Medieval - Renaissance Mod

Fireb said:
You can set the cultural expansion thresholds higher. Borders take a bit longer to expand of course, but the main effect is to make a cultural victory more difficult.
Wouldn't it be easier and effect gameplay a lot less adversely just to set the cultural victory requirements a lot higher?? If you want to make cultural victory more difficult, I don't see why you should butcher the expansion of the civs' cultural borders and influence. The main effect of increasing the requirements of a cultural victory would be to make cultural victory much harder; the main effect of making cities' culture expand slower would be to make cities' culture expand slower. :rolleyes:
 
I've been personally setting it so I need more than 3 cities at a certain cultural level to achieve Culture Victory. Either that or the value needed to win as Kodoma stated is a better option than tinkering with cultural borders.
 
Maybe make it so you have to have 6 or 8 cities at a high culture level in order to achieve victory. I think that would be a better way of preventing a cultural victory then limiting a cities abilit to grow its borders.

I also still want to make a cultural victory a possibility.

Kushan
 
Does anyone here have any experience with Python scripting? I have thought of a few ideas, that I believe will take alot of scripting.

I was thinking of maybe adding somesort of wonder, it would affect only the Christian Kingdoms, like the UN in the current game the leader would be able to pass "resolutions". For example, maybe as the leader of the English, you are put into this position, once elected you could call for say Crusade against the Arabians (or any other non Christian Kindgom), then all that factions would declare was on that faction. Unlike the UN these resolutions wouldnt be voted on, you would just enact them. This position would be appointed to say, the faction the holds the most influence (culture) or maybe the one with the strongest military, or a varietyof combinations.

Unfortunately I dont have the skills with scripting to do something like this, so if anyone who knows Python want to attempt to try htis please let me know.

Does anyone know if its possible to rename culture? I would like to change culture to Influence. Your influence would be made up of a variety of factors, including culture. It would basically represent the same thing culture does now, but I feel it is a better name for the period then culture.

Kushan

Edit: Ok, as of now I am going to stop thinking up ideas and finish the outline for the first version. Once this is done, I will begin modding, hopefully sometime early this week.
 
What does everyone think about including Mylons Inquisitor Mod? The ability to purge religions in a city could be very usefull in the timer period.

Kushan
 
I think it's an option that should have been included in the original game. Firaxis obviously felt religion was important, but didn't include inquisition. Go figure.
 
Some things you might keep in mind:

"Although indigenous American civilizations boasted great cities and many other accomplishments, they lacked some key advantages that allowed the Spanish to conquer them. Four of them were:

Gunpowder: This technological advance had spread across Asia to Europe, but did not cross the oceans until the Spaniards brought it with them.

Iron: Although several American cultures achieved splendid metalworking by the sixteenth century, none had learned to make iron weapons.

The horse: The closest thing to a horse in sixteenth-century America was the llama. But nobody would mistake a llama for a warhorse.

Immunities: This was probably the Indians' biggest disadvantage. Europeans brought diseases that hadn't crossed the ocean before. The Indians had no biological defenses against them."

World History For Dummies
By Peter Haugen

And, while the Mongolians had metal axes...

"Almost all sources agree that the Mongol soldier wore a fur cap with earflaps, a fur-lined or felt coat, thick stockings and soft leather or iron helmet and a lamellar cuirass, usually of hardened leather pieces laced with rawhide tongs. Only the élite would own iron lamellar laced with silk thread. An armoured flap that protected the right arm would according to some contemporary observers, be unlaced while shooting so as not to encumber the man as he pulled his bowstring. Swords were again reserved for the elite. They were not always curved sabres, as is so often thought, though even straight swords would normally be single-edged. A decorated cap and sword belt were worn as insignia of rank or command. Small battle-axes and maces were used by some Mongols, while many spears had hooks to unhorse a foe. Lassos of horsehair rope were widely employed, but the main weapon remained, of course, the bow."

