mb1 20K double whammy

I would say the French, the German, or the Egpytian site. However, it depends where on the minimap they are located. If they are located far north, tundra would be very close. If it is in the middle, it could have lots of jungle and desert.
BTW: is this PTW1.21 or Vanilla 1.29?
 
It's Vanilla 1.29.

Personally, I am not against the Chinese start either. But I was waiting for mad-bax to decide if it's the case to give more info on the starting positions...

I have been thinking of the civ traits, instead. Since we are basicly trying to get as many wonders as possible, I was considering some avoidance manoeuvres for too early a Golden Age:

- Egypt: no escape
- France: delay Lighthouse
- China, Japan, Germany: delay Great Wall

So, Egypt has a good start, an unavoidable early Golden Age... what about the 2CC with Cleo? ;)

Or, since I was also looking for some fightingh (yes, the Melée was not enough...), a more conventional game with any of the others. I have no real preference, except maybe I would discard France (nothing against the French, you know, just my personal preference for the Civ civs...).
 
andvruss: The game will be vanilla 1.29. I would have preferred PTW for the Internet wonder and the other Civs, but players in different locations use different patches and the saves are not always compatible. I wanted to make the game as accessible to as many people as possible.

I hope this is OK.

I would like to take the opportunity to open up the start position discussion a little further.

When I originally had the idea for this game, I thought the Chinese would make a good CIV to play, for three reasons.

1. The industrious trait will allow us to join workers to the two culture cities early in the game to get their production up quickly and still be able to improve tiles at a reasonable rate.

2. The militaristic trait gives a slightly higher probability of getting leaders.

3. The UU is quite strong and comes at an important stage in the game where sistine, sun Tzus, magellans, copernicus, newtons, Bachs and Shakespears all come in quick succession. It would be difficult to build all of these, and so leaders will likely be necessary.

That said the Chinese start position is quite good. It is on the coast immediately without a settler move, the game once cleared and irrigated will give 4 food (I think in despotism) and the shield potential is high.

The Japanese start position looks less good but has huge commerce potential because of all the rivers once combined with the Collosus. It also has BG and mountain tiles which will give good shield potential. The Japanese have a very Strong UU at the same time as the Chinese, and start with the wheel (horses) and that is good. The goody hut will either give us nothing or will be beneficial if we pop it b4 building a military unit. We do however have to move the settler to get a coastal city.

I like the Japanese start position a lot.

The Egyptian start is obviously good. But only because we can see so much. The move east to get a coastal city with all three bonuses may lead to a city with quite low shield potential which could hurt later in the game. The Egyptian UU worries me because we will need horses and if we don't get them we will be in trouble. A chariot rush however would be a lot of fun.

The German start looks poor. It took me ages to roll even this start. I just could not persuade the game to give me a coast + river start. This is the only start where I know more about the map than in the picture, and you may discount it on that basis. However without spoiling too much I will say that this start position is at least as good as the others tile value wise ;) . The German UU is a little late for my liking. Generating leaders with Panzers will be trivial, but wonders built in the modern age are little more than window dressing. We may just build these wonders to equalise culture in the two cities. This start is better than you think it is, but it wouldn't be my first choice because I don't think the CIV is the best choice. I only have one vote however.

The French start is a fairly classical settler factory start. The French UU is late, defensive and doesn't upgrade. The commercial trait might be useful for research. Since 40000 culture points will be taken up by two cities we only have 60000 left for the rest of our empire. To get and maintain a tech lead we may not be able to build libraries, unis and research labs in every city, so lots of money might help.

I like the Japanese start best. I like the Chinese traits best. I like the German start least because of its distance from the coast, and I like the French traits least.

My $0.02
 
I read the idea of the 2CC and kept it as an option.

Myself, I would prefer a more conventional game -to experiment with the 20k victory mechanics, and to do some massive fighting... :rocket:

I also share mad-bax' points on the civ traits and starting locations. I would also add that the area surrounding Egypt does not look too promising (jungle? plains / desert?).

