Mayor problems for team Roadkill

[CreeDakota]

I was looking at the map and thinking some more about this game long term. To win via Domination we need ALL of Wilhelms, Darius', and Victoria's land plus a little bit more. I would much rather fight those three than any of Sury, Mao, or Saladin (SMS). with that in Mind I would like to make nice with SMS. I think organized religion is both Sals and Surys favorite civic so they should be easy to get to pleased. Sury and Mao both make demands so we should consider giving them something if asked to cury favor.

 

[CreeDakota]

the board has been quiet So I will go ahead and play a set soon. I will target settleing that silver ctiy, getting GL started in capital, and as much military as I can manage.

 

[CreeDakota]

Ok i played a short turn set using the plan I proposed, unfortunately wilhelm settled the area I wanted. So now we need to discuss our next move.

Here is my Turn Log:

T159-Whip monument in Bursa, start on Spy. Istanbul build worker run max scientist, Edrine switch to Hamman
T-160-Switch research to currency, we should easily get Music anyway.
T-161-Blah
T-162-Great Engineer born in Istanbul, one scientist fired to hurry worker. Hamman whipped in Edrine.
T-163 Barracks done in Ankara. Realize I am beaten to silver spot. I wanted to stop here and pause for comment but hit enter on accident with a settler started in Edrine
T 164 With IMP and so much over flow settler is only 4 turns so decide to finish him, Barracks done in Ankara start Axe
T 165 Worker Done in Instanbul. GL started, 32ttbuild but will be less with workers and growth. Fire Scientists.
T 166. Vicky is done with the ToA; I check her holy city and she is 4 turns from I believe her first GP with most likley a scientist. China is first to currency but he want trade since he hates us.
T-167 Spy done in Bursa and I que up another. We have alot of EP power right now so we need to exploit this strength. Settler Done in Ankara.

 

[CreeDakota]

Diplomatically things are not good.

England is our best military target right now..unfortutely not Darius. No metals and half the size of Darius. If Vicky Pops a GS she will either settle in Capital or build Academy in Captial. If GP the Shrine. Either one is a City worth Taking.

But China and Dutch would both love to Attack us since we refused demands. Vicky seems like the type bribe some help.

I think we should be generous with any further requests. we have a tech advantage on the ai with all our GP plus small size and Rep from mids. The AI have a production edge on us with so many more cities. We need to strive to we at war with only one AI at a time, preferably after a DOW by us.

We need to get Monotheism, favorite civic of Both Sury and Saladin. We need someone besides our intended vicitms to like us.

I also fear we will eventually need to chose a religion.

So WAR?!

diplomatic choice-China
miltary choice-England
Economic choice -Persia

 

[CreeDakota]

Ok now what to do with the settler i made?

I see 3 options:

1)Sit on him. Save GE for War
2) Settle Aggresively to the North.
3) Settle one of two filler cites close to us. Either a surprisingly Decent early game city along the south edge of the map with 2 gems 4 riverside farm, one even a grassland. Or the prettly lame solo deer spot between us and Darius.

Me....I certainly wont sit on since i built it! Im really conflicted but I think trying to get a city settled up north to claim land, pump culture and build a defensive fortress for the AI to hurl themselves at...

 

[CreeDakota]

I could even see no war right now. Instead build a beginers army and go caputre barb cities to the north. Get Exp for HE and some veterans for our first real battle. Plus denies them to AI and I think we can generate the GP for them plus a war.

Also I think we need to get the AI to build more GP for us to ultimately win the game. It is likely we could get every enemy capital from thier own GP. Plus the usually settle a GGeneral iin the new captial.

 

[pholkhero]

I really think war is our only option at this point to have any kind of chance at winning in this game.

i think either of those settling options puts us dangerously out of reach of the city in times of war ~ you may as well kiss it goodbye, i think. i still believe persia is the way to go for all the same reasons ~ holy city, iron, better land...

 

[LKendter]

Cree (just played)
Lkendter (up)
Pholkhereo (on deck)
Killroyan


Got it, but this sounds like we need a plan in place before I play. This one is ugly even without the variant.