Warriors of Eurasia
By Gorelik
 
The Nuh Uh, I was actually going to make it so none of the American factions, and to an extent the non European factions, unable to train gunpowder units. Yes the chinese invented it, but they never really used it to its full potential like the Europeans did.

I've decided on the map. I am going to go with a map of the whole earth. Reason being, I want the player to be constantly thinking about expansion, and in the early game survival. With Europe going to be crowded, I want the player to want to expand outside of Europe, first by pushing back the Arabs in the "Crusade" period and then survibing the mongols, then finally racing to expand into the new world.

As the Chinese, Japanese, and Indians, Your goal is survival. Survive the Mongol invasions, then work on defending against the ever expanding Europeans. Same goes for the Aztec, and the American factions, your weapons will be inferior to the Europeans. Let them get a foot hold and it will be very hard to push them back.

If the world map doesnt work out, then I will look at changing it in another version. But I really think this is for the best.

Kushan
 
Things are going pretty good actually. Havent started modding yet unfortunately. Some good news though, the lost units mod inlcude a fully working Trebuchet, I am going to see if Frontbrecher will let me include it, along with the Privateer and Ship of the Line units. The Privateer has some obvious uses, the SotL will be renamed, and will represent the combat ships of the period. They will also be able to carry units.

Kushan
 
Another important quality of the Mongols is that their army was (as far as I know) near a completely mounted one.
 
The lack of guns and horses was not particularly crucial to the defeat of the Americans.. or rather, the lack of the warhorse was not particularly crucial.

After all, a Spaniard could expect to get off one shot at a range between 50 yards and 100 yards depending on whether they were using a musket or an arquebus... without much accuracy and then have to reload again, which would take 30 seconds. A human running at average speed could definitely close the gap and kill their opponent in the time it would take to reload. And that's assuming they're running through an open field... if the natives managed to get a jump on the Spaniards... well... a musket can make for a good club.

And given how much the Aztecs out-numbered the Spaniards, even if they managed to get off more than one volley, it would've done them little good.

The real advantage to the gun during this time period is that they required less skill to operate than bows, arrows, atl-atls and javelins. All in all, a musketeer or arquebusier was far more expendable than an archer.

As for the horse, there have been relatively few times when heavy cavalry was really effective, and that had more to do with the fact that at that time, it was a lot harder for kingdoms to field larger armies... so they resorted to horsemen. Horse archers/gunpowder cavalry are much better, but they also have the disadvantage of being perched on top a 1100 pound target... Although, I will admit that shock cavalry could disperse the native's skirmishers fairly well assuming they survived long enough to actually hit their targets, but a lot of good it would do them in the Andes, the jungles of central America or the forests of Virginia.

As for the lack of iron... militarily-speaking, its not that important. The Spaniards reported that the Aztec's atl-atls could easily pierce their armor at the same range as their muskets. Their swords weren't able to parry like a European sword, but that's what they had shields for. And even the arrows of the North American natives was sufficient to pierce exposed flesh, and their clubs and axes could certainly do pretty well too. By the time something better would be needed, it would make sense in the scenario if they'd be able to trade for it... Play one European nation against another.

Imagine if the Aztecs survived long enough for the English to start selling them arms to combat the Spaniards...

Ultimately, the downfall of the Americans will be due to disease and economics. Focus on those two issues. The North American tribes couldn't replace their losses fast enough while the Europeans could... and that was because they lacked things like draft animals, iron tools (not weapons), had had certain cultural traits/traditions holding them back from rapidly adapting to more sophisticated forms of agriculture and industry.

So disease, as has been mentioned is important, and I would say is in fact, the most important thing. Disease alone killed far more than any armies could've. But after the initially shock of that, it should be a resistance to change and political unity that ought to be the source of doom for the Native Americans.

If the Aztecs or Inca manage to survive the initial Holocaust, however, they will be in a good position to adopt certain technologies, utilize captured animals and turn things around for themselves.
 
Nuh Uh said:
Another important quality of the Mongols is that their army was (as far as I know) near a completely mounted one.