So, if we need to call a vote, I would go with China or Japan. Which of the two is hard to tell -but let's take one step at a time.
 
How about using the Japanese start but as the Chinese? :)

IIRC Gramphos' Civ3Multitool allows Vanilla civ saves to be converted to scenarios - the settings for that location could then be changed and saved out again.

Of course we'd need a 3rd party to do the job.

Or do I just want my cake and eat it too?

If we go with what we have then the Japanese start has my vote. I think the settler is standing on BG so move NE would seem favourite (keep the forest to aid granary).


Ted

p.s. I'd prefer not to play as 2CC
 
Originally posted by mad-bax
Ted: I liked your idea so much that's exactly what I did.
At least I got one thing right today :)


Ted
 
Ted: I was VERY tempted to open out the start positions a little by showing the tiles you would see if you settled in the start position. I had done this for the German position already. The reason I didn't was that the German start gave 2 cattle and wines in the radius. I imagined that this would probably remove the need for a vote. It wasn't because of some high principles I've adopted. :)

I hope that everyone is OK with the Start. The consensus seemed to be that China was the best Civ and the Japanese position was the best start. Multitool allows you to define each starting positions' CIV without loading the map, so I just swapped Japan and China over.

I still don't know any more of the map than you guys.

Since there have been no further sign-ups I propose we make a start. I think that at least one other player will join over the next couple of days giving us a roster of 5. Personally I think this is a good number.

So, next order of business.

Does anybody have any clue how to go about this?
 
Hi all,

I can tell vacation has done Mad some good, great idea! Got the idea while hiking? Can't stop a fanatic civving, can you? ;)
Of course I'm in, but please put in a late spot in the roster, I still have to finish my GOTM21.... and stop their SSS's (TM).

This is a tough one, though. How to go about it? Mmm, we have to spread the big culture wonders. I fear some computing has to be done on forehand, no? But 20k could be a bit easier too with two cities instead of one. Just thinking aloud here. What worked for me in GOTM21 (sofar...) was speedy research in the first half of the game, and to slow it down the second. I that way it's easier to work on the wonders as soon as the tech's available, and we don't need to have as many leaders (maybe it could even be done without any... that is only those needed for the special wonders)

Space <-- just realizing she's in three SGs now :eek: (if you let me in, that is)
 
Ehm :blush: in fact, I still have to finish GOTM21 too... I think I can make it, though.

Only, I'll be away this weekend from Friday morning (GMT) to Sunday night -off to a wedding, another wedding. All my friends are getting married this summer, can't understand why...


The game: I agree on Space's approach. In fact, the most difficult part for me in GOTM21 was trying to time the Ancient Era techs to grab as many wonders as possible -which I didn't do too well, admittedly.

I think we can prepare a rough spreadsheet to calculate the culture points -I'll try to think about it as I travel around.


Off-topic: I love hiking too (almost as much as Civ ;) ). Where did you go, MB?
 
OK then. Lets leave it 'till Monday 28th. Ted is up unless he doesn't have time (still to finish 21) in which case I'll take the first 10 turns if you like.

There are a couple of things I would like to talk about before we start anyway, but I'll post about that as soon as I can get 5 minutes away from my proper work. I've been dragged into a vehicle launch (happens once every 3 years) so I'm 6 weeks into 3 months of 16 hour working days. :( I thought I was past all that aggravation.

Space you're in. :) Good Holiday?

Karasu: I went to the English Lake District. Not as spectacular as the Italian version but very beautiful. If I find time I'll post a picture.
 
Originally posted by mad-bax
OK then. Lets leave it 'till Monday 28th. Ted is up unless he doesn't have time (still to finish 21) in which case I'll take the first 10 turns if you like.
I'm OK for the 28th. Should I take 20 to get us up & running?

As far as Wonder strategy goes my thoughts are:
Ancient Times - must get Colossus (Exp/Rel) & Great Library (Sci) - must avoid Great Wall (GA trigger) - if we can get Hanging Gardens (Ind) &/or Pyramids (Ind/Rel) then...
Middle Ages - SunTzu's (Mil) will trigger our GA

We need to check this is 100% accurate for Civ3 but this is my first cut.


