Medieval European Mod II Preview

[The Last Conformist]

The list for the basic (random & clean Europe map) version is:
Northern group: England, Scotland, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden
European group: France, Burgundy, Castile, Portugal, Germany, Bohemia, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Rus, Novgorod
Mediterranean group: Aragon, Italy, Sicily, Venice
Byzantine/Balkan group: Byzantines, Bulgars, Serbia
Middle-Eastern group: Armenia, Khazaria, Turks, Tatars, Abbasids, Fatimids, Cordova, Almohads

I'd suggest making Rus and Novgorod either Northern (more accurate for the Viking Age) or Byzantine/Balkan (more accurate for Late Medieval).

 

[The Last Conformist]

Here's a map of the Seljuqid sultanate in ~1080:

At this time the Seljuqs, at least in their own opinion, ruled the entire middle east, but a remnant Abbasid Caliphate in Iraq would survive the Seljuq domination, and the various Turkish groups that took over much of Anatolia after Manzikert were only loosely under central control.

I suspect Seljuq control in Arabia was pretty theoretical, but I don't actually know anything about that.

 

[P-51D]

Almohads are from the southern Spain / Morocco area

I thought they were called Moors.

Here's a map of the Seljuqid sultanate in ~1080:

At this time the Seljuqs, at least in their own opinion, ruled the entire middle east, but a remnant Abbasid Caliphate in Iraq would survive the Seljuq domination, and the various Turkish groups that took over much of Anatolia after Manzikert were only loosely under central control.

I suspect Seljuq control in Arabia was pretty theoretical, but I don't actually know anything about that.

No, the Seljuq (or Seljuk) sultans retained a steady control when the caliphs were loosing their power.... and then the Mongols came (1258-ish) and it was hell in a handbasket after that. (Until the Ottomans took control in 1281)
Oh and that Abbasid remnant, it was Seljuk by the time the Mongols came... I think........ I'll get back to you on that...

Found it:

 

[Keroro]

I thought they were called Moors.

Good God man, don't quote me from two months back. Anyway, I think that moor was a generic or racial term, wheras Almohad was a political term. It's like the difference between European and French these days. If you're French then you're European, but being European doesn't make you French.

 

[P-51D]

Good God man, don't quote me from two months back. Anyway, I think that moor was a generic or racial term, wheras Almohad was a political term. It's like the difference between European and French these days. If you're French then you're European, but being European doesn't make you French.

Technically some people didn't even know what French was (Peasants) they would identify with the Lord they were working for or the region.
"I am of Lombardy/Saxony/Aragon" instead of "I'm French/German/Spanish"
(Until the rise of nation states, of course)

 

[embryodead]

@P-51D
As Keroro said, Moors are the Arab/Berber inhabitants of North Africa and Al-Andalus, while Almohads were a dynasty of caliphs. And as you yourself have said, in the Middle Ages, the kingdoms, not "nationality" defined people and politics. Therefore, "Moors" in the mod are represented by Almoravids/Almohads in North Africa and the Umayyad Caliphate of Cordova (and Sevilla taifa in the 11c scenario) in Al-Andalus.

@TLC
Thanks, it's a good suggestion, though the only real difference in this case is the look of the cities (and cathedrals etc.). Because of this the Byzantine set won't do, but the northern maybe? Here is how the cities look like (Euro/Northern/Mediterranean/Byzantine/Middle-Eastern):

(gfx by Aion, mrtn, RedAlert, Yoda Power and me)


Regarding the Seljuks & friends. The last Abbasid caliph was killed by Hulagu Khan, that's 13c , although he had little actual power by that time. But back to the point, the scenario starts in 1075 so TLC's map is more in place here. Also, 1075 is before Syria and parts of Anatolia were conquered. But I guess I should give Rayy to Seljuks, though I don't want to (they're just getting too big / overpowered in game).

 

[The Last Conformist]

I thought they were called Moors.


No, the Seljuq (or Seljuk) sultans retained a steady control when the caliphs were loosing their power.... and then the Mongols came (1258-ish) and it was hell in a handbasket after that.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with?

In 1075, the Seljuq Sultan was theoretically a vassal of the Caliph, but in practice his master. From ~1100 the Seljuq empire disintegrated into independent bits, but the Abbasids held on to the caliphate, if largely as dependents of various Turkic princes.

To apply this to Civ, the scenario is likely to develop more historically if the Mideast is split up into several civs than if there's a huge monolithic Seljuq empire to bulldoze the rest of the world. Just imagine that the Abbasids are vassals of the Seljuqs during the early years.