Yea, as far as I know they were. The only reason for the warrior and archer units is to give them something to garrison cities with. Thats all. Just think of them as unmouted units, who are scrambling out of bed as their camp is being attacked :undecide:

Kushan
 
I've been contemplating a similar mod idea myself, but due to various real life limitations I figure I won't have the time to flesh it out myself, I'm quite happy Kushan's having a similar idea and actually dedicating the effort towards it.

A few comments though.

With all due respect, rather than having a huge ambitious project, I'd recommend confining the scope a bit in terms of time and space.

By time, I mean confining it to specified eras, Medieval - Renaissance for example, instead of spanning it all the way beyond Renaisance.

By space, partly in relation to the confines of time, I think the scenario would be a lot fun already if we cover Eurasia (with the map a little off Spain in the west and a little off Japan in the east, for example)

Clearly confining your scope of your mod/scenario would let you focus on more details of the game, and would hopefully cut down loading times of the mod/scenario (which I would consider just as important as the content of the scenario; gameplay would be much diluted by the loading time of the game and the waiting times between turns).

Also, my faithful advice would be to equally spread your focus onto other civilizations as well, instead of focusing entirely on western civs. I guess it would be better if civ units were really balanced out and having a good fair fight instead of a one-sided fight. Flavor units also add more fun to the game. This is a rather a matter of technique in balancing and is at your discretion.

Rhye obviously did a great job in balancing back in Civ3. Maybe you would like to take that as a reference.

On the Poland issue, I recon there are "minor civ's" in CIV4, maybe that would help solve the problem.

I have four ideas which would radically affect gameplay though, but I thought they might suit this mod/scenario very much. Please feel free to adopt them, I'd serious like them to be implemented in this mod or other mods.

No cutting down forests/jungles. It just feels better this way in a medieval background.

No Settlers and No pillaging of cities. In a scenario of this scope, it would be best if cities were static, for gameplay and historic placement reasons. This would probably be agreeable.

Static borders. For real geographic and historic reasons. This would involve the culture problem that would require resolving. However, this would likely give the game considerable amounts of detail. Foreseeing technical issues, such as the loss of culture after claiming a city, I expect a lot of objection on this one.

No building of *new* roads. By this I mean cities are to be connected "as set" by the modder. Roads are to be for connecting cities and transferring troops, but having them directly affecting warfare is kind of ridiculous. I've always been pissed at how the Sahara is covered in roads/railroads somewhere in the middle of the game. I would imagine warfare much more strategic and tactical if units (including defending units) were slowed down to two or three squares each turn, especially in uninhabited terrain. Of course, this idea would involve a lot of technical issues in implementation (such as the possibility of the AI's pillaging that would be permanent in a game) and would be most objectionable. I'd like to see some debate on this one though.

Thats about it for now.
Good luck on your mod!
 
My current problem is: I dont know how to link a specific map to a mod.

I have searched the existing pre-built mods that have there own custom map, none of them have a map file saved within them that I can find, nor a reference to the map they use. Anyone have any ideas?

XanderLee: Yes I am limiting the eras to only the Medieval and very early Renaissance (The Age of Discovery). So no space race, no diplomacy victories.

For the initial version, I am going to use the world map, just because I already have it chosen. If it turns out that people prefer the more focused map, then I can change.

Thanks for the ideas.

Kushan
 
Thinkin' that this is supposed to be the timeframe between 1000-1500 AD...
About Scandinavia... You should call them just that and give them a viking uu that starts out as being almost unbalanced in it's power, but will also be made obsolete by the second or forth tech. This giving them a tiny window of opportunity to conquer a (few?) city(s), before they crumble in importance and are forced to just try to stay alive without beeing swallowed by the then greater european powers.
This would, i think, mirror their role pretty accurate in the given timeframe.

Don't you think?
 
Something like a strenght 4 warrior with amphibious promotion, wich would be made obsolete by any beefed up archer or metal-wielding unit just a few techs around the corner.
Then for the rest of the game, the tiny, cold lands of scandinavia... having no more uu to look forward to, but a massive metal and timber (and so on) deposit that everybody else would like to get their hands on... would have to fend off germans, russians etc. for the rest of the game.
All far superior in power.

