1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[NFP] Maya First Look

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, May 14, 2020.

  1. Mediocrity

    Mediocrity Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2018
    Messages:
    98
    Gender:
    Male
    Anywho, other than the reused animations (which I've gotten tired of complaining about by now) I really love the look of this new leader. Their abilities are fairly well-rounded and will likely be a nice thing to play around with.

    Also, their music sounds awesome. I'm gonna have to burn some more music discs once the soundtrack comes out so I can listen to it on the radio. :goodjob:
     
    Inawordyes, Guandao, Kjimmet and 4 others like this.
  2. Caprikel

    Caprikel Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    132
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    North Carolina, but secretly a Minnesotan
    Personally I kind of want their bonus and malus to be higher so that I'll really feel its effects in game without having to look at the city stats to see how much it effects things.
    I don't think they're necessarily a weak civ though, they do have a half price campus after all. However the fact that Korea exists, and will likely be a more powerful Science civ than the Maya while the Maya basically only really have a Science bonus other than their general bonuses, causes some concern. (It's a similar issue with Scotland as well)
    The problem is that if a person wants to go for a Science victory, Korea will objectively be the best choice maybe 90% of the time. This is mainly because Korea's Seowon just gives a flat high bonus just for existing, while also buffing hills around it to produce even more science. Meanwhile for Scotland and probably the Maya, you'll have to put in more effort and require more niche geography to get a similarly high science output.
    Basically I think Korea should be changed/nerfed in order to make these other Civs more practical (Buffing Tall/Nerfing Wide would actually help this since both Scotland and Maya have bonuses that encourage Tall play).
     
    Pitohui likes this.
  3. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,466
    Location:
    Not in a Civilization City Atleast
    The issue is the Maya is very luck based, like what if you capital is in a bad spot and only few of your cities get bonus, Island maps come to my mind, similar you can be unlucky with plantation. In comparison Korea don't have any luck element to it other than the normal ones.
     
    lotrmith likes this.
  4. Pitohui

    Pitohui Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2019
    Messages:
    51
    Gender:
    Male
    This would remove a lot of the restriction and make the civ more generic.I really do not see the benefit in this.
     
    King Rad likes this.
  5. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,466
    Location:
    Not in a Civilization City Atleast
    Yes but there are bigger fish to fry like Sumeria.
     
  6. Pitohui

    Pitohui Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2019
    Messages:
    51
    Gender:
    Male
    Korea>Sumeria imo.The only thing competing with Korea in OPness is Russia I would say
     
    agonistes likes this.
  7. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,466
    Location:
    Not in a Civilization City Atleast
    Korea don't have an overpowered early unique unit or overpowered early game, yes they do have unique campus but Sumeria have their ziggurats. I think Sumeria is stronger, if not alot stronger than either Russia or Korea due to its early game focus.
     
    lotrmith likes this.
  8. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,360
    I wonder if it's worthwhile to let the capital flounder a bit to the benefit of the inner ring getting the good tiles. This kind of goes against my instincts.
     
    Casworon likes this.
  9. ehecatzin

    ehecatzin Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,334
    This is one civ I'd like to try first before suggesting how to improve it. Who knows maybe once you go all in into going tall the Mayans could easily snowball out of control.
     
  10. Danthor

    Danthor Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    287
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Punta Arenas, Chile
    so Wac-Chanil-Ajau is called Lady "Six Sky" in Civilization??? Why??? WHYYY?!?!?
     
    Guandao and conorbebe like this.
  11. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,940
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    I mean, if you’re putting down farms and plantations, you won’t need that many tiles.

    But so many people seem to be missing the part about Lady RumplestiltSky creating gold from farms.

    If you actually make farms (if you’re in jungle, the underlying plains will be good for farming) you are gonna have a very nice income. I think maya was designed around the king difficulty experience where players do build quite a few farms.
     
  12. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,466
    Location:
    Not in a Civilization City Atleast
    A few gold from farms is probably not much when you can farm the ai out of their gold. If anything Maya should have the possibility to change their capital, if only once to reduce the luck factor.
     
