Mehmed Immortal Cookbook

[kossin]

@learner gamer

Spoiler :

Normally an AI cannot change DoW targets, unless something blocks him from attacking said target. I've seen it happen a few times when an AI was after me and the turn before DoW I beg some gold and the AI turns around and DoWs someone else.

In any case, you are not a land target for KK, odds of KK targeting one of his direct neighbors are much much higher.

@everyone

Are there any late submitters looking for a round extension?

 

[Benginal]

@ learner gamer

Spoiler :

I'm surprised you chose to whip/build lighthouses and monuments in your new cities. In my game I was building library's first and then granaries. I wasn't sure which is best to build first, but given all the food we have and the fact that we're in representation, it seems like a better move to get scientists in your new cities before getting lighthouses. I'm interested in hearing your reasoning for those builds.

@ Kossin

Nope ... but then again I just want to go on to round 3, .

 

[Grashopa]

Benginal

Spoiler :

Granaries and Lighthouses are half price and we've got the colossus. 2f3c coastal tiles are very very good. Saves us from building workers as well as otherwise the new cities would be working unimproved tiles waiting to get the pop to whip the library.. I don't know I feel like in my save I am far behind where I want to be by 1 AD... But hitting the happy cap on 3 commerce coastal tiles then running scientists should work out long term right?

 

[learner gamer]

@Benginal / @kossin (EDIT: @Grashopa):

Spoiler :

@ learner gamer

I'm surprised you chose to whip/build lighthouses and monuments in your new cities. In my game I was building library's first and then granaries. I wasn't sure which is best to build first, but given all the food we have and the fact that we're in representation, it seems like a better move to get scientists in your new cities before getting lighthouses. I'm interested in hearing your reasoning for those builds.

That’s a great question Benginal! FWIW, my thought process was that having settled a new city, I could start by growing it to size 2 and then 1 pop whip a granary because we’re expansive. With the granary in place, I would then direct whip overflow into a lighthouse to benefit from the fact that we’re organized. Depending on the quality of the resource in the second ring (and need for culture to get access to those tiles) I would then let the city grow back to size 2 and whip in either (i) a monument or (ii) a lighthouse for 1 pop. With the granary in place, regrowth from the 1 pop would be fast. I was then intending to build libraries (possibly to run representation fuelled scientists depending on the city's food surplus and how much I need it to grow) as you note.

For me, the key point is that with the granary and lighthouse in place first, I can then build the libraries up faster because (i) it then takes much less time to get to 6 pop (which I’ll need if I’m going to 3 pop whip a library) with the granary in place (having sacrificed only 1 pop to get it built because we're expansive) and (ii) whilst the city is growing, I can get it to work lighthouse and The Colossus improved coastal tiles to help speed up growth and commerce. Of course, the penalty I pay for this is that I’ll have a little whip weariness in my cities where I’ve been whipping. That will fade however – and I can of course use science specialists to help in that regard if I really need to slow growth whilst whip weariness fades.

To my mind, going the other way (getting libraries in first and passing on the granary and lighthouse) certainly gives you access to representation boosted scientists to boost BPT. However, getting that library built first requires getting to (i) at least 6 pop for a 3 pop whip or (ii) 4 pop and 30 hammers for a 2 pop whip; and this growth has to occur without a granary (to boost city pop growth) or a lighthouse (to give your The Colossus improved coastal tiles at least two food) in place. Given the locations of my cities, I thought that getting to 4 or 6 pop without the granary and lighthouse in place first would take too long and works against having gotten The Colossus (which incentivises us to grow whilst working coastal tiles instead of grassland cottages, which look like the best of the tiles available in the inner ring of each city's BFC.)

