[MH2] - Monarchs take on Deity

[babybluepants]

The mission statement:

I was reading the latest Deity succession game (Deity Spying, still ongoing), played by Kossin, Shyuhe and Obsolete, where Obsolete rants on and on about how monarch-newb they're playing, how monarch playerlike their land improvent looks, how monarch rookie their workers are working and so on and so on. So, let's show 'em how REAL monarch rookies play deity!

 

[Stochastic]

Oh no! Ze Germans!

As happyturtle (which is joining the space program @ Sep 24 ) said, whip archers and axes.
I'll look at the save this evening and see if I have anything smart to add. Knowing me, probably not

EDIT:
My 1.98 cents -
1. Don't panic
2. Move axe 2 (the less fortified) from Tiwa to the mined hills 1NE, so hopefully the german axe will attack that. We can't just let that axe pillage our improvements. It takes us too long to build them. Move a quecha from Tiwa (the non-fortified one) to be near Machu Picchu. It will go in the city if needed, since axe 3 is going to Cuzco, of course.
3. As stochastic said - no reason to build GLib. If we don't intend to whip Tiwa before the GS comes - switch to archer, otherwise to axe.
4. We might want to whip cuzco for 2 population, since whipping just 1 will still allow it to grow unhappy next turn. I suggest switching to walls, waiting 1 turn, and then whipping the walls into the barracks, and from there continue with the archer and axes.

I don't think whipping archers is either efficient or necessary. I would prefer to slow build those and use them as more hammer efficient city defenders. I do think that axes are credible whip targets though when necessary.
1) I agree, and it fits in with your avatar too! So extra points for roll playing!
2)That seems like a good plan for unit movement, we should also remember that we have enough cash to upgrade a Quecha (which will keep its combat promo). While I don't normally advocate using cash to upgrade, in this circumstance I think it is justified.
3) I'd prefer to not whip out the scientists, while it may help our initial defense, I think loosing the academy (which is quite late as it is) would be conceding any chance of keeping up with the tech.
4) I'd rather avoid whipping a wall in Cuzco, and really in any city until that city is explicitly threatened. But we could do what Mikehendi suggested and put 4 hammers into an axe and then 2 pop whip it to finish off the barracks.

@Babybluepants:
Thanks for pointing out what was on the front page, this:

I haven't read the past details of this game, cept this page.

was a rather telling statement. Also I believe that, regardless of how things turn out, we can now call this SG a success

That said, Obsolete's points about our disorganised long term strategy are almost certainly valid despite the tone. I get the feeling that we should have had a goal to work towards over more than two or three sets from the very beginning. That could have been expand to X cities and Y workers, or build wonder A, but having one thing to work towards would have probably helped keep each set streamlined with less wastage. But then, that is why we are still learning!

 

[obsolete]

Wow, what a nice friendly post without a single shred of useful advice in it!

I was not trying to be cryptic or hiding the dots for anyone to connect regarding the most important resource in the entire game. But since you seem to have missed it, I'll re-iterate.

MARBLE!

There were a lot other issues I had, but didn't mention since I knew there is always someone who gets offended. Anyhow, I'll keep quiet about it so I don't influence any future decisions. Will keep tabs on this to see how you are doing though. Good luck anyway.

 

[Stochastic]

Mike? I think you're up, are you still playing?

 

[Asaf]

I don't think whipping archers is either efficient or necessary.

I agree, never said we should whip archers. I prefer to have axes instead.

1) I agree, and it fits in with your avatar too! So extra points for roll playing!

Glad you noticed

4) I'd rather avoid whipping a wall in Cuzco, and really in any city until that city is explicitly threatened. But we could do what Mikehendi suggested and put 4 hammers into an axe and then 2 pop whip it to finish off the barracks.

I was just pointing out that cuzco is going to pass its happiness threshold in 1 turn, whether we don't whip it or we whip it for 1 pop. The axe is probably a better idea than the walls.

 

[Mikehendi]

yes, I'll play in about 7-12 hours, i managed to be up in all 3 sg's im in at the same time

sorry for the delay!

 

[Mikehendi]

Well, I've played 12 turns (until t105, 250BC), and will make an extra-detailed report for this very exciting turnset! I didn't say it went good or bad, but it was very exciting!

2 Thruths and 2 lies (in random order of course )

1. During the war we have built TGL! No, really!
2. We managed to take one of Bismarcks city in a counterattack! No, really!
3. We've lost NO cities to bismarcks 10 units swords/axes/HORSE ARCHERS SOD + wandering units. No, really!
4. We've bribed Sury to attack Bismarck, and he actually took one of bismarcks cities on turn 1! No, really!

I'd like some votes on this, please!

EDIT:
Report is up!

