Meth01: Culture, with no Wonders

ChrTh said:
With only 10 cities, you're most likely going to need to build Temples in Medina in order to be eligible to build the third Cathedral for each religion.

I agree, but at the time (and due to the date) I decided to go with a cathedral before building the other three temples in Medina. Once the cathedral is finished Medina should build those three temples. IMO the +50% culture is worth more than +1 cpt per temple (+3 cpt for all three temples).

Definitely agree on Free Speech. As you said, its a no-brainer.
 
Turn 220 (1550 AD)
Mecca finishes: Maceman
Najran finishes: Buddhist Temple
Saxon grows: 4
Contact made: Japanese Empire

Turn 221 (1555 AD)
Mecca begins: Maceman
Najran begins: Caravel
Hinduism has spread: Kufah
Saxon finishes: Jewish Temple
Khurasan grows: 3

Turn 222 (1560 AD)
Saxon begins: Hindu Missionary
Mecca finishes: Maceman

Turn 223 (1565 AD)
Mecca begins: Maceman

Turn 224 (1570 AD)
Tech learned: Education
Mecca finishes: Maceman
Medina finishes: Jewish Synagogue
Kufah finishes: Courthouse

Turn 225 (1575 AD)
Research begun: Liberalism
Mecca begins: University
Kufah begins: Hindu Missionary
Medina begins: Christian Temple
Najran finishes: Caravel
Saxon finishes: Hindu Missionary

Turn 226 (1580 AD)
Najran begins: Buddhist Missionary
Saxon begins: Hindu Temple
Najran's borders expand
Saxon finishes: Hindu Temple

Turn 227 (1585 AD)
Saxon begins: Library
Hinduism has spread: Najran
Damascus finishes: Jewish Synagogue
Baghdad finishes: Buddhist Stupa
Kufah finishes: Hindu Missionary
Basra finishes: Granary

Turn 228 (1590 AD)
Damascus begins: University
Baghdad begins: University
Kufah begins: Settler
Basra begins: Caravel
Hinduism has spread: Khurasan
Mecca finishes: University
Medina finishes: Christian Temple
Najran grows: 8
Najran finishes: Buddhist Missionary
Saxon grows: 5

Turn 229 (1595 AD)
Mecca begins: Maceman
Medina begins: Buddhist Temple
Najran begins: Courthouse

forgot to load up the caravel, sorry.
greeks to the west.
toku dont like us much. no deals, not even borders.
there is another caravel at the yard, and a settler to fill up the south.
sparce, yet insistent, alien caravel movement.
hence my focous on more troops than i wanted.
did some universities.
were no longer last in score.
 
Requires Hindu Missionaries:
Basra

Requires Temples:
Recall that three temples are required to build one cathedral. Since the cathedral grants +50% culture we need to get all of our temples built.

Buddhism: Khurasan*, Medina*
Christianity: Basra, Khurasan, Saxon
Hinduism: Basra, Khurasan, Kufah, Narjan
Judaism: Khurasan, Medina
* - Notes the city is currently working on a temple.

Current Culture:
Baghdad: 36 cpt
Damascus: 50 cpt
Medina: 33 cpt

If possible build cathedrals first as the +50% is the highest culture producing improvement. After the cathedrals the temples become priority. Medina is still shy three temples.

We need to get all these temples up so we can start benefiting from the cathedrals. I suggest if feasible to whip some of these temples up. It’s getting really late in the game so we need to start really hammering on culture.

We also need to build ships to hook up our trade routes with the AI’s.

Tech Trades:
Both Qin and Alex have a tech apiece that is different. We need to do a little tech swapping if possible.

Roster:
Methos
Soul Warrior- Just Played
Conroe- Up
MeteorPunch- On Deck
ChrTh
 
Meth01_1595AD_Start.JPG


Situation Assessment: The spreading of our 4 religions is looking pretty good. The last holdout is to get Hinduism spread to Basra. And, as Methos pointed out in his post, we are not doing too bad on the construction of the Temples. There is still some work to be done, though. Some of the Cathedrals have also been built. It looks like Medina has one, Damascus has three, and Baghdad has two.

I am very concerned about the culture growth in Mecca. It is still outpacing our three cultural cities.

Meth01_1595AD_Culture.JPG


Militarily, we are still weak. We have 6 Axemen and 6 Macemen. Fortunately, nobody is upset with us at the moment; they are all cautious. Unfortunately, nobody was interested in trading techs with us. The best deal offered was Paper for 120 gold by Alexander. At those prices, he will have to research it himself.

And, it looks like we have a new barb city! Hurrian, a size 2 barb city, has spawned up in the icy wasteland. It is being defended by 2 Longbowmen; however, we have a contingent of Macemen enroute. It will not be much of a city, but I will probably go ahead and keep it.

