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Mazatl: Feedback, and general questions

I thought I'd rather ressurect this thread than create a new one. I installed FF a few days ago and then warkirbys artfix, been playing Scions for a while, now testing the Mazatl.

I ran into the following problem(s):

- my jungle don't spread (just like the normal game jungle spread speed) and I cannot create them manually, in a normal speed game at turn 400 only my capital site and the surrounding cities had jungles, jungles that had been there at the beginning of the game. The forest to jungle conversion was also extremely slow. I intentionally left a lot of plots without improvement so a jungle or forest could spread but it simply did not happen

- my workers cannot spring plains. I read here on the forum that supposedly the Mazatl workers can spring plains into marshes and then the marsh into swamps or the other way around, so that on the wet terrain eventually a jungle will grow. Well I had a lot of plains but my workers spring button was greyed out. I could not terraform it. I could however spring swamps into marsh (or marsh into wetlands whatever it's called), I even tried scorching the plain into a desert first and then spring up from there but it doesn't work for me.

- so how do I actively spread jungle in my territory? Fast and reliable?

- as jungles are the lizards main improvements, why not simply make it like the bloom spell and give it a casting time of 4 turns on normal speed (like the lost lands for Scions), this auto spreading isn't working for me :(
 
Although plains will gradually on their own in mazatl/caulli teritroy turn into grasslands. And eventually marsh on its own. Heck left to its own devices every flatland eventually theoretically would be come a jungle/marsh/swamp, if unimproved. Though it could take a very long time.
Except... Deserts/Ice I think. But its not like those take much effort to fix as mazatl.
 
Maybe I did something wrong with the installation then, because the transformation rate first to grasslands and then to jungle is hardly noticeable at all. The only thing that goes relatively fast (every ten to twenty turns or so) is the swampimisation of riverside grassland.

@Valkrionn : I cannot turn grssland into marsh either, I can only spring swamp into marsh (or is it marsh into swamp? the slightly more green thingie)

In any case the transformation rate I experience does not justify the not improvement of the terrain. If by turn 400 my unimproved, mostly plains terrain, has not changed into a lush jungle, I have missed so much commerce and production that even if suddenly all becomes jungle I will not be able to match the AI.

Edit: At least the left forests in my territory should convert to jungles at the same rate forests become ancient forests in FoL territory.
Edit 2: If the Mazatl get archmages asap they can send those 4 national units to terraforming duty, theoretically you could build all the improvements until you have nature 3 archmages, as you can't get any druids, and then vitalize the terrain to grassland, then destroy all the improvements and hope a jungle will spawn. That's so not worth it imo...
 
Furin said:
Maybe I did something wrong with the installation then, because the transformation rate first to grasslands and then to jungle is hardly noticeable at all. The only thing that goes relatively fast (every ten to twenty turns or so) is the swampimisation of riverside grassland.

@Valkrionn : I cannot turn grssland into marsh either, I can only spring swamp into marsh (or is it marsh into swamp? the slightly more green thingie)

In any case the transformation rate I experience does not justify the not improvement of the terrain. If by turn 400 my unimproved, mostly plains terrain, has not changed into a lush jungle, I have missed so much commerce and production that even if suddenly all becomes jungle I will not be able to match the AI.

Edit: At least the left forests in my territory should convert to jungles at the same rate forests become ancient forests in FoL territory.
Edit 2: If the Mazatl get archmages asap they can send those 4 national units to terraforming duty, theoretically you could build all the improvements until you have nature 3 archmages, as you can't get any druids, and then vitalize the terrain to grassland, then destroy all the improvements and hope a jungle will spawn. That's so not worth it imo...
Click to expand...

Its very random, sometimes it spreads like the plague. Sometimes it seems to refuse at all.

Also, jungles can pop up on improvements for the lizards. Just because an improvement is there doesn't mean it cant spawn a jungle in lizard lands on its own.

SWAMPS however are an improvement themselves.

Spring will instantly spawn a Swamp on a Marsh.


