Medieval Warfare Guide

dankok8

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These days, I looked through the Strategy Articles on the forum and realized that there is no guide to Medieval warfare. There is a lot on early strategy which is the most important, but many players lose focus in the Middle Ages (sometimes myself as well).

This is arguably the most dangerous era and most of my lost games could be pinpointed to poor play around this time in the game assuming I didn't make silly early mistakes. Production is relatively low still and slavery efficiency is low because cities are large, most forests are chopped, and drafting is still far on the tech line. Even worse, this seems to be the time that is most difficult to make a military push (more on this later) against the AI. AI's often have strong militaries (at least if you play on a level that is competitive for you) and on top of that Longbowmen are probably the strongest city defenders in the game relative to available attacking troops. Even when I play a military route (I play all my games on Monarch or Emperor), I often find myself below average in power at this stage and there is usually one AI or even two that is stronger than me and does not like me very much. So, on with the guide!!

Key Units:
Longbowmen (L-bows)
Crossbowmen (X-bows)
Macemen (maces)
Pikemen (pikes)
Knights
Trebuchets (trebs)

Other Units (Classical Era) that are still useful: War Elephants (ellies), Catapults (catas); both are enabled once Construction is reseached

Key Military Technologies
Feudalism - enables L-bows, enables Vassalage, requires Monarchy
Machinery - enables X-bows, enable maces (with CS), requires Metal Casting
Civil Service (CS) - enables maces (with Machinery), enables Bureaucracy, requires Code of Laws or Feudalism, requires Mathematics
Guilds - enables knights (also need Horseback Riding), requires Feudalism, requires Machinery
Engineering - enables pikes, enables trebs, enables castles, +1 road movement, requires Machinery, requires Construction

L-bows

These units are your all purpose city defenders. In other words, they can defend cities against anything except Knights very well. If your cities have walls and castles (at Engineering), your Longbowmen get even stronger and practically invincible (even Knights cannot work without ample siege support). However, you should only build significant amounts of these if you anticipate fighting to occur in your cities. Outside of cities and in city attack, these units are very poor (they die to Classical era units like Swordsmen and Horse Archers if not on defensive terrain). They have practically no offensive use. If you do expect to face an attack, research Feudalism ASAP. If facing massed Knights/Cuirassiers, switch to Pikemen unless you have no Iron or just want to be pillaged back to the stone age because L-bows can't do anything against those in the field.

Synergies:
1) Protective trait - +20 city defense and 1FS chance is a significant boost
2) Barracks - gives 3XP; you get 1 free promotion; most synergistic is +25% city defense or if defending hills, go after CI followed by the Guerilla line; if defending other tiles (like forest) against a particular type of unit, go for a specialized promotion like Shock
3) Totem Pole (Native America) - gives 3XP to Archery units; you get 1 free promotion; combined with Barracks and Protective, you can get CGI/CGII/CGIII and DI L-bows out of the gate
4) Walls, Castles, Culture, Hills for extra city defense

With even a few of the above synergies, your cities become very difficult to take down. Likewise do not attack Sitting Bull after he has Engineering unless you have plenty of Riflemen and Cannon. You have been warned.

X-bows

These are the ultimate anti-melee unit. Given that Macemen are some of the most abundant units, you may be glad you built a few of those. Don't overdo on these since they are pretty bad in attacking cities against an enemy that defends with L-bows. Don't rely on these for city defense either, they are not better than L-bows since get +50% city defense that is basically equivalent to X-bow +50% melee defense. On top of that, L-bows are better at defending against non-melee units. X-bows are good stack protectors in the Middle Ages and a few should be included to take care of coutner-attacking melee units. Even if you have maces, you don't want these getting injured since they are often your primary attackers. You need Iron to build X-bows.