In the science department, Liberalism will be known in 10 turns. Unfortunately, the free tech that comes with discovering it first has already be taken. The Free Speech civic, with its double culture growth, will be nice, though.

Objectives: Build some temples and train some missionaries. Capture a barb city and then found one of our own.

Turn 0 - 1595AD I preempt the Caravel build in Basra for a Christian Temple. I'm not sure if this is a wise idea or not.

IBT: Alexander's golden age comes to an end.

Turn 1 - 1600AD: Saxon completes its Library. I start it on a Hindu Missionary.

Turn 2 - 1605AD: Mecca trains another Maceman. I queue up a Pikeman, next, since any AI landing will probably include a Knight or two.

Saxon completes the missionary. That was quick! Evidently a forest chop came in. There is enough overflow to shave a turn off of a Christian Temple. The Hindu Missionary is sent on its way to Basra.

Turn 3 - 1610AD: Mecca trains a Pikeman, start on another Maceman. Medina completes a Buddhist Temple and starts construction of a Christian Cathedral. Meanwhile, another Hindu Missionary is trained in Najran. Another Caravel is queued up, next.

Turn 4 - 1615AD: Saxon completes the Christian Temple, its last temple. Construction of a Caravel is queued up. Meanwhile, Khurasan completes its first Temple and starts on a Hindu Temple. Once it is complete, another Hindu Cathedral can begin construction.

Hinduism failed to spread in Basra. A rather stupid mistake on my part. It is a pop 3 city and I was trying to put a 4th religion into it. :nono: Unfortunately, it will be 21 turns before the city grows.

Turn 5 - 1620AD: Another Maceman in Mecca; start on another Pikeman, next. Damascus completes its University. No other cultural improvements to build, so I start it on a Barracks. Kufah, meanwhile, has finally trained that last Settler. Construction can now begin on a Hindu Temple. The Settler heads towards the southern peninsula.

Our forces have finally arrived at the barb city of Hurrian. Unpromoted, our Macemen have a 25% chance of winning. With a City Raider I promotion, it only goes up to 60%. The first Maceman dies. The second Maceman is barely victorious; he is 0.4/8 health. The third Maceman pillages 102 gold from Hurrian before burning it to the ground! I had originally planned on keeping the city; but because of its location, I figured it would be difficult to defend if we are attacked by an AI.

Meth01_1620AD_BarbCity.JPG


With the extra gold in the chancery, I up our research to 70%. This will shave a turn off of the Liberalism research. We are now spending -11gpt.

IBT: Washington stops by with an offer of cow for gold. We've got a few minor health nuicances, so I go for it.

Meth01_1625AD_TradeGW.JPG


A barb Galley has pillaged our fishing nets at Kufah. Starvation sets in.

Turn 6 - 1625AD: Baghdad completes its University. Again, it has built all cultural enhancing building, so I start it on a Barracks as well.

I head our troops back to our borders, since they will heal faster at home.

Turn 7 - 1630AD: Complete one Pikeman in Mecca and start another. Najran completes its Caravel and starts on a Hindu Temple. Kufah completes its Hindu Temple and starts construction on an unplanned Work Boat. Meanwhile, the Caravel from Najran goes barb hunting.

IBT: The barb galley attacks our Caravel. It sinks after doing slight damage to our Caravel.

Turn 8 - 1635AD: Damascus completes its Barracks and begins a Hindu Cathedral. Basra completes its Christian Temple and resumes work on the preempted Caravel.

Anjar is founded on the southern peninsula and begins constructing a Lighthouse. City Maintenace is a bit pricey, so I lower the research slider back down to 60%. We are still drawing -9gpt from the treasury.

Meth01_1635AD_Anjar.JPG


Our Caravel returns to port for healing. Meanwhile, a stray Buddhist Missionary boards the ship.

Turn 9 - 1640AD: Mecca completes another Pikeman and starts yet another one. Baghdad completes its Barracks and begins constructing a Courthouse. Najran completes its Hindu Temple and also begins constructing a Courthouse. Kufah completes its Work Boat and begins a University.

Turn 10 - 1645AD: Mecca trains a Pikeman and starts training another one. Saxon completes a Caravel and begins a Courthouse.

Liberalism has been learned. I did not select the next technology. I shall leave this to the discretion of MP. There are several choices to choose from, including Guilds (Knights) and Gunpowder (Muskets). Printing Press is also available for the extra commerce. Unfortunately, there are no real tech trading opportunities.

Liberalism has given us access to a couple of new civics. Free Religion would improve our foreign relations but we lose the +25% construction bonus. Free Speech has double culture growth but we lose the Bureaucracy boost at Mecca.

