[NFP] Maya First Look

[steveg700]

I think +3 Amenities per luxury might improve the game. You'd still be able to be expansionist, but you'd be required to prioritise entertainment complexes, which are pretty underwhelming atm unless you're playing with sparse resources.

So in your example above, the need for EC would slow down your construction of campuses.

It would still be nowhere near as restrictive as happiness in Civ 5 since nothing stops you from successfully expanding, but there should be better opportunity costs.

Edit: Another approach is to increase the yield bonus in Ecstatic cities.

Even if luxes were nerfed in this fashion, I don't think it would make sense to prioritize building an entertainment complex to avoid a -5% unhappiness penalty on yields in lieu of building the districts that will generate those yields. Build the campus first, and later maybe patch with an EC.

And in nerfing luxuries, the map is even further nerfed. If a player hunts down luxuries to get amenities, the that's some kind of strategic approach to expansion. If the expansion meta is all about districts, not the map, might as well spam. What is needed is to both increase the impact of happy/unhappy, and have the unhappiness be impacted an expansion factor, like distance from the capital or number of cities relative to some development metric (which Civ VI isn't big on providing).

But of course, we should know from the very comments of Dennis Shirk and the rest of the dev team that this kind of talk amounts to swimming against the current. Civ VI is not about careful planning and measured moves. It is chiefly about the "whee" factor of constant growth and unchecked snowballing. The loyalty system is a standout, and while not's heavily influenced by amenities it's sufficiently influenced by them that when I go colonizing, I do look to settle or capture based on access to new luxes.

 

[bite]

I think her leader ability works really well for her

 

[Bug Repellent]

I've made some analysis of Maya and ready to share my conclusions.

I agree with your analysis. I played a few dozen turns of a handful of games settling off-water on purpose to see how Maya will be. It ain't that bad but you do have to get a builder early so having good tiles to work early is critical.

Korea is better at science, but Maya is nearly as good while significantly easier to defend early on. If you look at the official reveal video, at 1:35 min in you get to see 4 of her cities. Every single one of them has a +4 observatory, with further improvements possible. Tonina can get to +6, the cap is at +4 already, Yaxchlan is +4 and Xunantunich is +4 but it can get to +5. Maya will be a solid civ. If you play her going for a SV, she's definitely tier A. Also at 1:35min in, you can see the housing limit for Yaxchlan: 11. This means the aqueduct works best for Maya, increasing the base housing from 2 to 6. So they're pretty much a must for Maya, but it will make their cities really tall and densely packed so loyalty won't be an issues for her even in a dark age. She'll be such an annoying AI neighbor though. If they make her aggressive with her UU... watch out.

 

[Uberfrog]

I want to believe that will be true but 100% do not. She will forward settle and then start denouncing you, in grand, insane, CIV VI AI fashion.

You misunderstand: she’s allowed to forward settle you... you just can’t come near her!

To be honest the AI would deduce that my agenda was the same...

 

[bite]

So you would think that an Ancestral Hall would be a must for the Maya

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

So you would think that an Ancestral Hall would be a must for the Maya

Short term, probably, to be sure to have a builder right away to farm your lands.
But on the long run, I'm not sure. Since you likely won't have more than 6 ring cities around your capital (7 cities in total), you have one city per governor, and the audience chamber give +1 amenity and +3 housing in cities with a governor. Since housing will be kind of difficult to have (you'll need farms and maybe you won't be able to do as much as you want) having +3 housing in each city would be a net bonus.

My take would be Audience Chamber. After all, if you build lot of farms in your capital, you'll have more gold. My strategy would be: when settling a city, just save the money to buy a builder right away when it's founded.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Short term, probably, to be sure to have a builder right away to farm your lands.
But on the long run, I'm not sure. Since you likely won't have more than 6 ring cities around your capital (7 cities in total), you have one city per governor, and the audience chamber give +1 amenity and +3 housing in cities with a governor. Since housing will be kind of difficult to have (you'll need farms and maybe you won't be able to do as much as you want) having +3 housing in each city would be a net bonus.