To put it another way, I think the early build order depends in general on (i) what tiles the city has available to it to fuel early growth once it is settled (ie. in the inner ring of the BFC if not creative) and (ii) the leader's traits (ie. whether they are expansive, organized and / or creative). In this instance, the fact that Mehmed is expansive and organized lends itself to one pop whip granaries and lighhouses. Meanwhile, the food poor nature of many tiles in the inner ring of each city's BFC, together with the fact that we have built The Colossus, means we can grow just as quickly working lighhouse improved coastal tiles (as we would working grassland cottages) and benefit from the extra commerce The Colossus gives us whilst we're working them.

All that said, I readily admit that I’ve not run the maths to prove the point – which is why your question is a great one. And this is where you come in kossin. If you were to take a look at my save (or perhaps speak in more general terms if you lack the time to open my save and take a look at where I’ve placed the city sites), which is the superior approach in your view: (i) whip in the early granary and lighthouse before getting the libraries up to run representation boosted scientists or (ii) whip in the library first (without building a granary and lighthouse first) to run representation boosted scientists and then one pop whip the granary and lighthouse? Once again, great question Benginal.

EDIT:

But hitting the happy cap on 3 commerce coastal tiles then running scientists should work out long term right?

@Grashopa: That was my thinking too.

BTW Grashopa: Having looked at your save, if you're way behind where you want to be at 1AD, I'm in serious trouble! On a more serious note, have you ever posted a playthrough on these forums? Looking at your last few saves, I think I could learn alot by looking at some of your past games...perhaps in other cookbooks?

 

[ABigCivFan]

About whip and whip order in this game.

For coastal cities without much trees. Whip is the best and fastest way to build infrustructure. More == More here, so enhance food should be #1 priority.

I recommend the following order:

0. pop border to get seafood (religion or monument)
1. Granary (faster growth hence faster whip hammer)
2. Lighthouse if you have seafood. Fish with lighthouse is the best food tile in the game pre-biology.

Without Granary or lighthouse, it will take you much longer to get to enough pop to work the best tiles and running 2 scientists.

 

[Grashopa]

You can still sacrifice growth for research with rep scientists after the cheap granary/lighthouse... Depends on what tech if any you want to get to ASAP. Civil Service for bureau here has a big impact... Which you can see if ABCF continues his shadow into the next round.

As for my save, I'm used to deity - I sat on 0% slider way too long waiting for the AIs to research alphabet, currency, etc because my timings are off. And on deity obviously with trading then I'd be much farther ahead. Its why you get earlier liberalism dates on deity.

 

[kossin]

Round 2 voting is here!

Benginal

Slizský slimák

nishant1911

enKage

drlake

Grashopa

vranasm

learner gamer

Dhoomstriker

Shadows/save missing/etc.

ABigCivFan

If you haven't and still want to submit a save, please do so, I will add them to the list.
Hoping for <48 hours voting round, polls will exit if a clear winner emerges.

Back to standard 3pts, 2pts, 1pt for 1st,2nd 3rd saves you liked.

 

[obsolete]

As for my save, I'm used to deity - I sat on 0% slider way too long waiting for the AIs to research alphabet

Been there, done that before. One reason I hate jumping between the two levels sometimes. You always start to play like sh!t.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Two Game of the Month games coming due at the same time have kept me busy, but now that they are submitted, I'll see about whipping out a quick round shortly.

 

[enKage]

3 saves, I would like to grant with points

Grashopa
Managed to block Gilgamesh expansion w/o declaring war, and so not losing profits from GLH.

I predict Gilgamesh will put a city in a gap, but as we have enough culture in Ankara, he will not grab the rice

the same reason - learner gamer, but he is closer to Literature

nishant 1911
Great Library already built and Sumerian city in a place, which can be quickly and easily taken (nearby productive cities)

I cannot decide, which is the best and how to distribute points. I consider nishant's and lg's equally, so:
nishant1911, learner gamer - 2,5 points each
Grashopa - 1,5 point

(I suppose there is still non standard 3-2-1 points distribution?)

 

[Benginal]

1 points
Nishant: Already has the Great Library. Giggles is on our island, but didn't land at either of the two good northern fish sites and there's potential to culturally take that city.

2 points
Learner Gamer: Pretty much the same as Grashopa.