Please VOTE first and only then read the report below

 

[Soirana]

Well, I've played 12 turns (until t105, 250BC), and will make an extra-detailed report for this very exciting turnset! I didn't say it went good or bad, but it was very exciting!

2 Thruths and 2 lies (in random order of course )

1. During the war we have built TGL! No, really!
2. We managed to take one of Bismarcks city in a counterattack! No, really!
3. We've lost NO cities to bismarcks 10 units swords/axes/HORSE ARCHERS SOD + wandering units. No, really!
4. We've bribed Sury to attack Bismarck, and he actually took one of bismarcks cities on turn 1! No, really!

I'd like some votes on this, please!

i'd guess 3 and 4 are truth, which cities you lost?

 

[Mikehendi]

Turn 93

I set research to 0% on currency
- we might have an academy in 10-20 turns (if bis doesn't take it lol-smiley (damn picture limit stick-out-tongue smiley lol-smiley))
- The cash could be used to emergency-upgrade quecha's to axes
- I can't really remember if we've decided on a techpath blush-smiley

Set up Cuzco for a whip:

Tiwanaku's gonna slowbuild it:

Machu's gonna finish the archer and then will be set up to whip:

Turn 94

I get a message... Ollysomething can no longer continue on an axeman... WTH??? Our copper got pillaged? Damn it!

Spoiler :

Luckily it turned out that Olly was only disconnected from the trade group... phew

Bismarcks unit leaves again... He just stole our worker! Filthy low human-like AI! Screw you!

Cuzco whips the axe-->barracks

Well, as bismarcks no longer a threat, I get this chop into TGL instead of units:

Turn 95
Well, I was wrong... of course, I did expect some more time however...

Turn 96
Even more units! Machu 2popwhipped an axe in the mean time, you can see how it's set up in the screenies if you pay attention

Turn 97
Whoever said we should go Org.rel. is KING, because it allows for this:

.

That might come in handy before the attack! After upgrading a quecha (dumb move, but am inexperienced with warring, can't really estimate the number of units we need) We now have 6 axes + 1 archer behind WALLS defending when he attacks!

I've just switched off quick combat!

Turn 98

Trade pig and ivory to sury for clam, dye and fish (begged the fish). Cuzco needs the health and the happy will compensate for the abusive whipping I'm doing this turnset.
PIC REMOVED DUE TO PIC LIMIT

I decide to try for the great library, despite it being a threathened city in a deity AI war. Wat can I say, the place has no barracks!

Bismarck also didn't attack, but turned around! I move 2 axes and the archer in the direction of Tiwanaku, they can get to either city next turn.

Turn 99

I... can't remember what I did... Sorry!

I did move the units back to Machu Pichu, because:

Note the horse archer! Pillage danger! Worker nab danger!

He's up against our:

Another whip set-up:

.

I've must have done this like 4-6 times or so during the set!

Anniversary turn! (100)
Bismarck gives us a present for our anniversary turn:

DIEDADADADIEDADIE! None of his units had >10% odds!

This is left of his stack:

I move some units out of Machu again, to try to get him to suicide the rest on machu.

Turn 101
Due to celebrating the war success, I completely forgot to take screenies or notes whatsoever!

Turn 102
I assume bis' stack moved next to macu pichu last turn, because now he attacks.

Note how THE counter unit to the horse archer falls, while defending behind walls. sigh.

All that's left is for me to mop up this:

A shot of our empire after our glorious victory:

I only now remembered to whip the terrace in Chehalis...

Turn 103

Ah.. I guess I didn't gave it to her back then. I do accept this trade however, as it could be one of those now-or-never trades. We ain't giving away stuff, so I expect (read: desperately hope) no -4 trade worst enemy penalties...

Converting 34 hammers into 115 soon-to-be gold:

Bit of MMing in tiwanaku to get the GS out 1 turn faster:

Bismarcks willing to talk, he asks for peace this:

I try to counter with this in idle hope:

And he accepts!!! WOOHOO!

In my victory dance I beg 70 gold from pacal, but he refuses.

Turn 104
Wonderful days, ladies and gentlemen... Wonderful wonderful days!

Sury and Shaka are the only ones without Aest. so I trade this:

For HR, and this

To get Shaka pleased. That fails however, he only gives us +1 diplo which is not enough.

I OB with bismarck to start patching up old wounds (old...Damn-I-hate-not-being-able-to-use-smileys-due-to-pic-limit-smiley!). I revolt to HR on the last turn before the academy is up!

Turn 105
I didn't do much but put research back to 100% and

Before academy 80 bpt @100%
After academy: 96 bpt @100%

Wow, that's a bummer! Only 16 bpt extra @100%, while we break even at 30-40% or so!