  13. Arianrhod

    Arianrhod Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    218
    Gender:
    Male
    Honestly I could actually live with them being lazy with models in a vacuum, but it just makes the Persona packs look even worse.

    Like if we're already going for quantity over quality, why not go all the way and give Teddy a head replacement? I'm sure you could find someone who can speak English/French on short notice.
     
  14. KayAU

    KayAU King

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    775
    Well, well, well...this is clearly intended to be a civ for people like me: a limited number of highly developed cities, high science, mostly peaceful playstyle. It's been a while since I tried to analyze a new civ, but here it goes:

    Leader Ability - Ix Mutual Ajaw
    Cities within 6 tiles of the capital receive +10% to all yields. Other cities get -15% to all yields. The capital itself has normal output.
    +5 combat strength to units within 6 tiles of the capital.


    This is a very interesting ability, clearly aimed at a tall playstyle. 6 tiles is nice and generous, and will give you a maximum of 6 non-capital cities which can take advantage of the bonus with optimal placement (with only 12 overlapping tiles between all 7 cities). Of course, in practice, optimal placement is not realistic, and the Maya can of course still choose to have more cities. I do like this a lot, though, as I don't really want to manage more than 6-7 cities, and with the Maya, this is going to be much more viable than it used to be.
    The combat bonus is also good. It is clearly aimed at a defensive playstyle, and is going to be especially nice in the early game, to help withstand barbarian raids and early rushes.

    Overall, I think this is a good ability in terms of strength (especially on smaller maps), and a great one in terms of fitting my personal preferences.


    Civilization Ability - Mayab
    No extra housing from fresh water or coast. Farms provide an additional +1 housing (for a total 1.5) and +1 gold.
    +1 amenity for every luxury adjacent to the city center.


    Once again, this is really interesting. Even though it is not that hard to find fresh water, this is pretty darn good if you want large cities, and I think it interacts well enough with the Leader Ability, as it gives you more freedom in how you place your city centers. In terms of yields, comparing a fresh water city to a Mayan city: with two farms, the fresh water city is gets 6 housing (2 base + 3 fresh water +1 farms), as well as the regular food. The Mayan city gets 5 housing (2 base + 3 farms), as well as an additional +2 gold. I think this is roughly the break even point. With 3 farms, the Mayan city is clearly ahead with 6.5 housing (vs. 5.5), and +3 gold. The advantage will continue growing with more farms, and I can't really think of many situations where my cities will have less than 3 farms. Of course, this does mean you will need to get your farms going early.
    The extra amenity is a nice little synergy, and I particularly like that you will get an amenity just for being adjacent to the resource, no improvement needed.

    Very nice ability overall.


    Unique Unit - Hul'che
    Replaces the Archer. 28 base strength (vs 25 for the regular Archer). An additional +5 versus wounded opponents.

    I do wonder what the cost is going to be, but regardless, chances are this is going to be a top 10 UU at least. For one thing, it is an Archer replacement. Archers are already great, and you are going to build them anyway. I don't think this will quite match the amazing Pitati Archer, but the extra combat strength is going to be noticable, as it all adds up. Worst case scenario is +3 strength, but as soon as the target unit is wounded, that goes up to +8. Of course, the real horror happens when you try to invade the Mayans, and find that their Archers are hitting you with +13 strength, just 2 points below the power of a Crossbowman.

    This is another good one.


    Unique Infrastructure - Observatory
    Campus replacement. Reduced cost, major adjacency for plantations and the Pamukkale natural wonder, minor adjacency for farms and districts, regular adjacency for Government Plaza. No adjacency for mountains, reefs, fissures and rainforest.

    In terms of pure strength, this is probably the Mayan's greatest asset, just by being a half cost Campus. The natural comparison here is the Korea's Seowon. Is this equally good? Hard to tell for sure. The Seowon has a maximum adjacency of +4, and an average adjacency not far below that. Placement can be a bit awkward, as you will be trying to avoid touching other districts, but overall the Seowon is incredibly consistent, and very, very good. The Observatory, I think, is going to be a close rival. I think the average adjacency will end up in a similar area, possibly a bit lower. The missing adjacencies for mountains is going to limit its potential a bit, especially in the early game, but as long as you have a plantation or two, getting your Observatories to 3-5 should not be too hard.