 

[CreeDakota]

I am down with War against Darius. my proposition would be:

1)Settle the riverside gems area right by our capital. it is really not a horrible spot by this maps standards and if we dont take it soon vicky will.
2) steal metal casting from Darius.
3) build an army to Capture Susa. Even if our army stinks and that is the only city we can take I think we need to stop him expanding. He doesnt have Cats yet So I think there is a good chance we can defeat a counter attack with a small mix of axes, spears, and archers. A stalemate that generates Great General points for us is still a secondary victory for us.
4)Finish GL in Capital
5)Tech music next.
6) Trade for Monotheism and adopt Organized religion and Judasim. Try and gift some techs to Sury and Sal to get them to pleased. Consider bribing some wars. We need to get the AI busy.

 

[LKendter]

Back to the game. In this game we can only build or conquer a new city if we have a great person for it to settle. We start with a settler, a great spy and a great scientist. That is a big boost but we cannot build anymore cities untill the next great person. So the general rules are:

1) We can only build or conquer a new city if it gets a mayor aka GP (this means settling one directly after it is build or the conquered city must have got 1 GP settled). Spying will be important.
2) We cannot raze any city.
3) We can have vassals
4) All GP's must be settled
5) Only way to win is domination (although all other victory option are open for the AI)

What happens if an AI city offers to flip to us? England built Canterbury way to close to us. A flip is a possibility later on. We can't raze per the rules, yet we may not have a GP to put in the city.


We aren't close to ready for a war, so I am going to play now. Try to get more military built, connect our cities, and build the mediocre gems city.

 

[LKendter]

95 BC
I notice the forest chop by Istanbul. On this map, we really need to be careful chopping forest. Most of our production will be from forest tiles. I cancel the chop, as I prefer us to chop tiles outside of Istanbul's 21 tiles. All we will do is create a plains tile, which is pretty useless.


65 BC
Konya is formed to claim the gems. I steal the deer from Edirne (with too much food) and start a worker. After merging in the Engineer we only need to wait 10 turns. This city is really jammed tighter then I would like, so I feel this is our last natural settle. The next cities need to come via war.
(IT) England got a prophet! The used it next turn to build the Jewish shrine.


35 BC
Persia just aggressively settled next to us.




Summary:
Persia won't be an easy target. I found three cites with walls to bring down. The big advantage with Persia is diplomatic isolation.

The English and Dutch share a religion, and could very well tag team us in a war. However, York is easy to access and has the Jewish shrine. It is building the AP due in 27 turns.

Economy is our big issue right now. I have workers connecting our last cities now. We really need shrine income to keep growing.

Konya badly needs culture. York is ready to expand its culture influence again. The monastery should be whipped as soon as the city is size 2.

Music in 23 turns, and we should hopefully grab that free artist.
I think Istanbul must stay in pure wonder mode to speed up more GP. The question is Parthenon or National Epic next. The Great Library is due in 8 turns.



Cree
Lkendter (just played)
Pholkhereo (up)
Killroyan (on deck)

 

[·Imhotep·]

Lurker's comment:

OMG, another one of those horrid Boreal maps. I was with pholky one PH-08 - People of the Deer. Although we won it was a map I never wanted to play again. Good luck on your ride!

 

[CreeDakota]

Lktender I disagree with a few points of yours

1) Food is the limit for Istanbul not hammers. A plains riverside farm in Instanbul is superior to a plains forest. Plus we get the chop to accelerate GL. It is still well below happy cap and we plan for NE there.
2)I dont like Konya's placement at all. It does not pick up any of the farmable riverside tiles at all and is swamped by English culture. On this map a farmable riverside tile is powerful.
3)We are not limited by Economy, we are limited by our production and our Diplomacy. We have a tech lead and our tech pace is not slowing due to expansion. We are poised to steal some techs (sucks we got unlucky with our first spy!) and nail some wonders that will let us easily keep that tech edge. It is unlikely that we will lose our tech lead until well in the future.

If we lose this game it will be due to poor diplo (and ofcourse the tough Rules!) we currently have no AI at pleased. It is very concievable that Sury, Mao, Vicky, or Wilhelm Declare on us. Add to that that we need to war on Darius and We may have the entire map against us! We will really need to war well to win this game.