Edit: Re: cities, I think the northern would fit the Russkis better.

 

[embryodead]

A little preview of a possibly unique feature of the mod, vassal states (it's not the best name but it involves vassal/conquered states, crown succession etc.).

First off, two screenshots. These show the "surface" of the idea, which at least create an illusion of capturing actual kingdoms / claiming the crowns, not just adding new cities to your kingdom. But there's more to this than phony wonders, of course - more on that in the next post.

 

[embryodead]

Now, for the inner workings, I'll just show the pedia screenshot explaining how it works:

CliffNotes: you can build ForbiddenPalace-like wonders only in conquered capitals. You can have several of those, but your vassals are determined by the form of government you're in. And if you can't claim a title of a king/caliph, you can at least claim a title of duke/emir, which has much smaller effect.

This way, a conquered capital won't be just another city, but a real capital. A common misunderstanding is that it doesn't matter where the FP is built, that it just reduces overall corruption. While, it doesn't work like in Vanilla/PTW, it still reduces corruption first and foremost in neighboring cities (except for communal governments). It's also cumulative. I have to thank Alexman for his research. It's an old thread, but I've missed it earlier, since it wasn't in C&C forum

I tried different settings and played with lowered Optimal City Number in order to make it balanced (FP increases OCN by 37.5%, or 100% for communism), to eventually limit the specific vassal states to specific governments, and I think it makes sense. On a standard map you'll usually be able to build 1-3 FPs in the conquered capitals (it works on random maps as well, the phony wonders have some hidden flags to encourage the AI to build them).

 

[LMR]

Very clever idea

 

[Mirc]

That's a GREAT idea. But now that you shared it, it won't be unique for too long.

 

[Red Door]

What an amazing idea.

 

[Lord Cooper]

i honestly dont quite get it. what actuel advantages does it provide? its still just another city under your control right? errmm. im so lost lol.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Heh! ED, I was thinking of doing SOMETHING like this in an updated Napoleonic mod (one that includes E. N. America and if possible the rest of N. Am and Mex, to reflect the machinations of French, Spanish and English battles in their new world colonies (not to mention that Mexico and other Latin Am countries' revolutions were the result, in part, of Spain's defeat at the hands of the French), as well as the young USA stomping the Barbary Corsairs (while the rest of Europe tried to just pay them off... now how does that situation seem familliar )

Anyways, I was going to have a GW in every nation's capitol that would auto-produce that country's guard infantry so that whoever conquered the country would gain access to that nation's UU, sort of how it often worked in RL (i.e. when Scotland was merged with England, the Scottish Black Watch became a British unit and when Prussia conquered poland, the Polish Uhlans became an elite Prussian unit, etc).

...but that whole scenario is waiting for me to get finished with the least popular mod on the forums.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

It's a really neat idea; shame it doesn't have any real benefits though.

 

[embryodead]

It's a really neat idea; shame it doesn't have any real benefits though.

Not sure what to think of this comment It's not just eye-candy, if you have read till the end I see a clear benefit, the gameplay is different, which is the purpose of the mod, after all - instead of having 1 or 2 FPs that you can build anywhere, you can have several FPs but only in conquered capital cities. It simulates the Middle Ages monarchies, in which whole Kingdoms changed hands and became parts of another, but still retained their royal status and had their local administration (England, Scotland, Bohemia, Novgorod to name a few). The gameplay change was rather drastic which is the reason I played with OCN and limited the amout of FPs with governments - to not make it too easy.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Not sure what to think of this comment It's not just eye-candy, if you have read till the end I see a clear benefit, the gameplay is different, which is the purpose of the mod, after all - instead of having 1 or 2 FPs that you can build anywhere, you can have several FPs but only in conquered capital cities. It simulates the Middle Ages monarchies, in which whole Kingdoms changed hands and became parts of another, but still retained their royal status and had their local administration (England, Scotland, Bohemia, Novgorod to name a few). The gameplay change was rather drastic which is the reason I played with OCN and limited the amout of FPs with governments - to not make it too easy.

Ahh...I see - and apologise for any mild offence which was unintentionally caused . I amend my original comment to "a splendid idea that I wish I'd thought of myself "

 

[Keroro]

"a splendid idea that I wish I'd thought of myself "

That about covers it for me too. It looks like it takes quite a bit of editor work to set it up, but for a mod like this it will be well worth it since it fits the era so well.

This mod looks better and better.

 

[The Last Conformist]

This looks a really neat idea.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

So whens it coming out lol?