    I do think the Seowon is a bit better, but being a slightly worse version of the best Unique District in the game is still pretty darn good. I also think I like the adjacency rules for this one better. It requires a bit of planning, but it is not going to be too hard to make it work.


    Final verdict
    Gathering Storm did have some great and unique civ designs, and it looks like they are continuing that trend. Tall is still underpowered in Civ 6, but with the Mayans, it becomes a great deal more viable. All of the Mayan uniques are at the very least pretty good, and there are some clever synergies between them. They have their own versions of the best Unique District and the best Unique Unit in the game, and while the Mayan versions are probably a bit less powerful, they are still great, and it's the same civ having both of them.

    I'm looking forward to this one. Will it replace the Inca as my favorite civ?
     
  15. Caprikel

    Caprikel Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    132
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    North Carolina, but secretly a Minnesotan
    My main problem with Korea isn't exactly their power, but the fact that they're so powerful with little effort, and with almost any start they get. There isn't any thinking going on with a Seowon, it's just put it down next to hills, if no hills just put it down anyway because you still get the yield equivalent of 4 mountains which would normally be hard to get.
    The Maya and Scotland are Science civs done well, where they need proper prep work to get their science bonuses. Korea on the other hand is just Unga Bunga tier in comparison.
    I'd rather Korea's Seowon be reworked rather than have a straight up nerf to the value it gets, since then they could actually design it into a civ that I would actually be interested in playing.
    Maya on the other hand looks like much more fun to play, but I just don't like the fact that there is a civ out there that would still likely manage to do a better job producing science even if I started in the perfect location for the Maya.
     
  16. Navelgazer

    Navelgazer King

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    641
    Gender:
    Male
    I can't keep up with this thread (unsurprisingly) and I first checked in out it a couple minutes after the First Look posted. But my thoughts so far:

    MAYAB: Deeply interesting, and will probably take some getting used to. Popping city centers around luxuries and potential farmlands instead of rivers and lakes. You'll probably want at least one port town, but not being beholden to a delta for its placement will be nice, at least. Makes a unique, and potentially difficult, start (not unlike Mali or Moai) but the gold bonus is nice, and for certain Maya will be one of the prettiest Civs out there for all of the development.

    IX MUTAL AJAW: Also deeply interesting, and fits my preferred play-style, but will also take some getting used to. I think realistically your number of cities will cap out at 7 or 8 powerhouses, considering how the Maya want farmland. I picture a definite Governor Game here, even moreso than with most civs. These will be specialty cities, is my guess. Weirdly, I picture this LUA making the geography more of an enemy to the Civ than is the case for really any other, which makes for a fun puzzle, but is going to make a lot of maps (especially TSL maps!) very tricky for Lady Six Sky. One thing I'm unsure of: City Yields get a bonus within 6 tiles of the capital and malus outside of that ring. Units get a bonus within that ring... do they get a Malus outside of it? Also, I've seen it mentioned here how good the Ancestral Hall will be for Maya, but this will take some experimentation. I can see the Magnus/Faith/Monumentailty opener working well, and the Audience Chamber synergizing well (finally!) with a true tall empire.

    HUL'CHE: Looks really, really good. You'll want them ASAP which brings up the question of the tech tree optimization. Farms just require workers, but Irrigation, Archery and Writing are all second-level down different trees and all very important for Maya to get to early to turn around their tough start. Nothing stated that I can see about their cost, but generally I think these First Looks mention if UUs are more or less expensive than the unit they replace, so I assume they are standard archer-cost.

    OBSERVATORY: I'm in the camp that comparing this to the Seowon is both the obvious thing to do and not particularly helpful. It's a half-priced Campus that grants 4 era score and can be pumped up to great levels in keeping with the rest of the Mayan strategy. That's a good Unique District any way you slice it. Another Unique Theatre Square replacement wouldn't have the same flat-bonus as the Acropolis, but would still be very worthwhile in a civ that synergized well with it. As Unique Districts go, the Observatory might not be the Seowon or Lavra, but it's up there.