Despite all of the troops that I produced out of Mecca, we are still dead last in the size of our army. I concentrated on Pikemen to counter any potential Knights that may land on our shores. Every coastal city needs at least one Pikeman. Please note that 2 of the Pikemen that I trained are on GoTo orders.

We now have 3 barracks' to train troops. Mecca, Damascus, and Baghdad. These are our 3 highest shield producing cities. Another barracks and the Heroic Epic (+100% military prod) need to be built at either Najran or Kufah.

Meth01_1645AD_Cities.JPG


Required Temples:
Buddhism:
Christianity: Khurasan
Hinduism: (Basra or Anjar)**, Khurasan*
Judaism: Khurasan, Medina
* - Notes the city is currently working on a temple.

** Hinduism has not spread to either Basra or Anjar. Basra will need to grow before it can take another religion. A Hindu Missionary has arrived at Anjar, which has no religion at the moment.

Required Cathedrals:
Buddhism: Medina
Christianity: Medina*, Baghdad
Hinduism: Medina, Damascus*
Judaism: Baghdad
* - Notes the city is currently working on a Cathedral.

Meth01_1645AD_Temples.JPG


Current Culture:
Mecca: 6796 @ 63cpt
Medina: 1605 @ 34cpt
Damascus: 1779 @ 57cpt
Baghdad: 1380 @ 42cpt
 
Conroe said:
Hinduism [B]failed[/B] to spread in Basra. A rather stupid mistake on my part. It is a pop 3 city and I was trying to put a 4[Size="1"]th[/Size] religion into it. :nono: Unfortunately, it will be 21 turns before the city grows.[/QUOTE]

I did not know this. So are you saying that a city can only have as many religions or less as the number of population it has? Or are you saying that you cannot attempt another religious influence until the city grows? Please explain as I have heard nothing about this.

Mecca will indeed be a problem culturally. IMO we need to really hesitate on any cultural improvements there. That includes such things as universities. I'm hoping that once we start building culture in our culture cities it'll help bypass Mecca. If it comes down to a problem in the end we'll have to manipulate it so our remaining two cities hit 50k on the exact same turn. This will mean four culture cities but at least we'll have our primary three.

Speaking of this it might be wise if our culture cities have nothing to build to maybe build culture for a little while. It couldn't hurt.

IMO [b]Free Speech[/b] is definitely worth it more than Beauracracy. Our three cities are the primary, not Mecca. We need to definitely switch to Free Speech.

IMO [b]Free Religion[/b] wouldn't be a very wise switch, at least not now. Realize that Mecca is the holy city for three different religions. If we do Free Religion than the other two religions in Mecca will also grant their +5 cpt. Meaning Mecca will jump +10 cpt if we switch.

So for now only go with Free Speech.

[b]Roster:[/b]
Methos
Soul Warrior
Conroe- Just Played
MeteorPunch- [b]Up[/b]
ChrTh- On Deck
 
I don't think we need to worry about Mecca. I'd have to double-check, but I suspect that even if we continue building cultural buildings in Mecca, it won't hit 50,000 before the end of the game. We're going to have to great artist rush the other three cities.
 
Methos said:
I did not know this. So are you saying that a city can only have as many religions or less as the number of population it has? Or are you saying that you cannot attempt another religious influence until the city grows? Please explain as I have heard nothing about this.
I was saying the first. But, now that you bring it up, I guess it is only an assumption on my part. I really don't know for sure. I just kind of always assumed that to spread a religion that you needed somebody to spread it to. In our case, Basra has 3 religions and it has 3 people. Who is going to get that 4th religion? Is that the way it really works? Well, after your questions, I'm not really sure anymore.

Methos said:
IMO Free Religion wouldn't be a very wise switch, at least not now. Realize that Mecca is the holy city for three different religions. If we do Free Religion than the other two religions in Mecca will also grant their +5 cpt. Meaning Mecca will jump +10 cpt if we switch.
This is a really good point. Expanding on it, maybe we should convert to fill in the blank. I forget which one, but one of our religions was founded in Medina. Switching would move +4cpt from Mecca to Medina. Ignore this if that has already been done.

Something that I forgot to mention in my report. Mecca should be popping another GL pretty soon. There is a 2/3rds chance it will be a prophet. If there are no better uses for him, then merging him to Medina would give it a couple more hammers.
 
Conroe said:
This is a really good point. Expanding on it, maybe we should convert to fill in the blank. I forget which one, but one of our religions was founded in Medina. Switching would move +4cpt from Mecca to Medina. Ignore this if that has already been done.

Christianity is the religion that was founded in Medina, so that's probably a good idea.
 
I'm not sure we need to worry about Mecca's culture.

There are 201 turns left. For Mecca to hit 50,000 in 2030 AD, it needs to be earning 215cpt. It's at 63 right now. Even with the 100% boost from Free Speech, it's still only 126. That's a leeway of 45 cpt raw that we can still add to the town.
 
