[NFP] Maya First Look

[Haig]

New Frontier could include a civ that is like opposite of Maya: citiea get bonuses the farest (dont know how to write it) they are from capital. Like Venice or similar.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

New Frontier could include a civ that is like opposite of Maya: citiea get bonuses the farest (dont know how to write it) they are from capital. Like Venice or similar.

We already have them, colonial civs like Spain or England like putting their cities on different continents.

Personally I don't really know why anyone cares how 'good' they are, as long as they're interesting to play. Take Norway: universally considered garbage but great fun to play, on a watery map at least.

Norway was considered garbage upon launch. I'm not sure if you played civ6 upon launch but I can guarantee you would not have any fun playing Norway in the beginning. Their leader ability used to have only 1 line: Allow coastal raiding for naval melee units and the Viking Longship, that's it. You can go check how long the description for Harald's ability is now. Anyone who still thinks Norway is garbage in GS probably hasn't played the game in at least 3 years or just flat out doesn't know much about the game. The civ is solid even on a land map and the top naval civ on naval map.

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

We already have them, colonial civs like Spain or England like putting their cities on different continents.

Norway was considered garbage upon launch. I'm not sure if you played civ6 upon launch but I can guarantee you would not have any fun playing Norway in the beginning. Their leader ability used to have only 1 line: Allow coastal raiding for naval melee units and the Viking Longship, that's it. You can go check how long the description for Harald's ability is now. Anyone who still thinks Norway is garbage in GS probably hasn't played the game in at least 3 years or just flat out doesn't know much about the game. The civ is solid even on a land map and the top naval civ on naval map.

Wrong, I did have fun playing them at launch.

I don't profess to be especially good at the game so have often wondered why Norway were considered bad, but they still show up towards the bottom of most GS tier lists so I simply assumed that this was the conventional wisdom.

Not that I care, which was of course the point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/commen..._source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

https://www.fanbyte.com/guides/civ-6-guide-civilization-tier-list-november-2019/

https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/civ-6-tier-list-civ-6-best-civilizations

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Wrong, I did have fun playing them at launch.

I don't profess to be especially good at the game so have often wondered why Norway were considered bad, but they still show up towards the bottom of most GS tier lists so I simply assumed that this was the conventional wisdom.

Not that I care, which was of course the point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/commen..._source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

https://www.fanbyte.com/guides/civ-6-guide-civilization-tier-list-november-2019/

https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/civ-6-tier-list-civ-6-best-civilizations

The 2nd list placed Canada and Korea in the same tier, enough said.
The 3rd list gave Canada 80 points and Scythia 70, he also thought Canada belonged in the same tier as Australia and Nubia, again, enough said. Pretty much sums it up how I feel about the level of these authors.
The 1st list's author said Norway was bad because you couldn't conquer with the Longship, which 100% missed the point, as if anyone in the right mind would use naval melee units for conquering in Civ 6. The longship is so strong and impossible to deal with because they are stronger, faster, cheaper and can heal in neutral water, compared to the galley. No one except for Phoenicia can fend them off, so you have to abandon the coast, no district or improvement is safe on the coast.

So there you go. You said you were not especially good at the game but I highly doubt that any of these people know the game as much as you.

 

[bite]

While all this discussion about Norway is interesting, maybe it would be best if we look back to The Maya

 

[blackcatatonic]

New Frontier could include a civ that is like opposite of Maya: citiea get bonuses the farest (dont know how to write it) they are from capital. Like Venice or similar.

This might be something nice for Portugal to reflect a sense of 'colonisation' without actually introducing a colony system/mechanic.

 

[Socrates-]

This might be something nice for Portugal to reflect a sense of 'colonisation' without actually introducing a colony system/mechanic.

