Merges/splits in Size Matters

[stachnie]

Because SO strongly suggested to continue in a separate thread, I start it here (I hope it will be O.K.).

A question to TB: which units are supposed to merge/split and which do not? In the older versions of C2C almost all units could do that, including workers and Great Hunter units. Now this is reduced. I will check if City Guards may do that (Edit: no, they cannot) - the situation I had described was about these buggy City Guards and it could be caused by loading a save from earlier SVN version (I was unable to split them back).

As for Hidden Nationality units: IIRC Ambushers, Asassins, Hashashins and so on are unable to merge/split, unlike Bandit Footpads and Riders.

S.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Because SO strongly suggested to continue in a separate thread, I start it here (I hope it will be O.K.).

A question to TB: which units are supposed to merge/split and which do not? In the older versions of C2C almost all units could do that, including workers and Great Hunter units. Now this is reduced.

Any units that have property controls should not be able to merge or split. For game balance with this in mind, and in consideration of if they can as effectively perform their 'role' if they were a larger group, Explorers cannot merge or split either. There's some other considerations as well, where game effects aren't capable of being made larger with larger size. Workers were added to the list recently due to both being able to include Ecologists and Park Rangers (property control units) and some bugs and difficult to mitigate complexities with workers that sacrifice themselves when they complete their builds.

This means the list of UnitCombats that cannot merge or split will be:
UNITCOMBAT_BIOLOGICAL (Biological Missiles)
UNITCOMBAT_SPY (Spies)
UNITCOMBAT_MISSILE (Generic Missiles)
UNITCOMBAT_WORKER (Workers)
UNITCOMBAT_SETTLER (Settlers)
UNITCOMBAT_DOOM (Doomsday Missiles)
UNITCOMBAT_MISSIONARY (Missionaries)
UNITCOMBAT_COMMANDER (Great Generals turned Field Commanders)
UNITCOMBAT_TRADE (Merchants)
UNITCOMBAT_HERO (Heroes)
UNITCOMBAT_DIPLOMAT (Diplomats)
UNITCOMBAT_COMBAT_WORKER (Combat Workers - not in game yet)
UNITCOMBAT_CRIMINAL (Criminals)
UNITCOMBAT_EXECUTIVE (Corporate Executives)
UNITCOMBAT_SEA_WORKER (Sea Workers)
UNITCOMBAT_EXPLORER (Recons and Hunters)
UNITCOMBAT_LAW_ENFORCEMENT (Law Enforcement)
UNITCOMBAT_RUFFIAN (Ruffians) - Note this wasn't included as it should've been and you've found a bug to say that they were able to merge/split. I overlooked this adjustment in the review - to compensate for their inability to merge or split in the face of the fact that they should have very strong military value, they have been given the ability to start off a cat higher than norm, making them the only unit line that does this. So they will seem quite strong but military units can still easily merge past them.
UNITCOMBAT_STRIKE_TEAM (Strike Teams)
UNITCOMBAT_ENTERTAINER (Entertainers)
UNITCOMBAT_ADMINISTRATOR (Administrators - lawyers and judges)
UNITCOMBAT_PRODIGY (Great People)
UNITCOMBAT_WILD (Wild Animals - this may change soon.)
UNITCOMBAT_SUBDUED (Subdued Animals)
UNITCOMBAT_IDEA (Tales of)
UNITCOMBAT_BALLISTIC (Another Missile category)
UNITCOMBAT_CAPTAIN (Another Leader category)
UNITCOMBAT_ATTACHE (Leader type units that attach themselves to other units)
UNITCOMBAT_CAPTIVE (Captives)
UNITCOMBAT_HEALTH_CARE (Healers - though I think this list may need to expand since there's probably still some healer units that don't have this designation.)

I will check if City Guards may do that (Edit: no, they cannot) - the situation I had described was about these buggy City Guards and it could be caused by loading a save from earlier SVN version (I was unable to split them back).

This brings up an interesting complexity. Some non-LE units can promote to LE units which can mean larger grouped LE units. This strongly suggests I may have to do something to enforce that they break down or merge up to the original size to be valid for upgrade to a unit that cannot merge or split. LE units haven't been able to merge or split for a long time so I'm very curious what previous unit type they were at some point that allowed them to merge.