3.5 points
Grashopa: Excellent expansion and we have another settler on the way. Nice wonders and we should be able to get The Great Library in 13 turns. I'd also like to see good players use the Mausoleum, a wonder I rarely build.

 

[kossin]

3 saves, I would like to grant with points

Grashopa
Managed to block Gilgamesh expansion w/o declaring war, and so not losing profits from GLH.

I predict Gilgamesh will put a city in a gap, but as we have enough culture in Ankara, he will not grab the rice

the same reason - learner gamer, but he is closer to Literature

nishant 1911
Great Library already built and Sumerian city in a place, which can be quickly and easily taken (nearby productive cities)

I cannot decide, which is the best and how to distribute points. I consider nishant's and lg's equally, so:
nishant1911, learner gamer - 2,5 points each
Grashopa - 1,5 point

(I suppose there is still non standard 3-2-1 points distribution?)

1 points
Nishant: Already has the Great Library. Giggles is on our island, but didn't land at either of the two good northern fish sites and there's potential to culturally take that city.

2 points
Learner Gamer: Pretty much the same as Grashopa.

3.5 points
Grashopa: Excellent expansion and we have another settler on the way. Nice wonders and we should be able to get The Great Library in 13 turns. I'd also like to see good players use the Mausoleum, a wonder I rarely build.

There are fewer saves now, so only 3,2,1.

 

[Benginal]

1 point - Nishant
2 points - Learner Gamer
3 points - Grashopa

 

[enKage]

ok, so:
1 point - Grashopa
2 pts - learner gamer
3 pts - nishant1911

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Here's my game...

Spoiler :

I was kind of shocked when I opened up the game and saw us with only 2 Cities and The Pyramids far away from being completed. With The Great Lighthouse online, there was only one thing for it: DELAY The Pyramids and REX LIKE MAD.

Yes sir, we pumped out Settlers and Workers first and then went for needed infrastructure.

As you can see here, it was still a bit of a squeeze to beat Gilgamesh to a Settling location, but after this averted disaster, he hasn't sent a new Settling Party... probably because his existing one is "trapped."

Here you can see what I mean by being "trapped," in that Gilgamesh's Settler Party is just "idling in place" instead of moving to settle somewhere.

Actually, I spent the Gold early on in the turnset to upgrade our Woodsman II Warrior into an Axeman. He quickly got Woodsman III and has been patrolling the woods for Barb units... it is a bit of a shame that he can't get more than 10 experience points, but at least I haven't needed to build more Military Units than the 1 Warrior that I built. Good Diplomacy and our relatively isolation are keeping the AIs at bay for now.


We have a nice little empire of Cities, along with well-improved Resources (all of our Rice Resources have been irrigated, all but one of our Seafood Resources has a Work Boat built for it, etc).

The last Work Boat to be built is for our City in the south, and that City is building the Work Boat as it pauses from building Moai Statues. I'd planned to build two Work Boats for that southern City using our Pyramids City, but instead decided to put the 30 Hammers from the second Work Boat towards getting The Hanging Gardens sooner in The Pyramids' City, leaving the southern City with one improved Fish Resource off of which to whip a Work Boat for its Crab. The other Cities in the north that require Work Boats have Work Boats already sailing towards them.

Our only competition for The Colossus is Gilgamesh. Either we'll build it or he will and we'll get some nice Failure Gold plus a good excuse to go and attack him.

With our expanded empire, building The Hanging Gardens seems to make a lot of sense, especially to double-up on the Great Engineer Points.

I've been crazily negotating trades, including giving away our Copper and getting someone else's in return. It's all for a good cause, though, giving us 2 Forge-based Happiness Resources, Wine, and even IVORY.

The tech pace seems to be reasonable. We'll get Civil Service pretty soon, after which we can probably head to Literature using a partially-completed Aethetics tech to get us there quickly.