My take would be Audience Chamber. After all, if you build lot of farms in your capital, you'll have more gold. My strategy would be: when settling a city, just save the money to buy a builder right away when it's founded.

For me, it will depend on whether or not I want to be a taller, insular Maya (in which case the Audience Chamber will be amazing), or still a more expansionist Maya with a strong hub of cities and then weaker satellites (in which case, those extra builders will get the city online quicker).

The Maya miss out on the settling on river bonus but two builder charges will put them net ahead in housing, and the half price observatory plus plantation scouting makes a good case for settling more cities even with the malus. Maybe? We will find out!

 

[Uberfrog]

I am enjoying reading the discussion over play styles and how powerful or not the Maya will be.

I don’t need or want the new civs to be “powerful” (Lord knows we don’t need another overpowered science snowball civ)... I want them to have potential for interesting gameplay strategies, which it seems like they do.

 

[KayAU]

My take would be Audience Chamber. After all, if you build lot of farms in your capital, you'll have more gold. My strategy would be: when settling a city, just save the money to buy a builder right away when it's founded.

I will take the Audience Chamber as a matter of principle. The Mayan civ seems to be clearly intended as "the tall civ", and I will fully embrace that.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I am enjoying reading the discussion over play styles and how powerful or not the Maya will be.

I don’t need or want the new civs to be “powerful” (Lord knows we don’t need another overpowered science snowball civ)... I want them to have potential for interesting gameplay strategies, which it seems like they do.

This 100%!

Civs are more than the sum of their parts. Georgia is a great example because it has a few... wonky mechanics (that have improved as the game modified around them), but they also have the novelty of inclusion, fantastic music and a fierce, stoic queen as a leader.

Plus, if you are the kind of player who *needs* to win Deity in under X turns, or needs to win their multiplayer match in Science - you are going to play Korea no matter what.

 

[AntSou]

I will take the Audience Chamber as a matter of principle. The Mayan civ seems to clearly intended as "the tall civ", and I will fully embrace that.

Synergises well with Reyna and Pingala as well, but you'll still want Magnus for the Tier 1 bonuses, so Audience Chamber seems like a good option.

 

[kotpeter]

I'd take Ancestral Hall over Audience chamber for a couple of reasons:

1) For Maya, one builder provides better yields than Audience chamber (4.5 housing vs 3 from chamber; plus extra food and gold and possibly more yields if you have more charges); amenity can be compensated by other means and is usually not an issue overall.

2) "Free" builder from ancestral hall means that you don't have to spend extra production, gold or faith on it and free builders don't increase cost of subsequently trained builders.

3) You are free to promote your governors the way you want (Audience Chamber requires a governor in every city).

4) +50% settler production saves a lot of tempo in some cases.

 

[Krajzen]

I just want to break against the dominant opinion and express my slight disappointement with this Maya design.


Civ5 Maya design was one of the most interesting in the game. Tying usually purely flavour calendar dates with bonus great people was so creative (and it required rush to Theology sobit wasn't mindless), while Pyramids really opened new playstyle. Even Atlatl, one of the weakest unique units in the game, was unique by being instant no tech archer. Also, Pacal with with background was an incredible leader screen. An altogether Mayas were one of stronger civs in the game.


I have never understood why every single new civ announced for civ6 disables everybody's minds and makes them praise it like a new superpower. Yes I am enthusiastic about new civs too and it's great we get Maya, but come on, a little dry criticism is a spice for the game. I remember how back when Georgia and Canada were announced I thought to myself immediately 'well those bonuses sound like garbage lol' while everyone was losing their minds and guess what, there were patched like half a dozen times.