This does sound fitting (and pretty cool)! However, If the result of this mechanic would be a bunch of distant cities scattered across the map, how would you cope with Loyalty? A worldwide loyalty bonus for coastal cities does sound somewhat strong... (in comparison to the continental bonus Phoenicia/Dido has)

 

[blackcatatonic]

This does sound fitting (and pretty cool)! However, If the result of this mechanic would be a bunch of distant cities scattered across the map, how would you cope with Loyalty? A worldwide loyalty bonus for coastal cities does sound somewhat strong... (in comparison to the continental bonus Phoenicia/Dido has)

Good point; they would need some kind of loyalty buff to compensate. Perhaps a buff for all cities not on the same continent as the capital?

It would likely have to be an innate buff rather than a building because if you settle somewhere with -20 loyalty, you're not hanging on to that city for long enough to build anything.

 

[AntSou]

This does sound fitting (and pretty cool)! However, If the result of this mechanic would be a bunch of distant cities scattered across the map, how would you cope with Loyalty? A worldwide loyalty bonus for coastal cities does sound somewhat strong... (in comparison to the continental bonus Phoenicia/Dido has)

- Coastal cities in foreign continents with a governor do not suffer loyalty pressure;
- Portuguese unique governor with abilities when assigned to a city in a foreign continent;
- Each Nau within city range and inside the borders of a coastal city in a foreign continent applies +2 loyalty to that city; (or +4 to the first, +2 to each subsequent one)
- Portuguese cities in foreign continents do not apply loyalty pressure to other Civs.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Good point; they would need some kind of loyalty buff to compensate. Perhaps a buff for all cities not on the same continent as the capital?

It would likely have to be an innate buff rather than a building because if you settle somewhere with -20 loyalty, you're not hanging on to that city for long enough to build anything.

I love the idea of buffs and loyalty support for cities not on the continent!

However, Firaxis have tried two different iterations of this in the Royal Navy Dockyard loyalty bonus and Didos loyalty immunity (if you move your capital).

I remember them saying they initially gave Dido complete loyalty immunity but it was just too strong so they seem to be quite tentative with loyalty.

Maybe if they gave a version of the golden age that increase population? Having an extra population on colonial cities would alleviate some loyalty issues?

 

[AvianBritish]

Good point; they would need some kind of loyalty buff to compensate. Perhaps a buff for all cities not on the same continent as the capital?

It would likely have to be an innate buff rather than a building because if you settle somewhere with -20 loyalty, you're not hanging on to that city for long enough to build anything.

What if the first city they settle in each different continent is uneffected by loyalty or get +20 loyalty towards it like Dido's capital?
Or Govenors provide +20 loyalty or make the city immune to loyalty? (which they can only have the effect in as many cities as they have govenors at the time; up to 7 but pending on how they use/accumialate govenor titles)
Maybe link it in with Feitoras to give bonus loyalty like the RND and Mission?

 

[AvianBritish]

I love the idea of buffs and loyalty support for cities not on the continent!

However, Firaxis have tried two different iterations of this in the Royal Navy Dockyard loyalty bonus and Didos loyalty immunity (if you move your capital).

I remember them saying they initially gave Dido complete loyalty immunity but it was just too strong so they seem to be quite tentative with loyalty.

Maybe if they gave a version of the golden age that increase population? Having an extra population on colonial cities would alleviate some loyalty issues?

Maybe Portugese cities start with 1 population per era level when the city is settled on a foegin continent. Portugese cities exert and recive half loyalty pressure from neigbouring cities?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Just checking, are you aware they nerfed pillaging for all civs to be mainly gold and healing, and now Norway is the only civ that can pillage Science and Culture (and they generate quite a lot when doing so)?

That's neat, but I was more going for +50% pillage value in general or something pf that nature, instead of simply getting different yields for pillaging. I had no idea this ever happened, I still fairly often pillage culture and science from districts, but now that you mentioned this, is it in reference to Mercury and similiar tile improvements that used to give science? that might be a pretty significant buff for Norway, though I definitely don't think it'll make the civ viable by itself. It still needs at least a single bonus not exclusively limited to warfare.

also, yeah, back to maya!

what the hell happens if you start coastal, and have only potential for 2 or 3 cities in your 6-tile distance. do you go really tall, or move your settler for 5 turns, or just accept the penalties for settling cities outside, or do you just reload? that stuff happens very often to me so I don't think it will be unlikely.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

What if the first city they settle in each different continent is uneffected by loyalty

That's exactly what I was saying to my boyfriend 10 minutes ago. It would fit the idea of "colonization throught trading posts" that Portugal really had. You won't have a big, massive colonial empire like Spain, England or France, but rather a scattered territory across the world that allows you to have trade routes with max foreign cities to have a lot of gold.