Pacal is really frightening:

Come on man, Music, Feudalism AND construction???

I'm curious to see btw if he has a lot of cash next turn, implying he just missed TGL!

BTW we now have a total of

10 Axemen
5 Quecha's
4 Archers

and...

3 Workers!

We could use a few more. 1 can be whipped from the former barb hatty-blocking city in a turn or 2, but I'll leave fixing the land up to the next player! Good luck!

EDIT: Of course I forgot the save... It is becoming my standard to forget it!

I put the overflow in Tiwanaku to go into Nat. Epic this turn, but we might not want to do that. I think we should, we could really start pumping out Scientists there, and early Sci's are SO much better then late-game GP's. It only takes 6 turns to build!

And my apologies for I creating the academy without further discussion... It doesn't give us that much now, so a bulb might have been better in retrospect. We will have more GS's very soon though, hopefully I didn't screw up trading possibilities.

EDIT 2:

I f*cking CAN'T believe what we've pulled off! I went into the set thinking it would end here, I mean WTH! I'm all dazed and confused now.

I have to confess I had to reload from the autosave once, as I misclicked and accidentaly gave Bismarck a city for peace. I reloaded the previous turn, and did everything exactly the same (well, except giving the city then).

I don't know how fanatic you guys are on not reloading, but I'm NOT willing to destroy one of the most fun and exciting games I've ever played due to a stupid misclick. Executive decision.

 

[happyturtle]

2 and 3 are true? *goes to read report now*

D'oh! I thought 'TGL' was 'The Great Lighthouse' which would have been rather hard for us to build without a port city Otherwise, I might have guessed better.

Well played.

 

[Asaf]

Haven't read you report yet.
I vote on 3 and 4.

You forgot:
5. We have passed 2 other civilizations in score! No, really!
6. Bismarck became our vassal! No, really!

EDIT:
Read the report. Excellent turn set!

Spoiler :

We were lucky on TGL, but I don't think an academy was a mistake. If we do intend to win this game eventually, this is a better move. And unless we can bulb a good tech which fits what we need (or can be traded for one) with the next GS's, we should settle them with the academy.

So... where do we go from here? As Obsolete politely pointed out - we need a goal.
(My initial goal was surviving til the AD's, which looks like is going to happen...)

I'll only look at the save later today or tomorrow so I can't really see what's going on in the world, but it seems to me we have some more exploring to do. Are there more places we can settle?
How are we city-number-wise comparing to the AI's?

(Sorry, only questions, no suggestions for now)

 

[Stochastic]

Well, I've played 12 turns (until t105, 250BC), and will make an extra-detailed report for this very exciting turnset! I didn't say it went good or bad, but it was very exciting!

2 Thruths and 2 lies (in random order of course )

1. During the war we have built TGL! No, really!
2. We managed to take one of Bismarcks city in a counterattack! No, really!
3. We've lost NO cities to bismarcks 10 units swords/axes/HORSE ARCHERS SOD + wandering units. No, really!
4. We've bribed Sury to attack Bismarck, and he actually took one of bismarcks cities on turn 1! No, really!

I'd like some votes on this, please!

EDIT:
Report is up!

Please VOTE first and only then read the report below

Well I'd hope for 1 and 3, but 1 is not going to happen, and neither is 2 since we don't have enough units, so 3 and 4.

Edit after reading report:
Wow! I'm not sure how that happened, it looks like the AI decision making algorithm some how saved our bacon by getting Bizzy to keep changing his mind. Unfortunately I don't have time to look at the save as I have family over, but I'll try to get something up later. Academy was probably the right choice, we just need A LOT more workers to make our empire efficient. The NE and failure gold Parth are also both good calls, (esp with the lucky tin), but will help pull our tech out of the hole. One thought is that we should be trying to trade for Currency, not self tech it. Maybe if we go for compass or drama we can get some major brokering around.

 

[shyuhe]

Lurker comment:

Bismarck doesn't have super high attack courage (compared to say Monty), so it's good to move units out of cities to bait him into attacking. Otherwise they will just pile up in the woods next to a city until it's an indefensibly large stack. Well played and nice escape

The academy is the proper move here. You should get a second GS from Tiwanaku pretty quickly, especially if you build the NE.

 

[stimpyhoek]

Fantastic. Well played. Tense stuff then a glorious victory and Glib. I really thought on deity if some-one attacked u would get mashed up. U rock. Get all the failure wonder gold u can. And yeah ur still not rinsing the trades. Super cool tho.

 

[pholkhero]

wow, 3 days and i' mstill not up! great set tho ~

and WTH are power hammers?? mario 3??

 

[Stochastic]

OK, had a chance to look at the save, so here are my thoughts.