Synergies:
1) Protective trait - +20 city defense and 1FS chance is a minor boost (only 1FS chance is important here)
2) Barracks - gives 3XP; you get 1 free promotion; most of the time, going after CI/Shock followed by more combat is best to increase the X-bow's strength against melee
3) Totem Pole (Native America) - gives 3XP to Archery units; you get 1 free promotion (see Barracks for synergistic promotions)

Chu-ko-nu

Think these units are just X-bows. Think again.. they are like X-bows, but have 1 extra inherent FS and do collateral damage!! That's not even it as they do +50% more collateral damage than trebs and +25% more than cats and can kill the units they are attacking. When playing China, get Machinery asap. The synergies are same as regular X-bows although Cover promotions may be a good option if CKN's used for city attack.

Nice Strategy:

Play as Qin, build the Oracle (research Iron Working in the meantime) and then take Metal Casting as free tech. Build/chop/whip a Forge in any city other than the one that built the Oracle and run an Engineer specialist. When it pops, bulb Machinery. Make sure you have researched Archery in the meantime. If you are not surrounded by violent neighbors, the second city that has the Forge can build the Pyramids to speed up the engineer. You can get a decent force (8-10) of CKN's by 500BC. Make sure your cities have Barracks, give your boys Cover and attack the enemy. Keep producing more CKN's. Once the first enemy is done, attack the next one. You have until ~500 AD until L-bows start popping up. Use the window effectively.

Note: don't try if surrounded by psycho AI's (Monty, Shaka come to mind), don't try if no other enemy on landmass, don't try if you have no source of Iron.

Later in the medieval age, CKN's are useful to use as siege weapons with their relatively high strength (and thus high survival) and large collateral damage. They also excel in field combat against anything other than Knights. Unlike normal X-bows, they should be used offensively.

Maces

These guys are your first medieval offensive units with a considerable strength of 8. You might think they are great anti-melee units with their +50% against melee, but they aren't. Enemy maces get +50% against you so it cancels out. X-bows are more efficient at dealing with enemy maces (cheaper + get slightly higher odds). Maces require Iron or Copper to build and knowledge of CS and Machinery. If you are first to get these, train a few and attack your nearest enemy who may still have archers on defense. Maces work well with City Raider (CR) promotions. You can give one or two CI followed by Shock particularly if you don't have Iron to build X-bows. Against L-bow defenders, maces won't cut it without siege support. Likewise against enemies who have X-bows - X-bows can actually kill you in the field too so make sure you have an escort if you know your enemies have X-bows. A L-bow (or even a mace) with CI/Cover will do ok. If facing Knights, get some pikes/ellies as escort.

Synergies:
1) Aggressive trait - free CI, open up level 2 promos like Shock and Cover
2) Barracks - gives 3XP; you get 1 free promotion; most of the time (see above), promote down the CR line

Berserker

These guys are great on water maps with no amphibious penalty (they attack coastal targets from ships just like land targets). They are not exactly bad on land either since Ragnar is Aggressive and they get an inherent +10% attack vs cities. With Barracks, you get +10% strength AND +30% attack vs. cities. Amphibious may also come in useful if you attack across rivers. Still, these units are meant to be used on water maps. It's worth beelining these on such maps and raiding enemy coastal cities. Even just going around razing cities will get you cash and seriously weaken your enemies who may still have Archers on defense.

Samurai

Since Toku is Aggressive, you are getting maces with 2 inherent FS, 1 FS chance (Drill I), and +10% strength (from CI). These units are significantly tougher than maces and thus can do much better in attacking L-bow defended cities. Give them Cover followed by the CR promotions. You should use siege to soften up the enemy, however. This unit requires Iron (cannot build with Copper) and it's worth beelining. Certainly a better unit than a Berserker on a land map although they are vulnerable to knights - FS don't help.