I would say that we are in a good tech position relative to the AIs. We're advanced enough but we haven't over-traded. I have also been VERY CAREFUL not to trade techs with anyone's Worst Enemy, so Diplomatically, we are in pretty good shape. I left it to you to decide if we should switch into a Religion or not. I switched us into Organized Religion at the same time as Representation, since it did not take an extra turn to do so. It only costs us 1 more Gold per Turn, while I have sold off a Fish for 3 Gold per Turn, so don't even worry about the cost of that Civic--our books are balanced.

So, where should we go from here? I would say now that our continent is pretty much filled-out (we have 1 Settler which is built that can settle the last City that we can settle without building Resource-less Cities), it is time to build up some infrastrucuture and either tech like mad or else build an army and go to war.


With no one in the world knowing Aesthetics, we can complete The Colossus and The Hanging Gardens without having to make a tough choice as to which Wonders not to go for. With Gold and Ivory under our control, we can finish the current Wonders, then learn Aethestics, and finally can choose to build some of the Aethetics Wonders quickly or else can just partially-build them for Failure Gold.

A Great Engineer should be spawned in time to build The Great Library by the time that we learn Literature.

Remember, land is power, especially if you can afford it financially, and that is what The Great Lighthouse has allowed us to do: afford it financially. So, with a good bunch of Cities set up, you can really take the game anywhere:
- Diplo is still a solid option, due to our careful trading policy
- Playing a Builder's game could work well
- Going to war from our power base of several Cities could be an effective choice
- We can probably beat the AIs to a lot of World Wonders, if we choose to do so

 

[Benginal]

@ Dhoomstriker

Spoiler :

Great save. This is what I was trying to do with my game ... expand a lot, and I'm impressed with your game. As somebody who doesn't play on immortal, I was a little more cautious about the wonders and wanted to make sure I got them. So I finished the pyramids right away, and have already finished the Colossus and am half way through the Great Library. I decided to skip the Hanging Gardens.

In an attempt to understand early build orders. Can I ask you about your southwestern city? I see you had the first three builds as the other players, but how did you decide on a forge as your fourth build instead of the library?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Trading currency to the AIs actually helps increasing the trade routes

I won't spoiler this point since it is general-info-related.

I used to think the same way. Then I got disappointed when I found out that trading away Currency only seemed to help out the AIs but did not help out me.


In fact, you can only get 1 Foreign Trade Route per AI City. It does not matter if their City has 1 Trade Route, 2 Trade Routes, or any number of Trade Routes: you are limited to getting 1 Trade Route from each of their Cities.

So, if you give away Currency, you won't gain directly. You could gain indirectly if your aim is to speed up the global tech pace.

However, this approach of speeding up the AIs' research rates could also backfire if you are close in tech to the AIs and are racing them to build Wonders--they may beat you to Wonders just by having arrived at the relevant tech a few turns earlier than they would have done without knowing Currency.

Similarly, if you are planning to go to war, you might end up handing the AIs the means to outdo you (getting Crossbowmen faster to deter your Macemen, getting Horse Archers faster to counter your Catapults, etc).


Given this knowledge, the trading-away of Currency becomes a strategic decision that depends upon how your game is going and whether or not you'd like to speed up the AIs' research rates.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

@Benginal

Spoiler :

In an attempt to understand early build orders. Can I ask you about your southwestern city? I see you had the first three builds as the other players, but how did you decide on a forge as your fourth build instead of the library?

I'm still trying to get caught-up on reading the spoilers right now, but I assume that you are talking about building a Lighthouse/Granary + some way of expanding your City's borders (Religion, being a Creative Civ, building a Monument, etc).

I would say that I would skip the Monument for a while if I didn't absolutely need the squares in the outer City radius--as with my first-round game, I settled a City to the east of our capital to share its Grassland Pig square. I waited a long time before building a Monument there, so that I could help get out some early Workers from that City using the Grassland Pig + a Grassland Hills Mine (or two such Mines whenever the capital needed its Pig back).


For a Coastal City where its Seafood Resource is in its outer City radius, I'll try and build a Monument first if I don't have a nearby Holy City or a Missionary prepared.