As for Hidden Nationality units: IIRC Ambushers, Asassins, Hashashins and so on are unable to merge/split, unlike Bandit Footpads and Riders.

Again, thanks for pointing out the bug with Ruffians. Criminals and Strike Teams cannot merge or split. Criminals because they are an inverse property control unit with multiple means of sacrificing themselves for missions (which is usually a reason to designate inability to merge or split so as to avoid enabling gaming the sacrifice.)

Strike Teams cannot as a balance factor. They can get so very strong that SM helps to keep them in check by enforcing them into a standard size unit group (by standard I mean that when trained their strength is as it would be in the core). This makes them very useful at picking off weaker targets while making it difficult for them to take on the big army size units. It also enforces that they use quality to upgrade their SM values, which if they are used very strategically can easily earn their way up to.

Ruffians are more of a swarming unit of less disciplined, but somewhat stealthy types so they start off at a volume shift higher than core game strength but being limited to that makes them perfect to be a 'thorn' strategy unit that can present a threat to an opponent nation that must be handled with brute force. They can hold their own but ultimately are limited and enemy units that face them may be merged even larger since they cannot further merge themselves.

Law Enforcement units may frustrate some who like to use them as primary defenders. This currently is leaving cities without strongly valid melee city defenders and next version will address that. Since properties cannot be adjusted by merges and splits, this is flat necessary but also helps to keep them balanced against criminal units.

 

[stachnie]

Thanks for clarification. Most of this list make sense - e.g. a superdupper merged HN unit that may attack during peace would be overpowered (they could wipe entire civs without any diplo penalties and war weariness). Or I cannot imagine how to split a nuke or a missionary. Splitting settlers would make them overpowered (build one and you can settle 3, 9, 27 and so on cities), the same with subdued animals (catch 1 Horse and you would get 27 resources?), leaders, heroes etc. Splitting workers technically could be O.K. (if their work rate would decrease 3 times) but game-wise it would be a nonsense.

You would need to consider doing the same for some Culture units. Irish Inskillings (HN Riflemen), Herero Rebels (?), maybe some other units.

I am not sure about explorers and hunters - the early ones are very weak (0.67 STR) and not only Neanderthals but also strong_but_not_very-strong animals like Bisons eat them for breakfast, so their survivability is very short. In fact I tend to wait until the first Great Hunter, make a proper unit and it does the job (I love to play with Raging Barbarians, Barbarian Civs, Barbarian Generals etc.). It is the same with Outriggers - reduced HP and STR 2 makes them very vulnerable (although in my last game one of them managed to get two Quality promotions!).


S.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You would need to consider doing the same for some Culture units. Irish Inskillings (HN Riflemen), Herero Rebels (?), maybe some other units.

The Inniskillings sound like they'd be well to be made Ruffians and perhaps the Rebels as well. If someone could put together a complete list of cultural units that may need some current restructuring, I'd be more than happy to add those to the review process - I know I still need to address Hashishins properly. They're so plentiful and varied that it's tough to sort through.

I am not sure about explorers and hunters - the early ones are very weak (0.67 STR) and not only Neanderthals but also strong_but_not_very-strong animals like Bisons eat them for breakfast, so their survivability is very short. In fact I tend to wait until the first Great Hunter, make a proper unit and it does the job (I love to play with Raging Barbarians, Barbarian Civs, Barbarian Generals etc.). It is the same with Outriggers - reduced HP and STR 2 makes them very vulnerable (although in my last game one of them managed to get two Quality promotions!).

I make hunters survivable with stacks. I rarely go hunting without spiked club protection. Scouts stack well with hunters as well and with ForF on are quite good at distracting the first unit to come up to make trouble. But big overwhelming animals are going to occasionally eat the first few hunters out there. Not unlike how it would've really been. I've had some outriggers be enormously successful with quality buffs as well so I've no problem having the majority die in the waters with a few to survive to the point of heroism. That's really the balance I'm looking for.

Plus... something needs to be a common good target for those HN strike teams out there and hunters fit the bill nicely but wouldn't if mergable.

Hunters are also, with H&S on, a bit more capable of survival since some of the bigger threats won't see them unless right on top of them.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, so I got Inniskillings, Hashishins, Herero Rebels, and Navajo Rifleman added to the list of Strike Team and Ruffian units to adapt to the new abilities of these unit types. These edits have been or are being added to the SVN now. I've looked through the unit list but don't see any off hand that I've missed. Do you see any there that may have been?