And no, swamps atm, aren't really any use past very early game or in new cities founded in jungle. In part this is due to them loosing alot of commerce from the removal of deep jungle.

Also. Back when the lizards had deep jungle/wetlands, they didn't get quite as steeply penalized for building in them.


Oh, and you are aware the lizards can build improvements in jungles, right? Even if their workrate is terrible--preticularly so in their own native terrain now(Back with deep jungles and wetlands, they had no penalty in deep jungles and wetlands. Marshes and jungles however still provide the buildrate modifier penalty to them... which... sucks. Horribly. Since shapers/laborers are already VERY low buildrate workers)
 
That would be very easy to fix... Do what I did for the Malakim (believe that change made it to FF). Give them an autoacquire promo in jungle that boosts workrate, and another in marsh. Make them both match the negative and be effectpromos, and they'll balance it out while remaining invisible on the unit.. Less clutter. Hell, could be the same as the Malakim promo and make their workers invisible when on their native terrain as well.
 
I don't think you did something wrong, it's the same for me. I haven't played for a while, but I'm around turn 800 or so (Marathon) and some of my oldest cities (which weren't build in Jungles or Grassland) have only 1/3 Marshes or so.
The conversion rate really sucks, yes. I don't know if it's tied to terrain, because at rivers and coasts it's ok.
And springing Grassland to Marsh doesn't work for me, too.
 
basically, the Mazatl where nerfed into the ground from a super wrestler slam and chair to the face. However this was done accidentally, I think.

whatabout increasing yield of jungle for lizards to make it more like the old deep jungle?
Maybe increase cost of settlers in order to "balance" it?

As a quick side note, who did the art for the Scions? I think they could make some really cool looking lizard units to replace the current bland-ness. (be warned I havent played them since deep jungles were removed so the art could be better now)

by cool I mean like how a hippus assasin looks cool compared to a BTS swordsman or axeman. Just cause their lizards doesnt mean they can't have musculature, decoration, and paint.
 
I see, I got confused with the "old" overpowered Mazatl described in various posts and the new nerfed ones. That's okay, I thought I did something wrong but it seems they just need some re-balancing.

I looked into the spells .py and there is no spell for grass->marsh, just swamp to marsh for the lizard civs. So you need to wait for the natural conversion.

Edit: I think the art looks ok for them, at least the models are pretty nice (muscular bodies). I can only keep them apart in the selcetion section by checking the name though, that's all green and tiny there, but my eyes aren't the best either.
 
Problem is that all the lizardmen are basically naked. Hianthrogh's leaderpicture conveys that it shouldn't be that way. So they could do with some armour on various units. Perhaps I'll see about getting to that, though I have a big list of other projects still.
 
I agree totally, the art of the Mazatl seems to be their least problem as it is :D

Later, instead of armor I'd suggest body painting and tatoos like mentioned in one of the above posts. Like that you can use the existing models and just add some color here and there and, voila :eek:
 
WarKirby said:
Problem is that all the lizardmen are basically naked. Hianthrogh's leaderpicture conveys that it shouldn't be that way. So they could do with some armour on various units. Perhaps I'll see about getting to that, though I have a big list of other projects still.
Click to expand...

Other way around is preferable. The units themselves are ok - the Leaderhead was a concession to the fact I couldn't find anything better. The character depicted is Draconian, rather than a lizard...
 
Furin said:
I see, I got confused with the "old" overpowered Mazatl described in various posts and the new nerfed ones. That's okay, I thought I did something wrong but it seems they just need some re-balancing.

I looked into the spells .py and there is no spell for grass->marsh, just swamp to marsh for the lizard civs. So you need to wait for the natural conversion.

Edit: I think the art looks ok for them, at least the models are pretty nice (muscular bodies). I can only keep them apart in the selcetion section by checking the name though, that's all green and tiny there, but my eyes aren't the best either.
Click to expand...


I did a modification of the Spring spell for the Jotnar mod I'm working on...it will do most of what you want. Just need to add the marsh>swamp functionality. Or you can just use spring for that...

