[NFP] Maya First Look

[bengalryan9]

With the way Observatory adjacency works, it's going to be rare to get more than +4 on a consistent basis. And even that's probably the best case scenario.

I think they should adjust their starting bias towards luxuries with plantations only. Right now, how good of a Maya game you'll have depends on what kind of luxuries you roll on your continent. If you roll (like me) stuff like mercury and jade, then you'll struggle to get good observatories, whereas if you roll sugar and silk and cocoa, you're going to have a good time.

This is the one change I would probably make. They are already map dependent enough, I think throwing them a plantation bias instead of just a luxury bias wouldn't hurt (or change the observatory so any luxury gives the bonus and not just plantations).

 

[GrumboMumbo]

I think all the Observatory vs Seowon talk is really pointless. The Observatory is not where Maya struggle. Maya struggle because of an early housing deficit, and the need to waste production/builder charges just to maintain pace. Where is your production for settlers coming from?? Oh wait, you don't have any production, because you had to make tons of farms.

Production is king in civ6. If food and population was as important as they were in civ 5, then yes Maya would be a decent civ. But that is not how civ6 plays out unfortunately.

 

[kb27787]

I think all the Observatory vs Seowon talk is really pointless. The Observatory is not where Maya struggle. Maya struggle because of an early housing deficit, and the need to waste production/builder charges just to maintain pace. Where is your production for settlers coming from?? Oh wait, you don't have any production, because you had to make tons of farms.

Production is king in civ6. If food and population was as important as they were in civ 5, then yes Maya would be a decent civ. But that is not how civ6 plays out unfortunately.

If they had entirely removed food from hills (as it was back in BNW every hill regardless of terrain was 2 production) then yes massed farms would have the ascendancy.

Maya's glaring production weakness becomes all too apparent when the game progresses and you want to start laying down your later districts... if you had accelerated your science you are now left with 50+ turns to build a district because of rising costs. They just don't have enough to do anything... hard-build pyras? Good luck when your first builder charges are wasted on farms! Hence, if you want anything you need to chop. Guess what happens when you chop all the woods from your flatland start (no more lumber mills) you are left with 30+ turns to build a single research lab, that's what! You also don't get that much gold from your stupid farms either... the gold is mostly spent buying tiles for chop as they have zero bonuses to culture (can you afford time to build theatre squares? what's with the industrial zones, and commercial hubs, and whatnot). Playing them is like trying to stretch a pea-sized ball of butter over a whole loaf of bread, just awkward with no flow whatsoever, and this problem is not going to go away even if they had buffed the observatory (my suggestion if they want to do it, give farms standard instead of minor adjacency as farms already suck so bad anyway).

If the "six" in her name is the reason why they've set the 10% bonus radius to 6 tiles, I would change her leader ability to something better and still thematic... (for example, your first 6 cities gain +6 housing).

 

[KayAU]

The Maya don't have to make "tons" of farms. 2 farms will get you the same housing as a city with fresh water. All other sources of housing are as for other civs, and in some ways, better than for other civs: Aqueducts always yield +6 housing, and additional farms yield you that nice 1,5 housing. Beyond the initial two, you could argue that the Maya "need" fewer farms than other civs, it is just that they have been given a couple of incentives to build them.

I agree that the initial need to get out a builder adds some challenge to the early game, although it becomes a minor issue once you have established your first couple of cities. I think what you are supposed to do is evaluate your city positions differently. Prioritize having high-production tiles in your inner ring, and make sure you work them before high food tiles once you approach your food cap. Water doesn't do much for you, so you are free to move away from it, although you want to think about potential Aqueduct placement. Once you have a Builder out, you don't have any housing issues anymore.

 

[GrumboMumbo]

The Maya don't have to make "tons" of farms.

I get that, I was being hyperbolic. I'm mainly talking about those early turns, where things count the most. I think it puts them at quite a disadvantage, something which the positives don't make up for.

Don't get me wrong, I love the direction they took them, leading the player to play differently. If I were to balance this civ though (and keep the uniqueness of not wanting fresh water) I would have instead given all their cities a +2 housing bonus regardless of where the city is settled (not quite fresh water but better than coast) and I would have reduced the farm housing to 1 instead of 1.5.

 

[Cerilis]

I must say, I quite like the Maya... even though i messed up the distance for my third city and in the end only had space for 3 cities inside the ring anyway because of coastlines (and mess-up). ^^"

 

[lotrmith]

Prioritize having high-production tiles in your inner ring, and make sure you work them before high food tiles once you approach your food cap. Water doesn't do much for you, so you are free to move away from it, although you want to think about potential Aqueduct placement. Once you have a Builder out, you don't have any housing issues anymore.