Returning to Maya, what do we get here:
1) Ethiopia 2.0 boring ability "settle few cities close for meager bonus to avoid meager penalty/lack of bonus". Also I honestly consider this one of the worst traits in the game, considering how the penalty is worse than bonus, it potentially applies to MUCH MORE cities, and bonus doesn't even cover capital lol. On average map average civ can have like 10-20 cities. Well Maya get +10% bonus to like 4-5 of them and -15% penalty to rest of them. Truly excellent tradeoff!
And don't start with this +5 combat near capital, Teddy does it for entire continent.
2) Javelin unit once again (honestly if Mayans had no other recognizable military unit I'd prefer if they got some non combat unit but at least more interesting), with the most basic, generic bonus ever (civ5 Cossack hello)
3) Building and ability combo which are almost identical to Korea in concept: special campus with bonus in specific puzzle placement with stronger farms and plantations/mines.

So, to sum up, what we get is civ5 Ethiopia, civ5 Atlatl/Cossack, and civ6 Korea 2.0. Also I'm gonna bet my liver it will be bottom tier of civs. Honestly it really feels to me like this is fanservice similar to Tamar/Canada, with devs adding the civ without particular inspiration how to design it but because fan popular memes (Lady Six Sky).

Fortunately I have trust in devs that this is Canada of Frontier Pass and next civs will be as brilliant as most of GS designs

EDIT
I forgot to mention that cool fresh water trait is partially wasted if you are not going to found many cities across the map with it lol

 

[Lord Lakely]

If the "Solitary" agenda is coded correctly, it should only trigger if you are the one to settle the city. Perhaps it should also contain code she can't settle cities further than 4 tiles away from her closest one, just to be safe...x

Honestly, I'm not to annoyed with this. It's basically the same as Chandra's agenda, just with an anti-forward settling mechanic. You can still befriend her if you delegate her on sight.

 

[bite]

Overall my general impressions of The Maya are that I quite like this civ, but I don't think it is going to gel with my play style, but I would like to meet it as an AI

 

[IvoryPavane]

I just want to break against the dominant opinion and express my slight disappointement with this Maya design.


Civ5 Maya design was one of the most interesting in the game. Tying usually purely flavour calendar dates with bonus great people was so creative (and it required rush to Theology sobit wasn't mindless), while Pyramids really opened new playstyle. Even Atlatl, one of the weakest unique units in the game, was unique by being instant no tech archer. Also, Pacal with with background was an incredible leader screen. An altogether Mayas were one of stronger civs in the game.


I have never understood why every single new civ announced for civ6 disables everybody's minds and makes them praise it like a new superpower. Yes I am enthusiastic about new civs too and it's great we get Maya, but come on, a little dry criticism is a spice for the game. I remember how back when Georgia and Canada were announced I thought to myself immediately 'well those bonuses sound like garbage lol' while everyone was losing their minds and guess what, there were patched like half a dozen times.

Returning to Maya, what do we get here:
1) Ethiopia 2.0 boring ability "settle few cities close for meager bonus to avoid meager penalty/lack of bonus". Also I honestly consider this one of the worst traits in the game, considering how the penalty is worse than bonus, it potentially applies to MUCH MORE cities, and bonus doesn't even cover capital lol. On average map average civ can have like 10-20 cities. Well Maya get +10% bonus to like 4-5 of them and -15% penalty to rest of them. Truly excellent tradeoff!
And don't start with this +5 combat near capital, Teddy does it for entire continent.
2) Javelin unit once again (honestly if Mayans had no other recognizable military unit I'd prefer if they got some non combat unit but at least more interesting), with the most basic, generic bonus ever (civ5 Cossack hello)
3) Building and ability combo which are almost identical to Korea in concept: special campus with bonus in specific puzzle placement with stronger farms and plantations/mines.

So, to sum up, what we get is civ5 Ethiopia, civ5 Atlatl/Cossack, and civ6 Korea 2.0. Also I'm gonna bet my liver it will be bottom tier of civs. Honestly it really feels to me like this is fanservice similar to Tamar/Canada, with devs adding the civ without particular inspiration how to design it but because fan popular memes (Lady Six Sky).