I'll look a bit more at the save for some more analysis and make some suppestions for a Pholkhero's PPPlan.

 

[CreeDakota]

Looking a bit more closely at the save I can see the point you're making about the Economy Lkenter. We are one city away from being at enough maintance costs to be at break even at 100% gold. Note this wont mean we wont tech ok since we have Rep and enough specialists to tech but it means we need to account for increased costs as we expand. We can also switch to building wealth if we need to. So I would basically ignore this problem for now and charge ahead into WAR.

Ankara should whip in its Hamman and get back to units.

Edrine is due for a whip as well. It really need some specialists slots there. I would likley whip a jew temple since Vicky is poised to build a Jewish AP.

I would keep Bursa on Spy production. Spies will be invaluble for faster war. After that build granary then wealth.

Konya I would have rather have a temple for culture so it could then run a priest, do you expect us to build missionaries for shrine income?

In Istanbul after GL is done I would produce military. Darius is teching Monarchy now. Good chance he will go Feudalism soon after and especially if we declare on him. We are in trouble if we dont declare on him pre-longbows.

We should have the music GA and a second GPerson from Istanbul in 20 turns. We should try and be poised for war ASAP when those come in.

Our cities could use some micro. we are not working high food tiles in Ankara and Edrine. Grow unhappy if we need to and just whip those rioting bastards into infastructure.

Finally WAR WAR WAR WAR! We need to Go to WAR!!!

Oh and we need to have some Diplo discussion. I would consider gifting a tech to everyone I feel very vulnerable to mass DOW.

 

[LKendter]

We do have a challenge in this one that the team sees the variant so differently. Not sure how to get the team on the same page...

Konya I would have rather have a temple for culture so it could then run a priest, do you expect us to build missionaries for shrine income?

I care about getting the fastest source of culture quickly. The monastery gives us +2 CPT in 9 turns; the temple takes longer for +1 CPT.

In Istanbul after GL is done I would produce military.

I feel GP production is a must. That means continuing to build wonders as much as possible in our capitol. There is no way to get enough GPs to win without a lot more GP production. NE and Parthenon both help with that.
I don't want to depend on getting enough great generals.

We should have the music GA and a second GPerson from Istanbul in 20 turns. We should try and be poised for war ASAP when those come in.

I agree with war shortly after that. The question is who.
I don't like war with Darius. I prefer England as the target despite the risk of the Dutch joining the war. We get a holy city for a huge boost in income. As you noticed, we barely break even at 10% science.
Wait until he builds the AP, and grab York. I feel England is weaker in military. The English lands will be a much better fit with our territory. It gives us a nice clean front. Persia gives us a stretched empire. Plus we are fighting Persia when is UU is the most useful.

SGs don't work well with everyone on a different page. I feel like Cree and I have totally different views how to play this. I think the first thing we need to do is a team vote for war target.
Cree = Persia
LKendter = England
Pholkhereo = ?
Killroyan = ?

 

[pholkhero]

i'd really have to look at the save to make a firm choice, but i think economy and GPs are going to be our limiting factor as well.

most of our cities are going to be crap on this map so we'll be paying more in relative maintenance per city ~ w/o the corresponding high pop and high commerce that goes with it, the costs will be a higher proportion of income.

also, to win dom on an all land map is tough as it is. add to that the requirement of the GPs, and the level rises drastically. realistically, i find this game to be unwinnable (but that's why i joined! ). that notwithstanding, we still we need an azz-load of GPs to get anywhere, so without a dedicated GPfarm as yet, and the fact that it looks like we're leaning towards Istanbul for that, i think it should continue on with wonders in the near term. however, i do think we'll need to stick a unit or two in there before the next one.

we're going to need a large cat/axe army to make any headway against whomever we choose to fight ~ we'll lose a lot to suicides to bring down the defenders.

i can play for the next 10/15 turns, and continue on with military production while we wait to decide on a target ~

another question for the group to decide on.

finally, i'll take a look at the save tomorrow morning and let you know what i think.