That's just it though... if you settle and work a high production (low food) tile, that's gonna be the only tile you are able to work for who knows how long... a new Maya city is automatically at a growth penalty for housing. So you need a builder to plop down a farm to get rid of that penalty. Okay, you're still working a 1-food tile.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

With the way Observatory adjacency works, it's going to be rare to get more than +4 on a consistent basis. And even that's probably the best case scenario.

Adjacency is likely going to be terrible early on (either +1 or +2), but will scale into the lategame, not unlike Japan (whose adjacency is mediocre early but great when you get triangle/diamonds rolling). Shouldn't be rare to have a +4 lategame just from farms.

 

[bengalryan9]

Shouldn't be rare to have a +4 lategame just from farms.

There are only six tiles around an observatory, and farms only give .5 adjacency...

 

[yung.carl.jung]

There are only six tiles around an observatory, and farms only give .5 adjacency...

Sorry, I missspoke. what I actually meant is an average of +4, from multiple Plantations, Farms, etc. not exactly +4 for every HS, which is as you say literally impossible with just farms.

OTOH, when you settle like 10-15 cities it's close to impossible to not have Plantations. Even if just every second city of yours has a Plantation roughly, you can get an avg of +3 Campi per city probably.

Do Observatories also get district adjacency? Would make them even better on avg.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'm working on a sample size of one but am not finding any of these "glaring"issues that others are. Saying the observatory is no good because it doesn't adjacency with mountains is nonsensical to me.

 

[UWHabs]

Keep in mind, +3 is really the magical number so that rationalism kicks in, and I think the Maya are positioned to hit that +3 easier than an average civ otherwise. Korea can obviously get that, but also only if they isolate their campuses, which means you need to space out your cities and keep those districts on the edge.

The Maya need to spend more builder charges than other civs to make up for their bonuses, but also keep in mind that they don't actually have to work those farm tiles to get the housing. Basically, you just need to budget 2 farms per city to get back to "full" housing, but once you have them down, you can go back to working other files.

I do agree that they could use a slightly bigger advantage to farms. Or perhaps have them add in a bonus like having observatories give +1 production per farm in the city, would help them get going a little faster too rather than a mostly forgettable +1 gold per farm. And definitely agree that their start bias should be just plantations - everyone starts near luxuries, so giving them that feels like it's just setting you up for failure.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Keep in mind, +3 is really the magical number so that rationalism kicks in, and I think the Maya are positioned to hit that +3 easier than an average civ otherwise.

I think the observatory was designed around this card almost. The other half of the card, 10 pop, is very easy to hit. They weren't designed to get sexy super high adjacent campuses like Australia can get, but consistent, cheap campuses that can take advantage of the rationalism card. It takes some planning, but I so far haven't had a problem having every campus utilize this card correctly.

 

[bengalryan9]

Sorry, I missspoke. what I actually meant is an average of +4, from multiple Plantations, Farms, etc. not exactly +4 for every HS, which is as you say literally impossible with just farms.

OTOH, when you settle like 10-15 cities it's close to impossible to not have Plantations. Even if just every second city of yours has a Plantation roughly, you can get an avg of +3 Campi per city probably.

Do Observatories also get district adjacency? Would make them even better on avg.

I just finished my Maya game. I settled 10 cities and had 4 plantations total. I had plenty of gypsum, though...

I would say that yeah, I probably did average at least +3 with my campuses, but had the map generator been kinder to me I could have got that much higher with a lot less work.

 

[PhilBowles]

The Maya don't have to make "tons" of farms. 2 farms will get you the same housing as a city with fresh water. All other sources of housing are as for other civs, and in some ways, better than for other civs: Aqueducts always yield +6 housing, and additional farms yield you that nice 1,5 housing. Beyond the initial two, you could argue that the Maya "need" fewer farms than other civs, it is just that they have been given a couple of incentives to build them.

I agree that the initial need to get out a builder adds some challenge to the early game, although it becomes a minor issue once you have established your first couple of cities. I think what you are supposed to do is evaluate your city positions differently. Prioritize having high-production tiles in your inner ring, and make sure you work them before high food tiles once you approach your food cap. Water doesn't do much for you, so you are free to move away from it, although you want to think about potential Aqueduct placement. Once you have a Builder out, you don't have any housing issues anymore.

You're underrating the importance of timing. Health is most important early in the game - the fact that you don't have it from the start slows the production of the builder you need to obtain it because you'll get your second pop more slowly, it slows your science output, your ability to go for settlers, and hitting the magical pop 4 for a second district.

It's much the same point others are making with the observatory vs. campus/seowon - adjacency bonuses don't matter that much because later in the game most of your science comes from buildings - if you can hit +3 for Rationalism it's ideal, but anything beyond that is valuable only because it's an early boost.

I would say that yeah, I probably did average at least +3 with my campuses, but had the map generator been kinder to me I could have got that much higher with a lot less work.

