Maximizing Great Leader Appearances

[MAS]

On a serious note:
Being a militaristic civ has no direct effect on the chance of GL's, it only gives you a bigger chance to get elite units!

About all the superstitiousness:
It is not at all such a stopid thing the think that winning a battle against the odds should give a bigger chance to get a GL. And when the odds are in your fav, it should decrease the chance.
However, this just happens not to be the case in civ3.
Just so that you know!

 

[philippe]

i get about 1 great leader per 3 turns.
Dont get why so many poeple dont get them so much?

 

[Mephisto]

yeh, w/ modern armor around, leader actually becomes cheap.

but one just need to fight more wars, much more wars.

 

[Evincar]

So Mephisto gets to what most of us think;

war is good. Peace is good for preparing a war

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by MadHatter
This "Great Leader" issue is driving me nuts. I can't sleep at night! HELP!

Great Leader is so easy to come by.

1. Chose the militaristic trait as your civ.

2. Build barrack before building oftensive units.

3. At this point we are at the mercy of the random God. Since the first GL is very rare to come by, once you get him, turn him into the army and send it against some easy target.

4. Start building the Hero Epic as soon as possible.

5. Now, we wait until we get artillery unit. In the mean time, stockpile as much cavalries and catapults as possible. And alot of golds too, we need golds to upgrade.

6. Once we have at least 100 artilleries and 100 cavalries, let's start taking over the world.

7. Play defensively at the beginning of the war. Wait for the AIs to launch their stack of dead at us.

8. Use artilleries to reduce all enemy HP to 1, then send in our cavalries to finish them off. Since our cavalries can be able to move at least 3 tiles, we should be able to attack and withdraw back into our safe heaven to heal in the same turn. Note: we are just going to attack with veteran cavalry; 4 HP vs 1 HP, we usually win at least 9 out 10. Eventually, all our cavalries are elite.

9. Since we are running out of veteran cavalry, we have no choice but to send our very best 'elite' cavalry into battle. Of course, 5 HP vs 1 HP, our chance of winning would also increase tremendously. There is a chance for the GL to be born in every battle.

Basically, after I build the Hero Epic, it is really easy to get GL. Note: Artillery is the key to produce GL. After I get artillery, I rarely send my troops against anything that has more than 1 HP. Of course, other than the first 1 or 2 luckly leader, I get most of them during the age of artillery.

 

[Hades]

The leaders are needed mostly in the early game, but they appear a lot only when I have tanks, when I have nothing to rush. AIs don't seem to have a lot of leaders either.

 

[Evincar]

Can Someone explain me wether being militaristic increases the chances of getting leaders???

I sure get quite a lot of leaders while playing militaristic (YES, specially when I play THAT civ, and yes, usually from their UU), but is the chance of getting a GL increased, or it's only the bigger amount of Elites???

Mike B. save us

 

[Hades]

Originally posted by Evincar
Can Someone explain me wether being militaristic increases the chances of getting leaders???

I sure get quite a lot of leaders while playing militaristic (YES, specially when I play THAT civ, and yes, usually from their UU), but is the chance of getting a GL increased, or it's only the bigger amount of Elites???

Mike B. save us

You get more GL only because you get more elite units.

 

[kring]

Originally posted by Evincar
Can Someone explain me wether being militaristic increases the chances of getting leaders???

I sure get quite a lot of leaders while playing militaristic (YES, specially when I play THAT civ, and yes, usually from their UU), but is the chance of getting a GL increased, or it's only the bigger amount of Elites???

Mike B. save us

Buried in the copy/paste below shows Mike B's answer:This is from a response to a post at CivFanatics by etj4Eagle about Great Leaders.


Specifically:
----------
Odds with Heroic Epic = 1/12
Odds without Heroic Epic = 1/16
The odds are halved for defenders (1/24 and 1/32).

Mike B
-----------

The rest of the copy paste is from a thread, linked at the bottom, that Mike B responded to several times regarding GL's.



Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each unit can produce at most one great leader. Each time a unit is upgraded, however, it can once again produce a great leader. You can have more than one great leader per game but only one at a time.

Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games

Add On (Edited In):

Originally posted by Loopy

This would also imply that armies (since units within can be promoted) could in theory spawn as many leaders as they have units. The limit of 1 per makes total sense given the exploit Killer identified. Preventing unloading and reloading units from armies makes sense too.

I don't know how useful knowing the actual mechanism would be to know if I'm right. Care to comment Beer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Units in armies cannot spawn leaders because an army is already led by the leader that created it. Also, leaders cannot be spawned from combat with barbarians (this was not changed in a patch -- it has always worked this way).

Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games

EDIT

Additional info:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sumthinelse


Mike, welcome back.