Regards

Ted
p.s. welcome aboard Space Oddity
 
Ted: Yes I think you could take 20 turns if thats OK with everyone else. But this leads me to introduce a discussion topic (sorry). How we go about getting wonders, and balancing culture and avoiding early GA etc are extremely important. However I would like to discuss the opening plays and strategy a bit first.

Should our culture cities be our first two cities? If so we will not be able to pre-build in one of them. Also there will be a big production inbalance between City 1 and City 2.

My idea (which may well be stupid) goes something like this.

If (a big if) we get some kind of food bonus in the first radius then we could make city 1 a settler factory. City 2 and 3 would be founded within 5 turns of each other, and one of them (city 2 say)get the FP.
After the Land grab phase is over we could then Free Palace jump to City 3 by disbanding the capital. The first city would also be a good worker and warrior pump. We could use some of the workers to quickly inflate the populations of the two culture cities and also create the odd warrior. These warriors could be used to disband in the culture cities and allow us to rush/whip temples etc. in one turn.

Our research would then need to be pottery at max probably.

If we don't get a food bonus, then maybe it would be best to get a settler out on turn 20 and use the first 2 cities as our culture cities. In this case where does our second settler come from?

Research paths and rates in this case is also more open to debate. We start with Masonry and warrior code, so we can't research a second tier tech (so 40 turn gambit is no good), we need BW for collosus and CB for temples. If we research either of those then writing -> Lit takes longer than if we go alphabet.

On regent the current "best practise" is to research at max to sprint away from the AI. On the other hand it may be a good idea to have a cash reserve, not just for unit upgrades, but for establishing embassies, so that we can investigate AI wonder production to see if we are going to beat them to a wonder or not.

And finally this leads me to my final point. There are 11 opponents on this map. We will not know if they are building wonders or not until we have contact with them. So how do we build enough exploration units and balance that against everything else we have on our plate? Is it worthwhile researching Map Making ourselves or not?

These are only thoughts. Things I have been trying to get my head around over the past couple of days.

Another topic I would like to discuss is wonder timing. This is not only timing prebuilds to tech advances etc. but also timing wonder production in two cities to finish on the same turn to prevent the AI cascading to one.

Hope this isn't too heavy at this stage :)
 
Off Topic.

This is hardly the most spectracular picture of the lakes, but my three year old twin daughters made it to the top of this hill (Loughrigg) to overlook Grasmere, the home of William Wordsworth. I didn't take this picture, but the view and weather were identical.

 
Hello everybody. I will definitely be lurking on this one and also available to take some turns occasionally if you guys/gals want/need me to. I don’t think I want to be in the rotation because as some of you guys saw in the Imperialist Romans, I am not the most reliable SG player and I would hate to slow down the game.

I would agree with research on pottery first. Granaries are always important, in just about any style of game. I think I would suggest CB over Bronzing as getting that early temple out in a culture game is important. In my experience, at Regent, you can usually get the Colossus without too much difficulty even if you delay it a little bit. Of course this all depends on who can be contacted and what can be traded for. Which leads me to Mad-bax’s point about trying to contact everyone so we can know when they initiate wonder builds, which will be very important. With Pangaea, that shouldn’t be too difficult with a few warriors and contact trading (do you need a certain tech to trade contacts, I can’t remember?). I’m not sure mapmaking is essential for this purpose.

As far as jumping the palace goes, I’m not sure about this. I must say that I have never really used this technique. There is something to be said for the two cpt (after doubling) generated by the palace. Also something I was just thinking about, can two cities be using the palace for a prebuild at the same time? If not, I don’t see much point in not using the capital as one of the two cities.