 

[LKendter]

i'd really have to look at the save to make a firm choice, but i think economy and GPs are going to be our limiting factor as well.

That was my deciding factor in England and taking York. IIRC it already has ~10 GPT in shrine income. We can get the good city first. Persia is a lot of crap cities before we can get the shrine.

 

[CreeDakota]

I dont think we as far apart as you think Lkendter. I am very open to reasoned arguements from
all players. Civ rarely has one clear best answer and always has different routes to the same end. Votes are fine with me. Please do not assume my vote until a vote is called.

I VOTE England WAR.

I agree England is the best target Military wise. I posted as much in this thread a few days ago. We have been thinking Darius many for Diplo reasons and I hoped we could attack his shrine along time ago. When I was gung-ho on Darius DOW was Around 30-40 turns ago when he had the the only shrined Holy city and still no metal. I am fine if we switch targets to Vicky. York is tempting. If we can get london too situation improves ALOT.

My point is to not delay war. If wilhelm gets pissed we will just have to fight him off. I think we can do that. Or maybe we can spread Judaism and control the AP? That would keep Wilhelm off our back!

I have not done any real analysis on how many great people we will need to settle enough cities for Domination on this map. Perhaps I will invest some time into figuring that out, we can estimate how many cities needed from the Victory screen right? We then need to estimate the amount the AI could settle Great People for us (I guess two per A.I on average, but Imagine we can only conquer from 3 or 4 AI?) so we can capture their cities. That should leave us how many GP or GG we need to make for us win the game. Does anyone have the skill to estimate or calculate how many GP we can hope to generate under some basic assumptions? How much does that number change with a NE or another +2GPPoints from a wonder an extra 15-20 turns earlier.

Personally I see being at war as part of our Mayor strategy with great Generals. Being at war and winning or even holding even with defensive victory helps us alot.

And I feel we can gain much more ground in terms of conventional competition with the AI via war right now then through a faster Great Person in Instanbul. I support a somewhat balanced approach and would not keep Instanbul on Military for too long (maybe one turnset). Just build us enough units to get us over the hump military wise to acctually take two cities and defend a counter attack. As is we are really just keeping up with the AI garrisons in miltary expansion.

SO I propose a second vote:

Miltary Production in Istanbul or Wonder/National Epic Production for next Turnset?

Cree-WAR Builds!
Lkendter-???
Pholkhero-???
Killroyan-???

I also propose that in the case of a tie Killroyan breaks it since he started this game (or maybe yatta would chime in or Killroyan could recruit a lurker?)

 

[CreeDakota]

OK so I dont normally do this kind of crunching but:

I think we need around 45-48 cities to win domination. The variable depends on culture press and amount of lake tiles and cites by the edge.

I base my crude caluculation on This:

map is 32x49 tiles =1568 tiles. Domination is 64% or 1004 tiles. 21 tiles per city based on just BFC is 1004/21= 47.8 cities.

So using 47 great people as a goal => started with 3, earn 1 for Music, one from Economics, one from Physics, one from Fascism, assume capture two cities from Darius, wilhelm and vicky based on thier own great people = 34 great people to make. Wowza that sounds like alot!

Attacking China may be needed just to get some more Free great People Cities! Perhaps if we get the AI to war some they will get more Great People and we can increase the number of Settle Great People cities to capture?

Anyway I still feel war is a productive path to Great People.

 

[CreeDakota]

Ok so Pholks point about so many cities we will end up which will suck makes me think: Religious economy.

Very Likley we have AP religion, we have stone and we want to build wonders anyway. Making a temple +2 gold/beaker/hammer could be a game changer. Add Angkor wat and those Priest slots start to rock as well. Normallly I dont like this wonder but this game bring on the Great Prophets they are sweet to settle!

England is 27 turns form AP build, 14 turns from next great person which will most likley be a Great prophet. Note Canterbury is a Holy city too. I propse we target DOW in 27 turns. with goal of stealing the pope SEAT ASAP. Move DOW date up if vicky's AP build date moves up (too bad we cant go chop for her!) She is the only AI with Theology.