I am not sure exactly what this statement means, though. Does it mean:

1) That when an army wins a victory a leader can never be created as a result of such combat?

2) That when an army wins a victory it can create one leader but only one, even though the army can have more than one unit in it? I suppose that the army would have to be ''elite'' but I don't think I have ever seen an elite army, although I have seen armies with elite units in them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It means:
1) when an army wins a victory a leader can never be created as a result of such combat.
_____
Mike

Originally posted by sumthinelse

Mike B., is it possible for an army (not the units in it) to be promoted to elite? Never saw one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Armies are never promoted and do not really have an experience level. (I believe they will be stored internally as either Regualr or Veteran but it is never used for armies).


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike B., does it look like the odds 1/12 and 1/16 are applied under the correct conditions (before/after Heroic Epic) for generating a leader?
----

Odds with Heroic Epic = 1/12
Odds without Heroic Epic = 1/16
The odds are halved for defenders (1/24 and 1/32).

Mike

Originally posted by IDSmoker
Can units with the 'blitz' attribute (the ability to attack more than once per turn) create GLs on any attack other than their first?
----

Yes.

quote:
----
Can a blitz unit that gets promoted on it's first attack, create a GL on it's subsequent attacks?
----

Yes.

quote:
----
Originall posted by PaleHorse76
Hopefully Firaxis will make the ELITE units visually different someday.
----

I'm experimenting with giving the player the option of renaming units that generate a leader.

Mike

quote:
----
Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
When you right click on a square why can't all the units in the list that produced Great Leaders just have a star (*) beside them? No renaming and if you upgrade the unit the star disappears cause it's eligible to produce a GL again.

CB
----
Good idea!

Mike

quote:
----
Originally posted by sumthinelse
Is it possible that we could get some solution like the * in a patch before PTW comes out? Note, I said possible, not a promise.
----

Both this and the option to rename units that spawn a leader will probably be included in the editor update (though I can't make any guarantees...).
_____
Mike

<b> They were added in the 1.29f patch </b>

Zigeuner, our very own Zig, has found out that Artillery with Lethal Bombardment turned on CAN create a Great Leader, way to go Zig.
Originally posted by Loopy

This would also imply that armies (since units within can be promoted) could in theory spawn as many leaders as they have units. The limit of 1 per makes total sense given the exploit Killer identified. Preventing unloading and reloading units from armies makes sense too.

I don't know how useful knowing the actual mechanism would be to know if I'm right. Care to comment Beer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Units in armies cannot spawn leaders because an army is already led by the leader that created it. Also, leaders cannot be spawned from combat with barbarians (this was not changed in a patch -- it has always worked this way).

Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games

EDIT

Additional info:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sumthinelse


Mike, welcome back.

I am not sure exactly what this statement means, though. Does it mean:

1) That when an army wins a victory a leader can never be created as a result of such combat?

2) That when an army wins a victory it can create one leader but only one, even though the army can have more than one unit in it? I suppose that the army would have to be ''elite'' but I don't think I have ever seen an elite army, although I have seen armies with elite units in them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It means:
1) when an army wins a victory a leader can never be created as a result of such combat.


__________________
Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games

New info:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sumthinelse

Mike B., is it possible for an army (not the units in it) to be promoted to elite? Never saw one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Armies are never promoted and do not really have an experience level. (I believe they will be stored internally as either Regualr or Veteran but it is never used for armies).


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike B., does it look like the odds 1/12 and 1/16 are applied under the correct conditions (before/after Heroic Epic) for generating a leader?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Odds with Heroic Epic = 1/12
Odds without Heroic Epic = 1/16
The odds are halved for defenders (1/24 and 1/32).


Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games

Originally posted by IDSmoker
Can units with the 'blitz' attribute (the ability to attack more than once per turn) create GLs on any attack other than their first?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can a blitz unit that gets promoted on it's first attack, create a GL on it's subsequent attacks?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originall posted by PaleHorse76
Hopefully Firaxis will make the ELITE units visually different someday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm experimenting with giving the player the option of renaming units that generate a leader.

Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games

NB: This last was put in the 1.29f patch

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
When you right click on a square why can't all the units in the list that produced Great Leaders just have a star (*) beside them? No renaming and if you upgrade the unit the star disappears cause it's eligible to produce a GL again.

CB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Good idea!

Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sumthinelse
Is it possible that we could get some solution like the * in a patch before PTW comes out? Note, I said possible, not a promise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Both this and the option to rename units that spawn a leader will probably be included in the editor update (though I can't make any guarantees...).


__________________
Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games

Sorry if I copied something more than once in this post; I was copy/pasting from several posts in one thread.

Here is the link to the beginning thread post:

Great Leader Post at CivFanatics

 

[Yndy]

Thanks kring.

I think this should close the debate here. Iread this thread but could't find it again when I wanted to.