Being largely independent of map constraints is the point - the sorts of campuses people are talking about with +3 or more in every available city spot simply don't happen without good luck. I got a bad start as far as plantations are concerned, but I'm free to get much more use out of district adjacency than civs that want multiple mountains, or jungle tiles they don't want to remove. That benefits the campus but also benefits the other districts since you have more freedom to place the remaining districts where they get maximum adjacency while still buffing the observatory - instead of having a campus perhaps with a Holy Site and Government Plaza but everything else somewhere else.

 

[Casualty of war]

Well, that set-up I posted earlier turned into a sub-Turn 300, no war, love fest Science victory, and could have been an even earlier Diplomatic Victory. Deity Continents (that turned out to be connected by a land bridge), Standard size. Like I mentioned there I need to push for Coliseum sooner because my Culture cost me. I hit Tier 3 governments too late, Globalization too late, finished before I hit Tier 4 governments. I launched my space mission and then took FOREVER to get to where I could push its speed with Laser Stations. Both the Science City-States, Bologna and Teruga, were on the other wing of the continent and didn't come into play until late also, so bad scouting on my part. I did run the game out of Great Scientists, so that was new.

I posted that pic so you could see what you can do with Observatory adjacency, as I had 4 around a Government Center and then as many Plantations and Farms as I could get around that. 3 +5 and a +4 Observatory is not too bad. When you get to the Heartbeat of Steam, adjacency bonuses pay off in ways a Saewon won't.

Maya loves itself some Aqueducts! And if you're building Aqueducts, you might as well stick an Industrial Zone with it. Ooooo, a nice spot for a Dam or a Canal? Yes, please. Solve that Housing problem and then maximize the side benefits of the solution. You're probably going to be a bit Hammer-poor until you get that IZ down but afterwards, holy smokes.

If you push your perimeter cities out a bit, you can get more than 6 in the capital-benefits radius. I got 7 + my cap, could have easily done 8. Somebody gets left out of Coliseum coverage then, but you can just put some Happiness attention there. Uxmal got left out

If you're going for a religious-economy game, I think River Goddess might be a better pantheon choice than just about any other including Religious Settlements for Maya. I missed Religious Settlements myself in this game and took Goddess of the Hunt for some Hammers. Plop those Granary Holy Sites down and let them go because, wow, do you hit 2 pop in your cities quickly!

Spoiler :

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Can someone explain how Maya works again?
Are you supposed to grow past 10 pop with this Civ??
Is that correct?

 

[KayAU]

Do Observatories also get district adjacency? Would make them even better on avg.

They do. Note that you can't mix freely, though, as I discovered in my rather amazing Maya game. You can't have 1 farm and 1 district to get +1, you need to have a pair of farms or a pair of districts.

It is possible that I am overestimating the Maya bit because:
a) I had a really strong first game with them, where I got a jungle start with high yield tiles and plantation luxuries aplenty, and
b) I just really like their design and the promise of a tall civ
I initially thought they had a start bias towards plantation luxuries, but after doing some more map rolls, I see that might not be true. That's one thing I would really like to change about them.

I will say this, though: while the farm/housing/Observatory features are the most heavily discussed, I do think their combat bonus/stronger Archer combo is noteworthy. I just started a new game with a less charmed start, where I was quickly attacked by Kristina, who had a much larger army than me. The bonus let me survive until I was able to upgrade my Slingers to Hul'che, and at that point, her defeat was guaranteed. To the west Mansa Musa holds significant forces, and is competing for the same land as me. We are friends now, but who knows if it will last? It is fortunate that the Maya is so strong defensively.

 

[Kwami]

They do. Note that you can't mix freely, though, as I discovered in my rather amazing Maya game. You can't have 1 farm and 1 district to get +1, you need to have a pair of farms or a pair of districts.

That's true of all minor adjacencies in the game.

I initially thought they had a start bias towards plantation luxuries, but after doing some more map rolls, I see that might not be true. That's one thing I would really like to change about them.

They have a tier 2 bias for mining and plantation luxury resources and a tier 1 bias for plains and grassland.

 

[Thormodr]

Had lots of fun with my first Maya game. I won a science victory.

I settled 8 cities and they all were in the Capital zone. I didn’t bother to settle any other cities.

Paititi was just to the south of me, just above Preslav. I ended up with most of the adjacent tiles. +7 gold from a farm? Yes, please!

Sahara el Beyda that is +4 gold, +1 science and +1 culture was west of my capital. I built a city there, built Petra and ended up with 6 gold tiles.

There were 8 Civs and everyone ended up with a decent sized empire with no eliminations.

My biggest city had 28 population. Every other city was 20+ except for the capital that was at 19 population but 6 turns away from reaching 20.

Oh and I built a national park over Sahara el Beyda and it actually named it Sahara el Beyda National Park rather than El Mirador National Park. That’s a nice touch.