 

[sonicmyst]

With Maya geared towards tall gameplay, I hope other tall civs get some balancing love as well. Like hello Khmer (Kongo, India and Indonesia are already great imo)

 

[IvoryPavane]

Maybe Portugese cities start with 1 population per era level when the city is settled on a foegin continent. Portugese cities exert and recive half loyalty pressure from neigbouring cities?

Yeah! That’s a smashing idea!

I think one pop per era on each city is probably too strong, but 1 pop per era (min 1) for the first founded city would help get a foothold.

And then exert/receive half loyalty pressure when a governor is in place?

 

[AntSou]

The problem is that Portugal isn't the best Civ to represent Colonialism and the Golden Era of Portuguese maritime expansion does not coincide with the zenith of its colonial efforts.

More representative would be:

- Nau Unique Unit. Powerful Renaissance Era Ranged Naval Unit. Replaces the Frigate and is unlocked with Cartography. Costs 10 Niter (vs 20) and cheaper to build and maintain. May establish Feitorias (1 charge);

- Feitoria unique improvement: May be established on coastal tiles in foreign continents. Occupying unit receives +4 Defense Strength and automatically gains 2 turns of fortification. Claims all land adjacent to it. Gains a copy of any strategic or luxury resource within its borders (improvement not required). May be occupied by naval units.

- Ability: Coastal Cities conquered by Portugal on foreign continents with a governor do not suffer loyalty pressure. Albuquerque unique governor.

 

[AvianBritish]

Yeah! That’s a smashing idea!

I think one pop per era on each city is probably too strong, but 1 pop per era (min 1) for the first founded city would help get a foothold.

And then exert/receive half loyalty pressure when a governor is in place?

Well you could make it so it's "Celestial Navigation, Naval Tradition, Cartography and Colonialism provide +1 population to each to the first city built on foegin continent when settled." meaning that portugal would get (if they complete all Civics/Techs in that era) 1 pop in ancient, 2 pops in Classical, 3 pops in Medieval, 4 pops in Reniasance, 5 in the Industrial. (then +3 if you get the golden age bonus). Of course you can add or remove civcs/techs from that. but that's 1 per era for the first 4 post-ancient eras.

Also... I think we're off topic here now, this is the Maya first look page and were speculating about Portugal. I'm posting a copy of this in the full NFP thread to carry the conversation on there.

 

[steveg700]

Just checking, are you aware they nerfed pillaging for all civs to be mainly gold and healing, and now Norway is the only civ that can pillage Science and Culture (and they generate quite a lot when doing so)?

All civ's can pillage science and culture from districts, and the amount that can be reaped is disgusting given that the AI will spend turns in the middle of a war repairing the district just to have its attacker pillage it again.

 

[DWilson]

All civ's can pillage science and culture from districts, and the amount that can be reaped is disgusting given that the AI will spend turns in the middle of a war repairing the district just to have its attacker pillage it again.

From the Antarctic Late Summer Update:

• Pillaging
  • [ALL GAME VERSIONS] Convert Science and Culture from pillaging improvements to Gold or Faith.
  • Reduce effectiveness of Raid and Total War policies so they are only +50% instead of +100% to pillaging
  • Dam districts now provides healing if plundered.
  • Pillaged Reactors cannot trigger a nuclear accident. Completing the 'Recommission Nuclear Reactor' project will also 'un-pillage' it.

So this is true, but much more limited than it used to be, as all civs used to be able to pillage Science and Culture from improvements, whereas now it is only districts. Thanks for the added point!