MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [ptw]

[TedJackson]

Only managed 5 turns yesterday but I should be able to finish this evening

We've Mil Trad & Physics now & should have Magnetism soon. All quiet on the war front.


Ted

 

[Shevek]

I am a bit late to chip in as Ted is already playing.
So I keep it to "Excellent analysis, Ted."

I look forward to see your turn log.

 

[TedJackson]

After sleeping on it I decide to go into builder mode and try to prepare for the next player's war on Shimazu or Chosogabe. Of course there's the possibility that Mori will declare anyway so I'll investigate Alliances once we've got Cav.

Pre-turn
York Revenge switches to Lib (try to rush ASAP)
Kokomo switches to Temple - this might be a good bait city if we get into conflict with Takeda
Research 100% (2 turns @ -121gpt, 280gp) - see if that swing the balance of power militarily

Press button...
Wines to Chosogabe comes up for renewal - I decline
Naqoya Lib - Bank (increase commerce first)
Owase Walls - Explorer (might be useful to build a pillaging force)
Kumano Walls - Explorer
Koromositu Walls - Explorer
Gogury start Shakespeare's
Korea start Newton's

1 - 760AD
Worker tasks (heading back to our cores where possible)
Some troop movements
Research 90% (Mil Trad this turn)
There might be an opportunity to do a lux deal with Han next turn.
No deals or alliances available

IBT
Incense form Korea for Wines & Wool expires (Korea don't want to renew) - we cannot get them to part with Incense at any price so riots aplenty I'm afraid
Mori demand Dyes - I tell them to take a hike - they back down
Discover Mil Trad - Physics
Most of our major cities riot
New Lida Worker - Explorer
Jutsama Worker - Harbour
Mori start Newton's

2 - 770AD
Reduce research to Lone Scientist temporarily
we have 51gp in the bank and are making +316gpt
Looking at the lux trading situation i decide that I don't want to deal with Shimazu or Chosogabe. That leaves:
Gogury with Incense - they want Wool, Dyes + 3gpt
Han with Spices - they want Dyes + 13gpt
Korea - they want Wool, Wines + 17gpt for Incense
I take the Incense from Gogury but this means I no longer have Dyes available for trade with Han (Spices)
Spices is now at 42gpt - 10% Luxury tax only costs 40gpt so I pass on this deal (for the present)
Lux 10%

I start the long and arduous task of rationalising all our cities.
Hamamatsu needs Temple rushed then Market (rushed) then churn out Workers forever)
After all that we're making +320gpt
Worker tasks
No deals available but I might manage Physics for Mil Trad + some cash next turn from Gogury
Research Lone Scientist

IBT
Hikone Cav - Bank

3 - 780AD
Cav (Hikone) Heads East
Worker tasks
Bugger! Gogury have either researched or traded Mil Trad
Sign trade Embargo vs Mori with Takeda
Korea will pay 16gpt for Wines & Wool
Han will sell Spices for Dyes + 19gpt
Sell Wines & Wool to Korea (annoyed) for 16gpt (still annoyed)
Buy Spices from Han (annoyed) for Dyes + 19gpt (cheaper than 10% lux)
We can't get Physics from anyone at any price
Looking at the tech options I can get Physics in 4 turns @327gpt (1308gp, -5gpt deficit) or go Lone Scientist and wait to see what the cash buy price is. I decide on the Lone Scientist approach as this will give me a guide on future research spending and I can switch back to self research in 3 or 4 turns if necessary.
Incidentally I couldn't even include WM in any of the deals so our rep is rock bottom.
Lux 0%
Research 0%
Go through all our cities resetting specialists. Yawn
Kyoto stays with Lib (cultural pressure)
Hamamatsu stays with Temple - need to do something before turn 8 (growth & happiness) - presently on 2 clowns
Kobe stays with Lib (cultural pressure)
Yok Revenge stays with Lib (Takeda border)
Ise switches to Bank
MM Kukiyama for Market in 2
Koromo switches to Market (growth in 8, Market in 28 so needs rushing)
New Ise switches to Court
MM Suzuka to avoid starvation
Winegaki switches to Court
MM Tanabe to speed Aqueduct
Kitaku switches to Market
Kasugai switches to Court (good commerce potential)
New Hamamatsu switches to HArbour (won't grow without)
TehJay switches to Market (follow with Aqueduct)
Shakasani Switches to Market (Court to follow)
MM New Lida for growth
Toyotomi switches to Market
New Azuchi switches to Market
Moriyama-too switches to Market
New Nagoya stays with Lib (cultural pressure on Sas??o)
Moriyama-ku stays with Lib (cultural pressure on Niimi)
Pressure-1 switches to Lib (cultural pressure)
I chose commerce over science buildings as that gives us most flexibility in the short term.