After that, it depends upon the situation. In a normal game (i.e. when we don't have cheap Buildings), where Slavery is enabled, I will likely build a Lighthouse before a Granary, especially if the City is working more than 1 Seafood square as it grows to Size 4.

Here, though, since we can whip at Size 2 (and thus only need to work 1 square at a time), there won't be a case where we will be working 2 Seafood squares before whipping and thus building the Granary first makes sense.


If you had a Civ with one of the Buildings coming at half price but not the other, you'd generally build the cheap one first, only getting an expensive Granary before a cheap Lighthouse in a case where you have 3 land-based squares to work as you grow the City up to Size 4.


As for a Forge--well, I love my Forges. When I have whipping Unhappiness and I also have at least 1 (or like in my game, 2) of the Forge-based Happiness Resources, I'll definitely prioritize whipping a Forge, as doing so will speed up the production of all future buildings while the free Happiness will take care of my Whipping Unhappiness, allowing me to continue to grow.

If you REALLY want Libraries for running Scientists, then I would say: don't bother! What a waste! Why whip away 3 population points? Instead, switch into Caste System and run THREE Scientists with those population points that you would have otherwise whipped away.

I'm not a big fan of running Representation-based Scientists everywhere, since doing so means that you hardly have a chance to get any infrastructure up and all that you have is a tech lead without the production potential to turn it into an army... when you tech ahead of the AIs, you make it easier for them to follow in your tech footsteps and thus they can get caught up faster than if you hadn't teched ahead of them.


I see little value in racing to Liberalism just to grab Nationalism, while at the same time hastening the AIs' tech pace and eventual tech parity (and Military Unit parity). I would say that it would be better if you could do so a bit more slowly, still get there first, yet at the same time, have the infrastructure prepared to be able to leverage your lead into a military advantage. But, that approach is just my opinion and others are free to disagree.

The only major exception that I see is when you want to leverage Liberalism's CIVICS, such as Free Speech for a Cultural Victory. Outside of that niche usage, racing to Liberalism sooner than you need to do so at the cost of having your Cities unprepared infrastructure-wise is a fool's errand, if you ask me.


So... in summary, I don't think that I'd build a Library before a Forge in a Fishing City if I have Metal Casting unless I have a large amount of Commerce in said City or if I need the Library for some other reason (to push back encroaching AI Cultural Borders, to get at least one City running Specialists, etc).

So I finished the pyramids right away, and have already finished the Colossus and am half way through the Great Library.

Sounds pretty good to me!

While I started on The Colossus in my game, too, there is definitely a conflict for resources (population, in this case) between The Pyramids and The Colossus. The first one has you hiring Specialists instead of working squares, while the second one has you working squares instead of hiring Specialists. Since we got a big discount on both Wonders, not to mention an early lead on Metal Casting, I think that we're okay building both of them in this game, as one can argue that one can still work the Seafood Resources for extra Commerce while using said Seafood to hire Specialists.

Still, in a game where you don't have the corresponding Wonder-production-enhancing Resources (Stone and Copper), you might do well to only pick one of those two Wonders and focus your strategy around whichever one that you pick.

I decided to skip the Hanging Gardens.

Since we have an Aqueduct as our Unique Building and since said building is a pretty good one to build, I couldn't help myself in trying to build The Hanging Gardens.

The more Cities that you have, the more that you will benefit.

Consider the scenario where you whip away each free population point that comes from building this Wonder: that's an easy 30 Hammers per City. For a Wonder that costs 300 Hammers, being discounted by Stone and a Forge, it will only cost us 300 / 2.25 = 134 Hammers. 134 / 30 is roughly 4.5. So, as long as I have more than 4.5 Cities, I will actually MAKE Hammers by completing this Wonder. It's one sneaky way of "distributing production" from a high-production City into several smaller Cities that could use additional production (via Slavery whipping).