 

[stachnie]

I remember some strange units called (IIRC) Clamath Riflemen. Strange, because they were HN but could not attack without declaring a war - I wondered what is a purpose for such an unit. You may check also Neanderthal Warriors - in the Jan 11 version it was possible to merge them.

There are also some Hunting units: Swazi, Siberian and some other Trackers. I do not know if it is possible to merge/split them now.

BTW: does have AI changed its early behaviour recently? I have noticed that it is more difficult to get Druidism at Immortal now. And in my present game some civ built Mesa Verde in the first turn - I wonder how it was possible.


S.

 

[Noriad2]

BTW: does have AI changed its early behaviour recently? I have noticed that it is more difficult to get Druidism at Immortal now. And in my present game some civ built Mesa Verde in the first turn - I wonder how it was possible.


S.

Did you "regenerate map" a few times before starting your game for real?

 

[stachnie]

Did you "regenerate map" a few times before starting your game for real?

No, but I entered WB and edited a few things (like I made sure that all civs on my continent start next to a coast, removed some ice etc.).

S.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I remember some strange units called (IIRC) Clamath Riflemen. Strange, because they were HN but could not attack without declaring a war - I wondered what is a purpose for such an unit. You may check also Neanderthal Warriors - in the Jan 11 version it was possible to merge them.

There are also some Hunting units: Swazi, Siberian and some other Trackers. I do not know if it is possible to merge/split them now.

BTW: does have AI changed its early behaviour recently? I have noticed that it is more difficult to get Druidism at Immortal now. And in my present game some civ built Mesa Verde in the first turn - I wonder how it was possible.


S.

I'll take a look at the Clamath Rifleman and now that you mention it, the Neanderthal Warrior does need a review.

There is a known bug that some cities get planted and suddenly have a huge amount of overflowing production. It's been very difficult to find since its non-repeatable apparently.

 

[Noriad2]

No, but I entered WB and edited a few things (like I made sure that all civs on my continent start next to a coast, removed some ice etc.).

S.

I've also had such things before (AI's building wonders at the end of the first turn) but only when I peeked at the map before via world builder. So perhaps the bug is caused in World Builder? However, the bug does not appear consistently and if you reload the initial autosave it does not repeat. It is not just wonders though, if you look at AI cities in World Builder, they sometimes also have a large number of buildings in turn 2.

 

[stachnie]

This was Monte Verde, not Mesa Verde I wonder what may be the reason - maybe in some cases the production index instead of 0 gets some rubbish from memory?

In my present game I have noticed some other bug (or at least something that had never happened before). I discovered Seafaring (trade on rivers, lakes and coast), then I attacked other civs at my continent. When I captured one of the AI cities and kept it, it was connected with my capital (both cities are coastal ones - this was one of the reasons to use WB at the beginning). Then I captured and razed the other one. At some moment I lost connection with my capital - I guess this may be caused by a few barbarian cities that emerged along the coast. However, in my previous games there was no such effect.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If you don't have the ability to trade across more than coast and an enemy presence blocks the coastal route, you do lose the trade connection.

And yeah, there's something not quite right about how some source of production is coming in for a city when initialized but I haven't been able to find it and its not replicable so its very frustrating - even when you have caught the situation saving before the city is placed. This is leaving very few ways to narrow in on where the problem could be.

 

[stachnie]

It seems also blocks of ice may block trade route. When I sent two outriggers in two opposite directions to grab sea goody huts (I forgot their name) I noticed that I forgot to remove one ice block from coast (usually I do that around all continents before starting the game). I deleted it, left the WB and (perhaps next turn) I noticed that the trade route had been restored. So I could send a settler to some other place (I planned to buld a city at the other coast where it would connect the capital and the other cities).

And yes, small bugs difficult to catch may be irritating. Like in programs to calculate/simulate something: if the result is very strange (e.g. a few orders of magnitude different than the expectations) you know that something is wrong. If the difference is 10%, you may overlook the bug.

S.

 

[Harrier]

It seems also blocks of ice may block trade route. .

If your ship is not capable of breaking through ice or sailing round it - ice should block trade routes.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If your ship is not capable of breaking through ice or sailing round it - ice should block trade routes.

100% agree.

JosEPh