cities, what do we do about demands? Personally for now I would say give in to them all.

Is anyone absolutely sure how war affects our culture accumulation? Is it by half?

 

[Obormot]

War doesn't affect culture, only mobilisation does.
So if we have enough units we can warmonger as much as we want.
But still I think we have to concentrate on building culture buildings, not units and thus we'll have to give in to demands if we have a small army.
Later on when we manage to build a decent army, we should start a war to get the Heroic Epic which gives lots of culutre, and maybe leaders to rush some small wonders. Also razing enemy capitals and core cities to prevent them from building wonders could be good

 

[Mathias]

1500 BC (0)
Trades:
Writing to Korea for Mathematics and The Wheel
The Wheel to Ottomans for Iron Working and Mysticism
The Wheel to Maya for 20 gold

1475 BC (1)
Settler heads for southern site because settler from Seville would be at western site just as quickly.

IT: Philosophy >> Republic >> Literature (no revolution, waiting for settler)

1450 BC (2)
Science 0% (revolt next turn)
Two curraghs dodge out into the NE and SW oceans. There is sea in the fog near NE curragh.

IT: Seville Settler >> Granary

1425 BC (3)
Both curraghs have survived, and both can reach coast next turn.
Warrior/settler in Seville head for western city site.
REVOLUTION: 2 turns

IT: Curragh sinks in SW ocean

1400 BC (4)
Curragh safe in NE
Barcelona and Madrid each get an entertainer

IT: Republic

1375 BC (5)
Curragh dodges west near Philadelphia, can reach coast next turn.
Salamanca founded >> Temple
Entertainers put back to work. Lux 10%, science 70%

1350 BC (6)
Curragh safe in far east
NE curragh sees Hittite border

IT: Toledo Worker >> Temple

1325 BC (7)
Murcia founded >> Temple
Meet the Hittites: They have Horseback Riding, lack Mysticism, Mathematics, Philosophy, and Code of Laws.

1300 BC (8)
Blah...

1275 BC (9)
Lux 20%, Science 50%

IT: Santiago Worker >> Temple

1250 BC (10)
Blah...

Worker near Madrid has not moved this turn. Can either build road now, or step to improve BG first. Worker clearing forest near Toledo, those shields can go to either Toledo or Seville. Switch one of them to a wonder to force the shields to the other. Murcia citizen working banana jungle for extra commerce. Switch to BG just before growth, because we will get 2 out of three shields at size 2.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Got it and will play later today.