IBT
Suzuka Cav - Lib
Bejing (Han) builds Smith's
Shimazu, Chosogabe start Bach's, Shakespeare's
Mori start Bach's, Shakespeare's, Newton's
Korea start Bach's, Newton's
Takeda start Bach's, Shakespeare's

4 - 790AD
Worker tasks
Move Cav East
No deal on Physics (741gp)

IBT
Kukiyama Market - Lib
Ogaki Court - Market
Gogury start Bach's, Shakespeare's
Kunamoto (Shimazu) build Shakespeare's
Yatsushiro (Shimazu) build Newton's

5 - 800AD
Worker tasks
Buy Physics from Korea for 926gp (saving almost 400gp over what it would have cost to self research)
Switch research to Magnetism @ Lone Scientist (+382gpt) - the best we could manage ourselves is 5 turns @ 329gpt (1645)

IBT
Azuchi Cav - Bank
Yaizu Cav - Court
Shizuoka Temple - Market
Moriyama-too Market - Cav
The people love me - add some obelisks
Han start Bach's
Han establish embassy with us

6 - 810AD
Worker tasks
Cav head East

IBT
Winegaki Court - Lib
Yokkachi Cav - Market

7 - 820AD
Worker tasks
Looks as if we'll be able to buy ToG next turn - I could get "Close to a deal" this turn

IBT
Gogury want to trade TM - I winkle 5gp out of them
Kyoto Lib - Market (toss up between Market & Aqueduct here)
Ise Bank - Uni
Handa Cav - Court
Toyotomi Market - Harbour

8 - 830AD
Worker tasks
Cav East
Hamamatsu hires Clown
Buy ToG from Korea for WM + 1083gp (would have cost 1645 to research)

IBT
Komaki Aqueduct - Cav
Pressure-1 Lib - Harbour
Yokohama (Takeda) builds Bach's

9 - 840AD
Worker tasks
Cav East
New Azuchi hires taxman
Buy Magnetism from Gogury for ToG + 153gp
Switch research to Steam (in case of a war on two fronts & production bonus)

10 - 850AD
Worker tasks

Notes & save follow...


Ted

 

[TedJackson]

Tech Status (ignoring optional techs)
Takeda: up Nationalism & Steam (furious, 0gp)
Mori: level (furious, 8gp)
Shimazu: up Nationalism & Steam (annoyed, 100gp) - we could buy Ivory for WM + 45gpt
Chosogabe: up Nationalism & Steam (annoyed, 5gp) - we could buy Silks for WM + 47gpt
Korea: up Nationalism (annoyed, 566gp)
Gogury: level (polite, 9gp)
Han: up Nationalism & Steam (annoyed, 2852gp)
Baekje: down Chemistry & Navigation (cautious, 8gp)
Kuroda: down Astronomy & Chemistry (furious, 0gp)

Ongoing Deals
Takeda: Embargo vs Mori (13 turns)
Mori: none
Shimazu: they give 20gpt for Wool (5 turns)
Chosogabe: they give 18gpt for Dyes (5 turns)
Korea: they give 16gpt for Wines & Wool (13 turns)
Gogury: they give Incense for Wool, Dyes + 3gpt (12 turns)
Han: they give Spices for Dyes + 19gpt (13 turns)
Baekje: none
Kuroda: they give 6gpt for Peace treaty (expires at end of turn)

Military Strength
Takeda: we are weak (democracy) - but upgrading to Cav will probably change this to average
Mori: we are average
Shimazu: we are average (democracy)
Chosogabe: we are strong (democracy)
Korea: we are strong (democracy)
Gogury: we are strong (democracy)
Han: we are average (democracy)
Baekje: we are strong (republic)
Kuroda: we are strong (republic)

Economic & Trade Status
We have 949gp in the bank and an income of +415gpt
Self researching Steam would take 7 turns @ 491gpt (3,437gp), -173gpt. Depending on how fast the other AI research/buy Steam, we should be able to buy in 4/5 turns from Korea who is our favoured trading partner due to location & strength relative to Han.

By trading with Korea & Gogury we strengthen them against the Han and aren't directly improving any of our short term opponents (Takeda, Mori, Shimazu & Chosogabe).