Pikes

These guys are your primary anti-mounted guys. Much like L-bows and X-bows, they are generally terrible city attackers (unless cities are guarded by mounted units). As city defenders, they do excel against Knights and can engage Knights in the field as well (remember that pikes are much cheaper than knights). If you are facing Knights, beeline Engineering and train a couple of these guys. You'll be glad you did. They are good to include in any stack as stack protectors. Optimal promotion line is the one that emphasizes the pike's strength - CI/CII/Formation/CIII... Pikes with Formation are even more cost-effective Knight killers.

Synergies:
1) Aggressive trait - free CI, open up level 2 promos like Shock and Cover
2) Barracks - gives 3XP; you get 1 free promotion; most of the time (see above), promote down the CR line

Landsknecht

There are often heated debate whether this unit is good. I am not quite sold on this unit. It is practically a hybrid between a X-bow and a pike (effective +50% vs. macemen and +100% vs. knights) and as such not a good city attacker. It is a good all purpose defender and can be an effective pillager, but it is very vulnerable to enemy X-bows. It should be escorted with a CI/Cover L-bow or something similar. It is generally good in field battles because of its high strength against melee and mounted as long as there are no X-bows. Make some of them anti-melee specialists (CI/Shock/CII...) and some of them anti-mounted specialists (CI/CII/Formation/CIII...). This units can save you some hammers when used as a stack defenders. Instead of having x X-bows + x pikes, have x landsknecht.

Knights

Build a lot of these fast units. Knights do exceptionally well in the field against maces, L-bows, X-bows and nothing before pikes can stop them. Against L-bows in cities, they do fairly well with high attack strength and immunity to first strikes. Once pikes show up, progress with just knights become difficult and ample siege support and anti-melee escort like maces or X-bows is a must. Knights don't receive defensive bonuses so they are not great when defending, but they are not horrible either. If defending your own cities, use your knights to attack the enemy stack - you can hurt them badly if they have no pikes since you can cause flanking damage and weaken their siege at relatively little cost. Knights benefit most from combat and after Engineering a Shock promotion is a good choice to help with pikes. Knights require Iron and Horses to build so make sure you have these resources. Research Guilds early if you plan to war in the Middle Ages.

Synergies:
1) Barracks - gives 3XP; you get 1 free promotion
2) Stable - gives 2XP; you get 1 free promotion; Ger (Mongols) - gives 4XP

Camel Archers

Certainly not one of the strongest UU's but definitely one of the most underrated. Stats wise, its just like a knight and generally has the same uses, but with 15% withdrawal chance. Your best bets for promotions are Flanking I and II to give your camel archers 45% withdrawal chance. This makes them one of the most cost-effective killers of L-bows in cities. You can even destroy pikes if you have numbers without too many casualties. Remember, units that retreat can fight another day. Camel archers in large numbers are very scary. On top of what I just mentioned, camel archers are resourceless!! In one of those games where you are missing Horses or Iron, you can still build them. Furthermore, your enemy cannot prevent you from building them by pillaging your resource.

Cataphracts

These guys are what I imagine when I think of heavy cavalry. They high strength makes them the ultimate field unit - it is on even ground even with pikes (its counter) while it own any other medieval unit pretty hard. Attacking cities with L-bows is much easier although catas do not have first strike immunity so Drill heavy L-bows (you'll proly only see those in MP) may be harder than usual. Overall, one of the strongest UU's in the game, no doubt about it. Beeline Guilds when you play the Byzantines. Recommended promotions and resource requirements are same as for regular knights.

Catapults

These guys become available at Construction and are a siege weapon of choice in the early medieval age. They are excellent in field combat (better than trebs in fact), but die in large numbers facing fortified L-bows in cities. If your enemies have castles (enabled by Engineering), forget about using cats - not cost efficient at all. Get Engineering yourself and get trebs. Generally give catapults CR (for attacking cities). If you have a few for field combat or already have trebs, give them Barrage. Escort these units with your primary attackers like knights and other specialized defenders like pikes and X-bows.