Anyways, just my thoughts do get some discussion going.

inudog
 
Off Topic:
Wow Bax, that is an amazing shot. I live within an hour's drive of Banff (Canada) in the Rockies and I am not used to seeing beautiful hills with little towns and nice green grass. Our mountains are, well, rocky and the only vegetation of note are thousands of pine trees! The Rockies are also beatiful, but in a completey different way.

inudog
 
@Mad: Congrats to your girls for making it to the top. My holidays where good too. We even got to do some hiking. The day before yesterday we walked the famous Samaria Gorge route. Very beautiful. We fretted about the kids because it's 16 km, and difficult going, but they did great. It's me who's so stiff I can't hardly move. :lol:

@Ted: Thanks, I welcome the opportunity to play this game with you and the others.

@Inudog: You're right, the Palace prebuild can only be done in one city and the Palace is a culture building. But you could still use the pre-build while the other city is building a Wonder. The biggest challenge will be to time it so, that both the cities will complete at the same turn. That's why we need to do some computation first (for which I'm normally much too lazy...). Maybe we should read the RBCiv reports of the Five Pillars, which was somewhat simular.
 
Hhhmmm, Mad-bax, all good points to discuss.
Incidentally, pondering too much on the first 20-40 turns is the reason why I was so late in my last two-three GOTMs (combined with a similar working schedule as yours -I had two major design reviews more or less at the same time...).

Also incidentally, welcome Space! Looks like I was being the only one so uneducated not to greet you immediately. Please, accept my most humble apologies :) (and thanks for using my "SSS" Trademark!).

See, I started writing this post, then I was stopped by a colleague and we spent half an hour talking -guess what- about hiking! But let me get back on topic.


Cities:
In fact, being able to use the Palace as a prebuild in only one city makes it less of a problem to have the Capital as one of the two culture cities.
This solution would still be less flexible, in that:
- we could only use the Palace prebuild in the second city.
- And, of course, we will not be able to use the free Palace jump.

The final game plan really depends on the territory; at any rate, city #2 is almost surely one of the two culture cities.
So, we can start aiming at getting city#2 (or, rather, the second settler) out as soon as possible, and then decide whether to use city #1 or #3 as the other culture city.

I'll throw down a couple of points that came to my mind: they may be pretty obvious, or plainly wrong -they are here just for the discussion:

- If the culture cities are 1 and 2, I would expect a slower growth / expansion (later workers - settlers, or Granaries in the first two cities). With 2 and 3, we would have 1 building right from the start; on the other hand, 3 may be operational well into the game.

- There may be a larger gap between 1 and 2, in terms of pop - production - starting turn of the first wonder than between 2 and 3.

We could try and predict which approach is better once we have explored the surroundings. As I said, I think the aim should be at getting the second settler out as early as possible. It would be interesting to compare results... (don't take it too seriously, though -It's just an idea that passed unchecked ;) ).


Timing:
Yes, but I don't think we will want to spend a lot of time calculating production etc. (it's not really my idea of 'fun', you know...).
I think we could start with a rough estimate of the number of turns required, then try to adjust the shields output as the building goes on. Also, I hope it's ok if they complete wonders within a few turns of each other...

We do need to have an idea of when the two cities will reach 20k, but I think we can start distributing improvements and wonders more or less equally, and then try to refine our predicted end date later in the game (might even try something on an Excel spreadsheet if I have time...).



Tech Path:
I don't think that MapMaking is so essential. For one thing, the AI almost always go for it once they have Writing. Then, Lighthouse only gives 2 culture points. Unless we are so good that we grab ALL Ancient Age wonders...

I think starting with Pottery is ok, then I don't know. I suspect we should choose it based on what wonders we are aiming at (hey, I never did this...).

Following the path to Monarchy could be good (open to discussion, as everything I say).
There are two wonders there, plus if we stay in Monarchy we can:
- spend the whole game at war with someone
- speed up tech in the Ancient Era with trade.
Of course, this means trading to Writing (or even Literature), with an ever more delicate prebuild for the Great Library.
Ideas?
 
In response to Timing:
I think the reason for finishing wonders on the same turn would be to break the cascade. For that reason, I think it will be case dependant, whether they need to finish on the same turn or can be a few turns apart.

I agree that the end date can be figured out later in the game when things are more established.
 
Top Bottom