 

[thefrenchzulu]

Nope it doesn't!

Looking at the straight odds as mentioned, how do they explain MA nearly always gets promoted on third win in a single attack! Considering the odds, thats rubbish. I nealy always gets promoted on second succesful attack and spits out a leader on the third succesful attack! Straight odds? Rubbish.

Anyone who has played with MA and use multiple attack per round knows this. So, there are other factors built in, not mentioned in the straight odd scenario.

I find and I get leaders!, that unit disprity makes a difference.

I don't know why, but it makes sense.

Do anyone get more leader playing on chieftain level, killing the poor AI spearmen with MA? Not even to mention the spearman's ability to withstand the attack!

Read somewhere, written by Firaxis, that they have build factors into battle to give the defending party behind in science, some form of chance to be able to defend. E.g. give them a extra defensive bonus!

You can turn that around and say that if you have unit equality, maybe only then the odds are 1/12 with the HE!!!

We can close the topic and as I've stated earlier, I will continue to enjoy the benefits of multiple early leaders

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by thefrenchzulu
Looking at the straight odds as mentioned, how do they explain MA nearly always gets promoted on third win in a single attack! Considering the odds, thats rubbish. I nealy always gets promoted on second succesful attack and spits out a leader on the third succesful attack! Straight odds? Rubbish.

Anyone who has played with MA and use multiple attack per round knows this. So, there are other factors built in, not mentioned in the straight odd scenario.

Kring didn't cut and paste another point that Mike B. made in that (or a similar) thread. Any unit that wins 2 battles in the same turn will be promoted. Winning 2 battles means destroying the opponent - a retreating opponent doesn't count as a win. Defenders that withstand 2 attacks in the same term will always be promoted, and attackers that destroy 2 defenders in the same turn will always be promoted (obviously only available with the advent of tanks and the blitz (multiple attack) ability).

It is often quite easy in the modern age to assure oneself of an all-elite MA force if the enemy is strong enough to mount offensive attacks -- a stack of enemy attackers enters your territory; you use artillery to significantly weaken the attackers; you use your rail network and the 3 move (3 attack) MA to kill 2 wounded attackers - voila! instant elite MA.

I myself have often used MA to attack syuccessfully three times in one turn - it is always promoted after the second attack, but success on the third attack does not ensure a leader, in fact, leader appearence seems to be about 1/12 or 1/16 - I believe that unit promotions and GL generation are entirely different functions and are not related in the code.

Read somewhere, written by Firaxis, that they have build factors into battle to give the defending party behind in science, some form of chance to be able to defend. E.g. give them a extra defensive bonus!

I'm pretty certain you're probably referring to the same Firaxis comments I have seen regarding the same subject - not wanting to let science (tech) deficient civs become instant prey for the more advanced weaponry of the tech leaders. But this comment had nothing to do with combat modifiers - it was an explanation as to why the ADM stats of ancient era and modern era units weren't radically different. Put another way, in response to angry complaints from those favoring "realism" over "gameplay" that a spearman can (but should never be able to in real life!!) defend against an attacking tank, the Firaxis team acknowledged that they consciously designed the game this way so that (1) a tech lead doesn't equal game over, and (2) the availability (or lack) of a particular strategic resource doesn't equal game over.

I still don't believe that unit disparity has any effect whatsoever on the chances of generating a GL, but everyone's entitled to their opinion (as long as it's not proclaimed as absolute fact )and the important thing is to have fun.

 

[bbaws]

I recently had a GL appear with an MA against a spearman. Before that I was always sending my elite units into chancy battles in the mistaken belief that a GL would only show in a challenging fight. Yet to have a game where the GL didn't appear but sometimes they appear very late.

 

[kring]

Catt, the reason I didn't copy/paste that comment is that it was referring to regular promotion, not GL creation, and the purpose of my copy/paste in the original first instance was dealing with GL creation since that seems to be a hot topic.

I created a mod/scenario where I had 4 stacks of 6 Warriors vs a large number of similar sized stacks of Warriors. The purpose of that mod was to test a theory about GL creation. I was able to get an average of 2 GL's from those combats. I would immediately disband it once generated since my goal was to determine if Warriors could create GL's. They can.

I hadn't considered, until Zigeuner pointed it out to me, that Artillery could create GL's if you enable Lethal Bombardment.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by kring
Catt, the reason I didn't copy/paste that comment is that it was referring to regular promotion, not GL creation, and the purpose of my copy/paste in the original first instance was dealing with GL creation since that seems to be a hot topic.

Yup - I know. There was just some confusion about promotions versus GL appearance probabilities, and while I've never heard anything from Firaxis, and acknowledging that I'm just relying on my own observations and limited testing, I think unit promotions and GL appearance are totally distinct functions. I suspected you might have left the promotion stuff out because you too felt them to be distinct issues.