Synergies:
1) Barracks - gives 3XP; you get 1 free promotion
2) Citadel (Spanish Castle) - gives 5XP to siege units, expires at Economics (avoid this tech when playing as Spain)

Trebs

Your best bet for killing those pesky L-bows hiding in well fortified cities. With +100% city attack, trebs have a much much higher survival rate than cats although they do deal slightly less collateral damage. Once you get them, don't go back to using cats for attacking cities. Trebs are also better at bombarding city defenses. Escort these units with your primary attackers like knights and other specialized defenders like pikes and X-bows.

Synergies:
1) Barracks - gives 3XP; you get 1 free promotion
2) Citadel (Spanish Castle) - gives 5XP to siege units, expires at Economics (avoid this tech when playing as Spain)

Phants

Also available at Construction, these guys are a force in the Classical Era although they become weaker in the medieval era. Their anti-mounted bonus gives you ability to counted mounted units before Engineering. Even once you get pikes, you may still want to have these guys. They are slightly better against Knights and can be utilized offensively to clean up while pikes are too weak for any offensive use. Beware of enemy pikes though - they eat phants for breakfast. Phants require Ivory to build, which is a relatively rare resource so you won't build these in the majority of your games. Give these guys combat and formation promotion (once you get CII) to enhance their ability against mounted units further.

Ballista Phants

Have a unique ability of being able to selectively kill mounted units when attacking. These means you can even attack enemy stack with pikes to kill their mounted units. This is nice ability because you get a change to remove the most dangerous offensive units in an enemy stack in a cost-effective manner.

Synergies:
1) Barracks - gives 3XP; you get 1 free promotion
2) Stable - gives 2XP; you get 1 free promotion; Ger (Mongols) - gives 4XP

General Military Synergies:
1) Settling GG's - gives units in that city +2XP
2) Attaching GG's to a unit - distributes 20XP even into all units in a stack (can give a single unit 20XP to make a supermedic or other specialized unit)
3) Theocracy (Theology) - gives units in all cities +2XP
4) Vassalage (Feudalism) - gives units in all cities +2XP, gives free unit support (# depends on map size)
5) Using spies to cause revolt - can reduce city defense completely for one turn. Works well with fast units like knights where speed is important. It may not be easy to get a lot of espionage points especially against a large enemy empire.
 
This is great idea. I think the easiest medieaval war is when playing as China (as mentioned above)/HRE.

HRE has the great Pike/Maceman, and it's great stack defender.
Great job so far.
 
:agree: This is a great idea for a strategy article. I am typically warmonger-ish and this is definitely part of my game that could be improved.

One question: I normally try to use x-bows for stack defense and promote up the Drill line. Is that less effective for defense than Combat/Shock?
 
Article is updated, but there is more to come. :)
I'm glad people like this idea. If anyone has any input, I'm glad to integrate it into the guide.

One question: I normally try to use x-bows for stack defense and promote up the Drill line. Is that less effective for defense than Combat/Shock?

X-bows are generally weak against anything except melee so giving them general promotions like Combat or Drill is rarely worthwhile. In other words, X-bows will never be effective vs. medieval non-melee units. Combat/Shock increases their strength and makes them excel further at destroying melee. Chu-ko-nu are an exception to this and should be given combat promotions. Drill is not great with X-bows imo because of their base strength.
 
On techs you should probably mention guilds enable knights. When you continue you should talk about knights. They have high base strength and are primarily for open-field stack defense (esp. vs. crossbows), mobile active defense, and attacking pretty much any stack in the field that doesn't have pikes or elephants, particularly if they have trebuchets/cats in them. Though the UU knights can be competent in even more roles.

On longbows you should probably mention that they’re better on hills. And actually, a longbow is equal to a crossbow on a hill against melee, and better versus all other units.

It'd also be useful to mention that if you have an espionage surplus against your enemy it might be worthwhile to use espionage to take down their defenses instead of siege. If they have castles and chichen itza, for example, it can take several precious turns to tear down those defenses. Often better to send a spy ahead even if you're not attacking with 2-move units

Article is updated, but there is more to come. :)
I'm glad people like this idea. If anyone has any input, I'm glad to integrate it into the guide.