    LADY SIX SKY: I'm a fan of the design, and I think they've gotten good at creating historical realism within the caricatured style. Really really glad they went with this pick.

    OVERALL: Looks super intriguing and I'm definitely going to be playing them a week from now (unless Gran Colombia supercedes them in priority, of course!) but my biggest concern isn't about the relative strengths or weaknesses. It's about Maya potentially being a slog to play from the Medieval Era onwards. This seems potentially like a "Set-it-and-forget-it" civ design if I've ever seen one, and I'm hoping to be proven wrong there.
     
    qadams likes this.
  17. Republic of San Montuoso

    Republic of San Montuoso Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    432
    Gender:
    Male
    I completely approve. Korea is for science what Pericles is for culture: just flat bonuses. And flat bonuses are utmost boring. It's even worse for Korea. Any other civ, if you want to do science, you have to look for mountains, jungles, reefs, geothermal sources... Korea? Just put it anywhere far from district and boom, +4 adjacency. Mines around also have +1 science. Where is the fun? Where is the uniqueness?
    Other scientific civilizations have something for them:
    1. Arabia: you expand your science by your religion. Non conformist method, kind of counter intuitive, by blend nicely with the mechanics.
    2. Macedon: gaining Eurekas by conquest is a nice idea (same as Civ5 Assyria). It allows the player to get ahead in science through conquest, which is a fun twist to warmongering players.
    3. Scotland: by far my favourite science civilization. Here you don't have just bonuses, you have to earn it, through happiness. You don't focus on how you place your campuses but more on where you place your EC. I easily beat all my human adversaries with Scotland with 7 cities in range of the Colosseum. It was beautiful, perfect, wonderful...
    And then you have Korea. Spam your campuses, take your governors, spam some mines and you're done. It's a no-brainer. It's easy strategy. Sumeria is kind of the same (just spam ziggurat and swim in the nice science) but at least his ziggurats take place for other improvements or districts and you sometimes have a choice to make. Korea? Never.

    I want fun in my mechanics! And there so much way to make it so! Look at the Mayans, where the way you create science is much more different than before (and not just like Korea, where it's easier; with Mayans it would require more planning). Or find something else! We have so much mechanics in Civilization VI that we could tie it to anything, better than a simple flat bonuses. Think for Korea, for exemple: since it is linked to governors, why not making that each time a governor is promoted, you gain a random eureka and inspiration? Would be more fun and play better with the mechanics than the random "gain +3% per level per governor". Or make a civ gain science each time a disaster occured! Could we have a civ that you gain science for flooded tiles? So much possibilities and still we are stucks with overpowered Korea.
     
    Meluhhan, Caprikel and Navelgazer like this.
  18. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Messages:
    919
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    The benefit would be that you would at least get a little leeway in making strategic decisions as to where you'd plump down the OTHER cities... right now, there's not going to be any because you'll want to plump down your capital in the first 1-3 turns, so you'll have no possible way to make the most of your cities because you wont have scouted the surroundings yet... and I mean ANY cities ;-(
     
  19. Mediocrity

    Mediocrity Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2018
    Messages:
    98
    Gender:
    Male
    I actually just remembered something fairly interesting that had happened to me several months ago.

    Last autumn, I had a World History class. My teacher was a "feminist" apparently, so I decided to show off my knowledge of female rulers in order to impress her and try and get good grades. She talked so much about women in history that I could eventually guess who she was about to talk about. Somehow, I got away with interjecting (she must have been impressed or something). Anywho, one day, she was about to tell us about a Mayan ruler and I just strait-up asked if she was going to talk about Lady Six Sky. I was right.

    I just wanted to tell that story because it felt somewhat relevant right now.

    Maybe I'm an arrogant dirtbag for interrupting the teacher but it worked out in the end :mischief:
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
    borad, Inawordyes, Guandao and 6 others like this.
  20. Wielki Hegemon

    Wielki Hegemon King

    Joined:
    May 27, 2013
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    Warsaw
    So true :) You have nailed it. So much reward for so little effort.
     
    Caprikel, DWilson and Mediocrity like this.

Share This Page