Could make for a real diplomatic challenge...
 
Like majk-iii, I find the idea of using UUs aggressively to make a civilization powerful to be an excellent idea.

However, I have some doubts as to wether the europeans are going to be able to rise to supremacy as it is. To me, it sounds like they will rather be fighting among themselves until one or two powers dominate the continent. All in all, not a very promising picture.

To more historically reflect the developments inside Europe, you may want to:

-Make all European cities start with walls, and most with castles. This should make conquest within Europe itself difficult before gunpowder arrives, and even then, it's difficult to use muskets for city assaults (due to their lack of city assault promotions). Consider making walls indestructible upon conquest.

-Have plentiful resources in Europe. With many small civs located there, they desperately need it to keep their cities happy and healthy. Create many resources next to each other to encourage trading.

-Make wildly overpowered UUs! This enables all the civs to shine for a short period, which will basically be their best chance at expanding, and then cling on to their new holdings or be pushed back again.

-Ideally, your mod should incorporate some form of technology spread, in which inferior civilizations will pick up tech points from their advanced neighbors. This is probably going to be the only way to offset the dramatic advantage the Chinese are bound to get in terms of production and tech. I know this idea has been voiced before too, but currently, noone seems to have found a way to implement it properly.
 
I have actually been thinking about XanderLee's suggestion for the map. I have been debating it in my head alot. So I am going to lay out the arguments for both the world and Europe/Asia Maps, and want everyones opinion on what one to use.

World Map:
Pros:
- With Europe only having 2-3 cities per European faction, the European faction will be forced to expand to survive, thus leading to the Crusades against the Arabians, and eventually the race to discover the New World. Losing a city early could be the end of the game.
- Allows for a wide variety of "major" powers during the period, with alot of room to expand (with the exception of Europe.)
- Mod eras can go into the early Age of Discovery, and the race to discover the new world.
Cons:
- Doesnt allow for minor factions in Europe
- Dont get alot of smaller, but strategically important cities
- Not a whole lot of cities in Europe, 2-3 per faction at the start.

Europe-Asia Map:
- Map from the west coast of Spain to the East Coast of Japan
Pros:
- Alot more factions in Europe, Europe will still be crowded but will have alot more smaller but no less imprtant factions.
- More focused map for the Crusades, then a world map. Alot more smaller cities, leading to more sieges and battles.
- Losing one city early wont lead to lsoing the game.
Cons:
- Dont really have the race to discover the new world (but thats not really the point of the game, the Middle Ages is.)

Those are my arguments for both. After thinking about I am in favor of the more focused map. Originally I wanted for the mod to go into the early age of discovery, but after thinking about it I think it would be better just to stick with a more focused map, and go into the early gunpowder era.

Kushan

Edit: I have found that Strombringer has created a map of the revised area. Resources will need to be done, but the map area looks good.
 
Ok I am going to use the Europe-Asia map by Strormbringer Located Here.

I think I have also found a way to link maps to mods, all you have to do is load the mod, then enter the map editor and edit the map. Hopefully this should work.

New factions list:
FACTIONS (21):
> European Powers:

- Kingdom of France
- Kingdom of Leon (Spain)
- Kingdom of Castile (Spain)
- Kingdom of England
- Holy Roman Empire (Germany)
- Norman Princapalities (Southern Italy)
- Papal States (Rome)
- Kingdom of Poland
- Kingdom of Hungary
- Kingdom of Croatia
- Kingdom of Servia
- Russia
- Byzantine Empire
- Kalmar Union
> Africa:
- Dominion of the Moors
- Califate of Cairo
> Central Asia:
- Arabians (Dominion of the Seljuk Turks)
- Mongols
> East Asia:
- China
- Japan
- India

NOTE: Out of the 21 factions alot of the smaller kingdoms in Europe will only have one city at the start (Kingdom of Servia, Papal States, Crostia, etc). This number is subject to change, depending on performance issues.

Kushan
 
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