X-bows are generally weak against anything except melee so giving them general promotions like Combat or Drill is rarely worthwhile. In other words, X-bows will never be effective vs. medieval non-melee units. Combat/Shock increases their strength and makes them excel further at destroying melee. Chu-ko-nu are an exception to this and should be given combat promotions. Drill is not great with X-bows imo because of their base strength.

If the enemy has maces/x-bows before I have knights I like to use x-bows to defend the stack against shock maces and other crossbows. If you can stick to hills and forests you should be fine with woodsman maces and guerrilla longbows, but you'll need cover crossbows/longbows to handle other crossbows in the open field unless you have war elephants.

Another thing to keep in mind is that your x-bows can be upgraded to machine guns later, while your longbows cannot. Machine guns are very limited in what promos they can get, but upgraded units keep their promos, and machine guns with good promos are amazing defenders.
 
Nice work and good idea!

On Maces: They are the last melee/gunpowder unit that can get the city raider promotion. The next thing you can build and send off to war with CR promotions are tanks. Therefore, if you ever want Grens/Rifles/Infantry with City Raider promotions, your best bet is to build lots of maces and let them get at least CRII but preferably CRIII. They also have a very long life, and you can even build them, promote them to CRII and upgrade them to rifles or grens all in the same turn.

In the medieval times, a decent stack of CRII/CRIII maces will clean out a city with moderate siege support, and would be one of the best offensive units to build anyway. It is, however, a much more valuable unit than what it can do in it's time because of what you can do with it when it becomes obsolete.

(By the way, I'd say some of the same thing about trebs. Not only do they do a great job in their own time, but you would do well to start saving your cash for the day you discover steel. Medieval wars are OVER when you bring cannons to the party, with the notable exception of somebody like Monty who might have a stack of 30 knights running around.)
 
On Maces: They are the last melee/gunpowder unit that can get the city raider promotion. The next thing you can build and send off to war with CR promotions are tanks.

Whoa, easy there! Cannons and arty both have access to that promotion, and happen to be quite powerful in their era...for example something like pikes/cannon with some CG units (usually muskets) can over-run anything pre-rifling+MT, and the AI isn't very good about coordinated counter-sod efforts. You go vs cities with CR II cannons, you win.

CR II arty is pretty much effective clean through industrialism, though CR II tanks start to replace them in terms of which unit you might want to lead in such an attack. Anyway, many of the medieval units in this guide can continue to be quite effective with cannon support, so if you're going to prioritize medieval dueling, look for steel soon too.
 
Ideally you'll have both. It's not like I'll never risk a CR3 rifle upgraded from a mace, but I'd much rather sac a unit I can replace.
 
Lately I'm finding that if I don't got 100% mounted charge, cannons are a better priority than rifles. This is because 1) They are also immune to counters until rifling and 2) Otherwise obsolete units are still highly effective and 3) They are extremely effective city attackers and you can bombard w/o spies or slowing down much.

If I go rifling the incentive seems to be to draft like crazy. Too many times I've been kind of screwed by the AI getting grenadiers or just tons of PRO longbows or something. I *will* pre-build units to upgrade them if necessary (aka small empire and need to transfer as much output to :hammers: to abuse the attack window as possible), but cannon just seem so much more effective, especially since they continue to roll even at parity...something mass rifles do not accomplish w/o siege support.
 
Hmm... I guess I should have reiterated my statement about melee/gunpowder units in my second sentence when I said the next thing you can send off to war with CR promotions out of the box are tanks. Sorry about that.

I kind of agree with you TMiT, given my own way, I will either fight a medieval war shortly after I can bring trebs to the party or right around when I can bring cannons.