Strategy
I chose builder mode for my turns and that decision is nearing payback time. I chose Markets, followed by Courthouses (where beneficial) to improve our economy first as this will give us some flexibility as we switch over to self research in the medium term. I would hope that the next player would complete this process and then start adding Banks.

I built Libraries where they would exert cultural pressure on the Mori & Shimazu towns encroaching on our territory and the next player can add more Libraries to increase our research & culture.

We need to add in some Universities to our core cites. Having one or two under construction at any one time would seem to be about right.

Trading our way to tech parity seems to be working quite well (see Economic & Trade Status report above) but we'll soon reach the point where we need to switch over to self research.

I'm ashamed that I didn't spot the luxury monopolies earlier as this factor totally changes our military objectives. We should be aiming to control those monopolies as a priority and our future plans should be centred on capturing them as efficiently & quickly as possible.

Chosogabe is our prime military target but the best initial target is at the Eastern end of the island. This approach would require that we dispose of the Mori first and that would take valuable time.

Assembling a task force to land South of Imabari (Grassland) would seem the fastest way to get started but we will need Cannon (and Arquebusier to defend them) to bring the population down to manageable levels. One approach would be to build the Military Academy and then a couple of armies. Alternatively upgrading existing Otomo and shipping them in large numbers would probably work just as well. For the record Otomo cost 80gp each to upgrade and Agashiru 60gp.

Once we have a secure foothold then we should be able to overwhelm the Chosogabe quite quickly with the right mix of troops (plenty of Cannon & defensive units along with Cav to deliver the final blow ).

Once we have disposed of the Chosogabe we can turn our attention to the big prize, Shimazu. With two luxury monopolies it really is the jewel in the crown.

In the meantime, of course, there are the Mori & Takeda to consider. Personally, I would just keep the Mori sweet until Shimazu is ours then dispose of them at our leisure.

The Takeda are the fly in the ointment. We might be lucky and they won't make any aggressive moves but we need to have a strong defence prepared for them if they turn nasty.

I haven't upgraded any units, preferring to reach tech parity first, so that task is probably best left until we're ready to invade Chosogabe.

The save is > here <


Ted

 

[barbslinger]

I learn something everytime I read this forum. Great job on the techs. The libraries I started and your completing will start to help down the line. I agree with your assessment of the situation. Looks like near tech parity soon. We'll have to start peeling some workers off soon to get ready for rails. An E-W line to cover both fronts should be first, then dual core development. That crown jewel will be nice once we lay our hands into it.

 

[TedJackson]

Forgot the score

Firaxis Score: 1598


Ted

 

[Shevek]

Got it and will play tonight.
I have no time really now to study the turnlog but hopefully will find some time during luch break.

 

[Shevek]

Objectives:
1. Continue Oda Economy Recovery program
2. Start to build up military (cavs/cannons/arquebusiers) for next war
3. Keep Takeda and Mori happy and off our back side


The save looks good and our empire starts to recover from the long wars
MM a few cities (esp. where we cannot grow any further before aquaduct get mm'ed for shields/commerce)
swap Azuchi from bank to court as it looses too much to corruption (bank only increases uncorrupted revenue, I believe)
enter

IT
Kukiyama library -> arqubusier
Nagahama market -> court
Morayama-ku 'duct -> court
Kita-ku market -> court

1. 860 AD
worker moves
steam cannot be bought yet

IT
Azuchi court -> cav
Koromo riots
Suzuka library -> cav
Tanabe 'duct -> market
Kasugai court -> cannon
Kwanaka library -> cannon

2. 870 AD
rush temple in Hamamatzu (24gp)
Koromo gets taxman
Korea, Han, Choso and Shimazo have all now medicine, no deal possible, cannot get steam either

IT
Hamamatzu temple -> library
New Lida explorer -> explorer
Moriyama-ku library -> harbor
Takeda build Universal suffrage
rush harbor in Pressure 1 (64gp)

3. 88 AD
worker moves
Takeda has now obtained medicine as well
buy medicine from Korea for 1745gp
medicine to Gogu for economics, music theory, 6gpt, 45gp
Mori would only offer WM + 15g (they must be close to research it), no trade
cannot get any gpt deal on steam (not even 400gpt would do it)
I guess it was stupid to buy medicine at this point

IT
TehJay market -> cav
Pressure 1 harbor -> cannon kublai
Han and Shimazu building US

4. 890 AD
rush court in Handa (80gp)
rush market in New Azuchi (120gp)
rush harbor in Kuki Isle (84gp), Kuki Isle gets taxman for 1 turn