1645 set research to economics. i don't think we have enough cottages to benefit from printing press.
1650
1655
1660 Washington's boats are coming to our northlands to settle.
1665
1670 meet Germany and sign Open Borders.
1675 Mecca builds Heroic Epic.
1690 dangit...Great Prophet born in Mecca. Contact the English...no open borders.

- I switched us to Hinduism because all cities are now Hindu, but Anjar lacked Buddhism.
 
Ack, why haven't we switched to Free Speech?

Ummm...why is Damascus building National Epic?
 
Please everyone, remember NO WONDERS!, not even national wonders.

Switch to Free Speech ASAP please. And remove the Epic from the queue entirely. It only has one turn left so I don't want it to accidently be built.

I"m glad you noticed. I hadn't looked at the save. Thanks.
 
Turn 0 -- 1700 AD

Damascus: Granary for the health

I still think Free Religion might be better, but I stick with Organized. I'm also going to go with Christianity ... but I have to wait 3 turns. Besides Free Speech, I'm also going to put in Hereditary Rule to help Mecca get happy. That should offset the additional cost.

Before revolution
Medina 46 cpt
Damascus 69 cpt
Baghdad 42 cpt

After revolution
Medina 69 cpt
Damasus 92 cpt
Baghdad 63 cpt

Baghdad starts working a Medina farm tile so it can grow again. I'll switch out once we get some windmills built.

Turn 1 -- 1705 AD

St. Augustine is all about the benjamins. We rank second.
Explorin'

Turn 2 -- 1710 AD

Mecca finishes Grocer, starts Christian Missionary.
Khurasan finishes Buddhist Temple (or was it Hindu?) and starts Christian Temple

Germans have Cavalry? We're behind on tech. The only ones who don't have Liberalism are the Japanese, and lord knows they suck. Expect lots of trading when Banking comes in next turn.

Turn 3 -- 1715 AD

Banking comes in, Economics starts automatically. I'll revisit after I finish trading.

Mecca: Christian Missionary > Buddhist Missionary
Damascus: Granary > Courthouse
Najran: Worker > Harbor
Kufah: Aqueduct > Bank

We now have 5 million people.

*sigh* Everyone already has Banking, and Economics for that matter. I stick with Economics anyway for the Free Market.

We convert to Christianity. Medina up to 81 cpt.


Turn 4 -- 1720 AD

Mecca: Buddhist Missionary > Jewish Missionary


Turn 5 -- 1725 AD

Mecca: Jewish Missionary > Bank
Medina: Buddhist Stupa > Jewish Temple --> Hindu Mandir
Baghdad: Market > Walls
Basra: Hindu Temple > Forge

Anjar converts to Christianity


Turn 6 -- 1730 AD
Saxon: Harbor > Theatre.

Why, you might ask?

This is why:
METH01D.jpg

Buddhism spreads to Berlin :D
Buddhism spreads to Anjar, disproving what Conroe thought about pop size


Turn 7 -- 1735 AD
Baghdad: Walls > Castle (for a turn)

Mecca celebrates We Love the Monarch Day! :D

Judaism spreads to Anjar.


Turn 8 -- 1740 AD

Damascus: Courthouse > Walls
Najran: Harbor > Lighthouse
Medina: Finishes Jewish Temple, starts Hindu Mandir
Baghdad pauses the Castle build to start Jewish Synagogue

Turn 9 -- 1745 AD

Damascus: Walls > Castle


Turn 10 -- 1750 AD

Saxon: Theatre > University


Ok, it looks like there's only 3 cathedrals left to build, and two are in the process of being built. Khurasan finishes its Christian Temple next turn, and then Baghdad can build its Cathedral and we're done.

Economics is due next turn. I've been running science at 70% to stockpile more beakers. We're behind in tech and it's easy to see why: the other two continents are separated by a 1 tile coast. Focus on cultural for the big 3 (don't forget: Castles generate Culture). Get scientific and financial otherwise; barring massive warfare on the other side of the world, we're in danger of losing to the Space Race (and we don't have the ability to intervene).

Also, start building military once you run out of good buildings. We can't enough. Oh, and a galleon fleet with missionaries is a good idea too. Well, you get the idea.

Here's the save:
View attachment 112010
 
One More Thing: We need to get Forbidden Palace and Oxford built at some point. There are some good production cities in the South that can do the FP. Oxford we can get away with at Mecca (need a couple more universities first).
 
Just out of curiosity what is legendary culture? I haven't a single cultural victory in [civ4]. Mainly because I've haven't tried. :(
 
Tubby Rower said:
Just out of curiosity what is legendary culture? I haven't a single cultural victory in [civ4]. Mainly because I've haven't tried. :(

50K. Not an easy proposition.
 
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