The early medieval war would be in a scenario when I couldn't muster enough might to eliminate a close neighbor in the BCs, but clearly need his or her cities to be mine ASAP. I'll do everything I can to get trebs and then match them with whatever ground troops I can slap together until I can hopefully start building maces and longbows quickly enough to city bust and city garrison as quickly as possible. It is not a good point in the game to fall into a long, ugly war.

The ideal late medieval war would be hanging around building various medieval units while I beline steel. Sometimes, Liberalism is a key component of the drive for steel. Once cannons are in play, longbow defenders are dead-meat and muskets need to be in significant numbers to hold a city. To be fair, you could win a war against a medieval AI civ with nothing but cannons, longbows and the occasional pike and x-bow for stack defense.

My point is that the ability to turn CR maces into CR grens or CR rifles is often an extremely helpful tactic, and that it is an extra thing to consider when building your medieval army. If you're engaged in a medieval war, and haven't finished the job when the enemy is going to start building rifles to defend it's remaining cities, you'll be much better off if you can have a few CRIII grens to finish the job. Even minimal siege damage will be enough to give your CR gunpowder units extremely high odds.
 
Hmm... I guess I should have reiterated my statement about melee/gunpowder units in my second sentence when I said the next thing you can send off to war with CR promotions out of the box are tanks. Sorry about that.

I kind of agree with you TMiT, given my own way, I will either fight a medieval war shortly after I can bring trebs to the party or right around when I can bring cannons.

The early medieval war would be in a scenario when I couldn't muster enough might to eliminate a close neighbor in the BCs, but clearly need his or her cities to be mine ASAP. I'll do everything I can to get trebs and then match them with whatever ground troops I can slap together until I can hopefully start building maces and longbows quickly enough to city bust and city garrison as quickly as possible. It is not a good point in the game to fall into a long, ugly war.

The ideal late medieval war would be hanging around building various medieval units while I beline steel. Sometimes, Liberalism is a key component of the drive for steel. Once cannons are in play, longbow defenders are dead-meat and muskets need to be in significant numbers to hold a city. To be fair, you could win a war against a medieval AI civ with nothing but cannons, longbows and the occasional pike and x-bow for stack defense.

My point is that the ability to turn CR maces into CR grens or CR rifles is often an extremely helpful tactic, and that it is an extra thing to consider when building your medieval army. If you're engaged in a medieval war, and haven't finished the job when the enemy is going to start building rifles to defend it's remaining cities, you'll be much better off if you can have a few CRIII grens to finish the job. Even minimal siege damage will be enough to give your CR gunpowder units extremely high odds.

This is especially true for Ragnar. CRIII amphibious rifles would be enough to even tempt Attacko away from his 'Phants of Doom. Even better, by the time Rifles come along you can bombard defences to zero offshore with frigates, then pile in with the nasties.

As a peace-monger though, I cannot endorse such wanton bloodshed :religion:
 
About the HRE UU:

This beasts make pretty much any attack with maces far harder. Even samurai can't defeat them with ease. I know because in my last HRE-Japan war , I was forced to go pike-treb-musket to take HRE down, because , even with siege support, my samurai were going down like flies in december ( Ok, pro l-bows and wallls ( with castles on top ) ) didn't helped either )
 
A much needed guide.

I have done this two ways with Charlemagne

1. Up to liberalism then back to engineering and onward to cannon - great if you can do it as cannons don't need fancy rifle/grenadiers for a while.

2. Ignore liberalism, just go to engineering, possibly via a construction-era war and batter the enemy with trebs.

I suspect 2 is more in line with the thread title - best of luck - anything that moves the game off a mad race to liberalism will be a boon for us all.
 
Don't forget the possibility of using Music in the tech path.

There are basically 2 main ways of gaining 5 XP out of the gate for all of your cities.

Theology is one way of doing it, but it's a dead-end tech. Music is also a dead-end tech, but it gives you a chance of winning a free Great Artist, under the right conditions. Both techs, however, are useful as trade bait with neighboring leaders.