Admirable job at pasting an awful lot of text by the way.

 

[Grey Knight]

Missing is "send in the elites any time they have a good chance to win" - since weak is a relative term. For example, my elite knights will take on 3-4 HP spearmen.

The real deal is fighting enough battles with elite units to "churn" enough and get the leader(s). You'll have better odds fighting 30 battles and winning 20 than fighting 10 easy battles and winning all 10.

The other issue is running out of "targets" for your elites. If you're not careful, you're non-elites could get "lucky" and win on you!

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[thefrenchzulu]

Originally posted by Catt


Yup - I know. There was just some confusion about promotions versus GL appearance probabilities, and while I've never heard anything from Firaxis, and acknowledging that I'm just relying on my own observations and limited testing, I think unit promotions and GL appearance are totally distinct functions. I suspected you might have left the promotion stuff out because you too felt them to be distinct issues.

Admirable job at pasting an awful lot of text by the way.

My limited testing have shown that there is a very close link between unit promotion and GL creating. Not a direct link, but a close one. I tested 20 swordsmen against one another. Some elite, some veteran. Attacking with the veteran first, there is a time where a veteran gets promoted. Reloading and attacking with an elite on the same round, resulted in leaders about 80% of the time. I can't explain why I don't have more leaders playing militaristic though

 

[kring]

There is no link.

The reason you get the results that you do is simple. The odds are higher for GL creation typically; so if you get a unit promotion number, then that number could be high enough for a GL creation.

non-militaristic civ vs. non-barbarians:
conscript to regular: 1 in 2
regular to veteran: 1 in 4
veteran to elite: 1 in 8

non-militaristic civ vs. barbarians:
conscript to regular: 1 in 4
regular to veteran: 1 in 8
veteran to elite: 1 in 16

militaristic civ vs. non-barbarians:
conscript to regular: 1 in 1
regular to veteran: 1 in 2
veteran to elite: 1 in 4

militaristic civ vs. barbarians:
conscript to regular: 1 in 2
regular to veteran: 1 in 4
veteran to elite: 1 in 8


__________________
Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=352717#post352717

VS.

Specifically:
----------
Odds with Heroic Epic = 1/12
Odds without Heroic Epic = 1/16
The odds are halved for defenders (1/24 and 1/32).

Mike B

 

[thefrenchzulu]

Originally posted by kring
There is no link.

The reason you get the results that you do is simple. The odds are higher for GL creation typically; so if you get a unit promotion number, then that number could be high enough for a GL creation.

Thanks, nice thread, especially the part about popping settlers and tech from goody huts.

Interesting that MBF ignored the question pertaining to unit disparity?

What do you mean with unit promotion number. Thought we are talking about probabilities. 1/16 and 1/8, the 1 remains the same!

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by thefrenchzulu


What do you mean with unit promotion number. Thought we are talking about probabilities. 1/16 and 1/8, the 1 remains the same!

I think kring was probably referring to how the Random Number Generator (RNG) works and how it applies to those events in the game which require an RNG result. Each call to the RNG produces a number, and the programmed odds of any given result are applied to the 1024 possibilities - which side of the "odds point" in the 1024 possible RNG values that particular RNG result falls on determines whether an event "occurs" ( asuccessful attack casuing a HP damage to the defender, or a unit promotion, for example).

The following is all an example - I am not saying that the Civ 3 RNG works in exactly this manner. Assume that the RNG used in Civ 3 will produce a series of random numbers between 0 and 1024. At the beginning of the turn, an RNG string may look like this: 566, 121, 12, 998, 712, 4, 335, etc.

Each call on the RNG, whether for a battle (each HP) or other random result (promotion / GL generation) pulls the next number from the RNG string to determine a result. Assume for a moment that a 50% chance needs to have an RNG result above 512 (midpoint of the RNG possibilities). A 25% chance would then need to have an RNG result above 768 (the 75% point of the RNG possibilities).

When you ran your tests with swordsman, in the case of the veteran swordsman winning, the RNG was called on to "see" if the victorius unit was due a promotion and used the 1 in 8 odds -- that particular call to the RNG returned the value "998" well above the "896" value necessary to satisfy the 1 in 8 chance. When you replayed the tests but this time used an elite to attack, the same RNG result of "998" is also sufficiently high to meet the 1 in 16 chance (above 960 needed) to determine whether a GL appears - the RNG call was to the same RNG result, but the question being asked different, i.e. it was whether to give a promotion or generate a GL.

Your tests did not necessarily prove that promotion / GL generation is related - it proved that the specific RNG value returned on that particular call to the RNG was sufficient to meet both a 1/16 and a 1/8 chance.