Fortunately I have trust in devs that this is Canada of Frontier Pass and next civs will be as brilliant as most of GS designs

EDIT
I forgot to mention that cool fresh water trait is partially wasted if you are not going to found many cities across the map with it lol

I think there is a lot of enthusiasm due to this being the first Civ after a long drought of news, and I also think there is a lot of goodwill because it isn’t just another “doomsday” prophets version of the Maya, which many weren’t keen on seeing.

Also, we should all be mindful that our opinions on the Civ designs are *entirely* subjective, so people liking the design aren’t Just following some hive mind just as people who think they are going against the grain of popular opinion aren’t automatically correct either.

The relative “power” of Civ still has some subjective quality to it, but it’s easier to stack mechanics against each other and make a call.

No matter what though, if you think a Civ with a half price campus with solid yields and a UU archer replacement with built in Tomyris is going to be in the bottom “tier“... I think you are going to owe some people a liver hahaha!

 

[Bug Repellent]

I just want to break against the dominant opinion and express my slight disappointement with this Maya design.

Returning to Maya, what do we get here:
1) Ethiopia 2.0 boring ability "settle few cities close for meager bonus to avoid meager penalty/lack of bonus". Also I honestly consider this one of the worst traits in the game, considering how the penalty is worse than bonus, it potentially applies to MUCH MORE cities, and bonus doesn't even cover capital lol. On average map average civ can have like 10-20 cities. Well Maya get +10% bonus to like 4-5 of them and -15% penalty to rest of them. Truly excellent tradeoff!
And don't start with this +5 combat near capital, Teddy does it for entire continent.
2) Javelin unit once again (honestly if Mayans had no other recognizable military unit I'd prefer if they got some non combat unit but at least more interesting), with the most basic, generic bonus ever (civ5 Cossack hello)
3) Building and ability combo which are almost identical to Korea in concept: special campus with bonus in specific puzzle placement with stronger farms and plantations/mines.

So, to sum up, what we get is civ5 Ethiopia, civ5 Atlatl/Cossack, and civ6 Korea 2.0. Also I'm gonna bet my liver it will be bottom tier of civs. Honestly it really feels to me like this is fanservice similar to Tamar/Canada, with devs adding the civ without particular inspiration how to design it but because fan popular memes (Lady Six Sky).

Fortunately I have trust in devs that this is Canada of Frontier Pass and next civs will be as brilliant as most of GS designs

EDIT
I forgot to mention that cool fresh water trait is partially wasted if you are not going to found many cities across the map with it lol

The -15% penalty is not that bad IMO as long as you settle your first 9-10 cities inside the cap's 6 tile radius. I'll be shocked if Maya doesn't get a plantation bias. Giving her +10% bonus and +1 gold per farm, she will have one of the best economies in the game in addition to a great science output. Once she gets going, you can quickly develop any new city outside the 6 tile radius using her strong gold revenue. On maps where she can settle at least 7 cities inside the 6 tile radius, she'll do great. I'm just afraid that she'll be a bit boring to play as her playthough strategy is rather restrictive.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Also I'm gonna bet my liver it will be bottom tier of civs.

I don't see so many people who overestimate The Maya and call them OP. But I see some people who very easily underestimate them as a low tier Georgia level civ, or I should say liver civ
You might be disappointed with their design. It's subjective. But I hear an echo of "I don't like them so let them be weak" in your post.

 

[bengalryan9]

Also I'm gonna bet my liver it will be bottom tier of civs.

The half price campus alone keeps that from being the case.

 

[Lord Lakely]

The half price campus alone keeps that from being the case.

This + a UU that makes them virtually impervious to early invasion after you get Archery.

The Mayans have the tools to obtain an empire - the downside is that they'll have to build it themselves, as opposed to conquer enemy civs, which is quicker. C-tier on deity, possibly B-tier on a reasonable difficulty level such as King would be my guess.