Since you can often trade for Feudalism (to unlock Vassalage), more so than Theology, Music provides the springboard for you to do so by acting as trade bait. If Feudalism is not available for trade by the time you finish Music, there's still a good chance you can use it to trade for another big tech such as Machinery.

With Music, you can wage medieval war by using Vassalage to boost your units to 3rd level, instead of Theocracy. You get the same trade-bait effect of Theology, but with the added chance of winning a free Great Artist.

Under the right conditions, you should be able to use Music along with a smaller tech to trade for a bigger tech such as Feudalism.
 
Article Updated!!
This beasts make pretty much any attack with maces far harder. Even samurai can't defeat them with ease. I know because in my last HRE-Japan war , I was forced to go pike-treb-musket to take HRE down, because , even with siege support, my samurai were going down like flies in december ( Ok, pro l-bows and wallls ( with castles on top ) ) didn't helped either )

They are just like X-bows against maces. Against knights, they are like pikes. They are an interesting UU to be sure, but they are mostly defensive (X-bows and even L-bows smoke them when backed by defensive terrain) and as such among the worst in the game. The way to beat them would be lots of siege and hopefully something stronger than Knights like Cuirassiers or better yet Grenadiers.
 
They are an interesting UU to be sure, but they are mostly defensive (X-bows and even L-bows smoke them when backed by defensive terrain) and as such among the worst in the game.

The "defensive" nature is all they need to be if you take enough seige. Treb/Landsknecht-> Cannon/Landsknecht rocks ! This combo got me my only 1604 win !
 
The "defensive" nature is all they need to be if you take enough seige. Treb/Landsknecht-> Cannon/Landsknecht rocks ! This combo got me my only 1604 win !

How did you promote them? CI/Cover or down the CR line? I don't see them being good against softened up L-bows in cities. They are much much worse against X-bows. Use with Cannon is not a good measure for how good the UU is. It's the Cannons that do the work on the medieval units, not the Landsknecht. :)
 
I promoted up the combat tree, with a few diverted to medic. Too much hard work getting the right unit in the right place otherwise, and the enemies weapon of choice, horsey troops (knight, curassier, etc), are usually immune to first strike.

You can use anything to attack softened up targets if they are soft enough - You can always take a couple of mace/musket (which are slightly better against various foes anyway) for the opening strike, but if you have too many "fair fights" taking over a city you aren't using enough siege.

It's the Cannons that do the work on the medieval units, not the Landsknecht.

Yup, the landsnekts hold back the knights without being too vulnerable to mace.
 
If you're using pikes and cannons, the role of the pike is anti-mounted (knights and if promoted well cuirassers vs the AI)...the cannons themselves do pretty well vs maces :p.

The HRE UU is better during full-on medieval warfare, but I always felt it a bit subpar. It serves as a pretty weak unit in the field (getting wrecked by the likes of crossbows and only moderately better than maces in some situations, other than the standard anti-mounted use), and isn't something that does well vs longbows in cities. So, what does it do? Anti-mounted stack defense, typically. You might make a couple more of these than you would have pikes, since they're a bit more versatile, but at the end of the day I don't see how anybody finds them impressive at all.
 
You might make a couple more of these than you would have pikes, since they're a bit more versatile, but at the end of the day I don't see how anybody finds them impressive at all.

They aren't "impressive" they are "useful" since you don't have to build whatever ratio of maces/pike you would otherwise need to do the same job as one or two Landsnekts.

Since my Charlemange phase I have actually just used pikes for many of the same job, so you may be right about they're being not awesome, but having to worry about maces and crossbows (instead of just crossbows) does drag a bit as the AI tends to like maces - but I don't think I conquered a chinese AI with charlie ....

Still, when either pikes or snekts finnaly disappear from the build menus of my smaller towns I often scratch my head as to what to do as the replacement (grenadiers) usually needs too many hammers for them.
 
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