IT
Nagoya bank -> cav
Kobe library -> arquebusier
Handa court -> cav
Kuki Isle harbor -> temple
New Azuchi market -> cav
Moriyama-too 'duct -> cav
Shimazu have established embassy
Chosogabe and Koreans build US

5. 900 AD
worker moves
I still cannot buy anything for gpt
we make now 457gpt and it is not enough for steam (457gpt + 1036g, all we have, only gets us close to a deal)
I wonder if I should start self research, we could get steam in 6 turns at -135g (cost 3552g)
we are down at least nationalism, steam power, industrialisation
next turn our lux deals with Shimazu and Chosogabe will expire, maybe Shimazu will part with steam with a lux thrown in

Even though nothing much happened the turns take lots of time.
I hope I can finish my turns tomorrow.

 

[TedJackson]

I could only buy techs for cash on the barrel, even just adding WM on either side of the deal would make it "Never accept".

It should be cheaper just to run at 0% or Lone Scientist saving the income for 4 or 5 turns then cash buying rather than self research. Obviously once all the Libs and a few Unis are up & running then we should switch to self research.


Ted

 

[barbslinger]

If we can snag that it would bring us out of our tech slump. Until then cash on the barrelhead and more uni's

 

[denyd]

I just read the last couple of pages trying to get a feel for where we are (I checked and my last turn was 11/24).

It looks like my turns should concentrate on adding more infrastructure (banks & universities) and adding a few more offensive units (cannon & cavalry) to the Mori border & a few more defensive items(riflemen & walls) to the Takeda border.

Try to get Steam Power & Electricity (if Shevek doesn't already get them) and head for Scientific Method. Select our most productive city for the TOE pre-build (thx Barbslinger for that). Once Steam Power is available, hook up coal (please let there be some), and rail our most productive reqions.

Since it looks like we've got quite a ways to go, I should let you all know I'll be off line from 12/26-12/30 for a family vacation. I thought we would be done by then when I signed up, but that doesn't look likely now.

 

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by denyd
Once Steam Power is available, hook up coal (please let there be some), and rail our most productive reqions.

Hoping and praying it's next to some Iron for Iron Works


Ted

 

[denyd]

Ted,

You hit the key to winning this game on the nose a couple of posts ago and you probably didn't know just how right you are.

Let me say it all in just one little sentence:

OIL IS FOUND ONLY ON TUNDRA AND DESERT!!!

There is none of either on our island (if memory is correct, no access to game while at work). Only the two small islands S of ours have any desert and only the Han have any tundra.

What we need to do is to be able to get close to tech parity, build a small invasion fleet for that second island, and hold onto the island we took for the SP earlier. We'll control the northern oil!!

Getting the Han as an ally would prevent any of our neighbors from trading for oil. Tanks, planes & battleships against infantry & ironclads are battles we can win!!!


Deny

 

[TedJackson]

Denyd,

I've just had a quick look at the game. You're substantially correct. There are only the desert islands in the north but there are about 20 desert & tundra tiles on the Southern continent.

So Refining becomes more important to enable us to locate the Oil deposits.

Rubber could be anywhere but Cracker might have denied Oil to the North and Rubber to the South, just to make things even more complicated

I guess press on with the planned assaults on Chosogabe & Shimazu to increase our commercial power-base, then turn on the Mori if they have Oil. We'll probably know before they do.


Ted

 

[denyd]

Ted,

One more thing I was thinking about.

I noticed on a picture you posted on 11/23, that is we added 2 cities (1 SE of Winegaki & 1 NW Kasugai) we could create a 'Panama Canal' effect and be able to move our fleet quicker from one side of the island to the other.

Have you ever tried this?

Deny

PS: I've had way too much time on line today waiting for a new server to be installed on our network so that I can get back to work

 

[TedJackson]

Sadly, there's too much land around Winegaki as you can see from the image below

Good thought though


Ted

 

[barbslinger]

I know that it is usual standard to get military rai.lnet up asap but I feel we should do this balanced with an east - west line to get troops to either front. Of course rail the TOE prebuild but E-W may be crucial.

 

[denyd]

Wouldn't this work? (cities on the red X's)

 

[TedJackson]

You can't found a city directly next to another city so SE Winegaki is a no-no which stops the idea dead in the water.

The cross in the North (or 1 NE) will allow boats to pass from the Ocean to the lake & vice versa but there's no way out at the South end of the lake.


Ted

 

[TedJackson]

Barbslinger: here's our F1 screen from the end of my turn (sorted by production).

Unless things have changed significantly then the pre-build will surely be in Ise so railing the from the core out to the borders would seem both logical & natural.


Ted