Code: 
def reqSoak(caster):
	pPlot = caster.plot()
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
	bFlames = false
	iX = pPlot.getX()
	iY = pPlot.getY()
	sValidTerrains = ['TUNDRA', 'GRASS', 'PLAINS', 'FIELDS_OF_PERDITION', 'DESERT']
	iValidTerrains = [gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_' + sTerrain) for sTerrain in sValidTerrains]
	if bFlames == False:
		if (pPlot.getTerrainType() in iValidTerrains):
			return True
	return False


Code: 
def spellSoak(caster):
	pPlot = caster.plot()
	iTerrain = pPlot.getTerrainType()
	if iTerrain == gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_TUNDRA'):
		pPlot.setTerrainType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_MARSH'),True,True)
	elif iTerrain == gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_GRASS'):
		pPlot.setTerrainType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_MARSH'),True,True)
	elif iTerrain == gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_PLAINS'):
		pPlot.setTerrainType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_GRASS'),True,True)
	elif iTerrain == gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_FIELDS_OF_PERDITION'):
		pPlot.setTerrainType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_SHALLOWS'),True,True)
	elif iTerrain == gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_DESERT'):
		pPlot.setTerrainType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TERRAIN_PLAINS'),True,True)
	for iiX in range(iX-1, iX+2, 1):
		for iiY in range(iY-1, iY+2, 1):
			pPlot2 = CyMap().plot(iiX,iiY)
			if pPlot2.getFeatureType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('FEATURE_FLAMES'):
				pPlot2.setFeatureType(-1, -1)
			if pPlot2.getImprovementType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('IMPROVEMENT_SMOKE'):
				pPlot2.setImprovementType(-1)
		
	# declare war at plot owner
	if pPlot.isOwned():
		cf.startWar(caster.getOwner(), pPlot.getOwner(), WarPlanTypes.WARPLAN_TOTAL)

Spoiler :
<SpellInfo> <!-- Soak -->
<Type>SPELL_SOAK</Type>
<Description>Soak</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_SPRING_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<PromotionPrereq1>PROMOTION_JOT_GIANTKIN</PromotionPrereq1>
<PromotionPrereq2>PROMOTION_SEAKIN</PromotionPrereq2>
<bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
<bDisplayWhenDisabled>1</bDisplayWhenDisabled>
<bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
<PyResult>spellSoak(pCaster)</PyResult>
<PyRequirement>reqSoak(pCaster)</PyRequirement>
<Effect>EFFECT_SPRING</Effect>
<Sound>AS3D_SPELL_SPRING</Sound>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Spells/Spring.dds</Button>
</SpellInfo>



You'd want to change the prereqs to something attainable for lizards, of course. :lol
 
I think the main problem is that almost all the lizards use the same bodies. Not quite true for the humans. When I imagine a lizard warrior I dont think of a hunchback skink with green scales and a white belly.

I like the Immortal they have, but I think variation of the same kind as the orcs you have. they also are mostly naked although most look different in ways of body shape, spikes, ect.

I think its fine to make some orcish or demonic looking lizards in the sense that they are not full of bare skin. Maybe some natural armor on the backs of a phalanx, or a shorter lizard with a longer tail and buggy eyes for the recon. Maybe a Chameleon type model for the arcane line, with the prominent long fingers reaching towards the sky in a shamanistic manner.

Perhaps have the champion have broad shoulders and hunched like a Defensive lineman, with Spikes on his shoulders and larger arms n claws than the other units.

There is alot of variation that could be there, I think the main problem is that since the Lizards have a bigger base model, in addition to no clothing, the similarities are just too obvious for me. I'd kinda like the idea for it to not have to be the same stature/diet and race for each unit. Some could be physcially better at different tasks due to their body structure, or be a different race altogether.

Yes the units are ok. I am trying to think of ways to make them as good as the other teams. I'll have to give them another look-over, but I love the Wyvern and everything else is so ... meh, even compared to far more vanilla civs.
 
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