With 7 Cities (8 Cities in 2 turns), building this Wonder nets me more Hammers than I will spend on building it, plus we'll get the equivalent of a free Health Resource in every City, in addition to the ever-useful Great Engineer Points (future Mining Inc, anyone?). Given these conditions, it is hard NOT to want to chase after this Wonder!

 

[nishant1911]

3 pts- dhoomstriker

2 pts- grashopa

1 pts- learner gamer

 

[learner gamer]

3 votes: Dhoomstriker. Seven cities and closing in on both The Colossus and HG. Teching civil service with aesthetics almost available and can still nab The Parthenon and later maybe The GL. Are you playing the same game as me?

2 votes: Grashopa. The Colossus is up, access to marble from Peri and choice of tech path means trifecta of MoM, Parthenon and GL can be built very soon.

1 vote: nishant1911. GL up and closing in on HG. Great manipulation of GPP to get GP in Edirne next. Only thing stopping this game getting two votes IMHO is that Giggles has settled on the island. Building wonders in Istanbul may well mean this city revolts to Ottoman rule eventually, but I&#8217;d rather be able to control its production earlier by having it available to settle.


EDIT: @kossin: would you mind if enKage and Benginal had the oppotunity to re-cast their votes, to give them the chance to consider Dhoomstriker's save (which was submitted after they voted), should they wish to do so?


@Dhoomstriker:

Spoiler :

That is one seriously good save! Is there any chance you might be able to elaborate a little more on your early build order (ie. settlers and workers) please? I ask because I&#8217;m looking to understand how you managed to get Ankara and Bursa settled around you &#8211; and still found time to settle the two blocking cities on the west coast. Did you simply stall the mids, build 4 settlers and then the accompanying workers for instance? Did you use the whip to remove unhappiness in Istanbul, or just accept the grumbling from the malcontents? BTW, can you recall when you built a WB for Istanbul...was it during that early stage...or did you leave it until after you&#8217;d gone into representation to boost happiness?

Two last points if you don&#8217;t mind. Firstly, what made you comfortable delaying The Colossus and Hanging Gardens (and the mids for that matter) for so long? I ask because I actually managed two other playthroughs after submitting my save, trying to get The Colossus and HG. On one occasion, I managed to get them both in Istanbul; on the other the AI beat me to The Colossus. As an aside, do you happen to know if there&#8217;s a guide somewhere listing at roughly what time the AI will build various wonders at this level? I&#8217;ve looked but can&#8217;t see anything on cfc.

Lastly, is it possible for you to expand a little on the tech path and tech trades you made please? I see from the log that you managed to secure a number of techs after first researching what looks like alphabet. If this is right, what was it that inspired you to tech alphabet before metal casting? Was it motivated by the willingness (coded in the xml) of the AI that we&#8217;ve met to trade? Was it to avoid persuading the AI to research metal casting (because you have it and since they&#8217;ve met you, they&#8217;d get a discount), as we discussed in this thread previously? From your discussion, it looks like you&#8217;ve done the same thing with teching aesthetics.

Indeed, I have to say that your save has actually made me a little annoyed at myself on two fronts - although I&#8217;m seriously enjoying all the learning. After all, I mentioned settling another city to work Istanbul&#8217;s pigs in my earlier post...and then ignored my own advice to block off Giggles, d&#8217;oh! (This is of course why I&#8217;m interested in knowing your early build order...I&#8217;m looking to learn how you managed to settle the two good sites near Istanbul and still managed to get those blocking cities up before Giggles tried to settle them.) In addition, I have to confess that I&#8217;m rueing my decision to tech aesthetics and literature after currency, to build the epics (without marble). Looking back, the much more obvious choice was to finish CoL and civil service...and then tech to literature powered by bureaucracy. Teching to civil service would also have represented a much more natural fit with TGLH...which, as you rightly point out, incentivises you to REx, because this path makes available courthouses at CoL should you need to control maintenance costs. It&#8217;s all so obvious in hindsight!

Thanks for any feedback you can give on the above. Once again, congratulations on a great save!