Techs
We should hold off on trading lit until we get some gold for it, as I don't think PH+Med are worth it by themselves.
We should definitely swap to from currency as research, but I'm not sure what should replace it. Pascal has drama, but it would open up a Philo bulb with our next GS. Compass on the other hand might be able to get MC from Pascal and Currency from someone else+other brokerage.
Fortunately we will soon have enough eps to keep a watch on Pascal's next tech.

Units
Good to see some build up, but I think we should send some defense to the Hatty frontier to keep her as honest as a Deity can be.
We should also go and destroy the Barb city to the NE of Cuzco, I think we should use our axe with the most xp (to work towards the HE) + axes that are close to a level break point. Raze that city and then pull back, maybe another will show up for more free gold and xp.

Workers
I think our current 3 are doing ok for their workload, but I had a thought that would save on roads. Instead of roading the forest by Olla (I know I put that sign there, my mistake ) we should road the cows, the grass E of the cows and the wheat. That saves 1 road tile and so worker turns can be put to better use with tile improvements. So make sure to press space on the worker building the road this turn so that nothing silly happens next turn.
I think the worker by Machu should build a farm on the green grass so that city can keep growing and trade the corn around with a future marble/fish city.

Cities
Good call on the NE in Tiwa, with the GLib it is a no brainer, but that means we will want some farms/windmills to help grow a bit more when we have the techs for that. Right now I don't think there is any point in growing because we would have to either fire the specialist or stop working the fancy tin tile.
I think Cuzco should slow build a worker after growing this turn, then a settler (marble/fish site next?).
Machu could swap to building the Parth while Cuzco isn't, but maybe we should stick to units for now.
After the barracks I think Olla will make a much better unit pump than Machu, but it would also be good cottaging, we need to decided what to do with it. Short term I'd like to keep building the Parth in some city while Cuzco isn't building it, maybe Olla will have some hammers we can scrape up, especially if Budh is spread there by the missionary.
Cheh should deff whip the worker asap, it is working crap tiles, then maybe a work boat to scout out Hatty's coast? Or a Monument to help fight her culture.

City specialisation
It is obvious what Cuzco is for, and Tiwa has become our mediocre GP farm (with boost from GLib) and so needs farms, but as part of our strategy discussion I think we need to discuss what improvements/National wonders to place in our other cities.

Strategy
Something that maybe we should consider before playing the next set. But right now I am tired, and I'm not really sure what we should do as normally my play is quite haphazard.
I do think we need some more cities, we have two easy spots for sure. Maybe we should do something like count food surplus in Olla to decided if we have the room to fit in a city by the iron using the cow?
Or decided on some longer term tech choices, eg do we want to even try for lib, do we want to do a Mass Media win or try to go to war? If so, when ie with what units?

@ pholkhero, I had assumed it was a reference to the boost in our power per invested, but now that you ask I'm not sure 100%, maybe he meant using the marble to maximise each raw hammer invested?

 

[Mikehendi]

OK, had a chance to look at the save, so here are my thoughts.

Techs
We should hold off on trading lit until we get some gold for it, as I don't think PH+Med are worth it by themselves.
We should definitely swap to from currency as research, but I'm not sure what should replace it. Pascal has drama, but it would open up a Philo bulb with our next GS. Compass on the other hand might be able to get MC from Pascal and Currency from someone else+other brokerage.
Fortunately we will soon have enough eps to keep a watch on Pascal's next tech.

I think Compass is a good idea, since no one has it. We should then trade it for currency asap, as it allows lots of important things, like building wealth, and equalling out trades with cash.

While our tech rate looks good, we only make 38 beakers @ breakeven, and then compass or currency takes 16 turns to tech instead of 6!

I don't think we should trade for cheap techs like med or priesthood, or techs we don't need, as the WFYABTA limit seems to be reached very quick on deity. So selling literature later sounds much better. 100g in trade is more valuable then a 200 beaker tech!

Units
Good to see some build up, but I think we should send some defense to the Hatty frontier to keep her as honest as a Deity can be.
We should also go and destroy the Barb city to the NE of Cuzco, I think we should use our axe with the most xp (to work towards the HE) + axes that are close to a level break point. Raze that city and then pull back, maybe another will show up for more free gold and xp.

Agree on making the hatty block city a stronghold also. But keep the archers in our GP farm, as they benefit extra from the hill.

Also, keep lots of units in the southern cities, as bismarck might attack again after the 10 turn peace treaty. (And I don't know if Sury attacks at pleased, if he does we might also be his target. I don't even know if he was pleased or cautious with us when he went wheoohrn)

Workers
I think our current 3 are doing ok for their workload, but I had a thought that would save on roads. Instead of roading the forest by Olla (I know I put that sign there, my mistake ) we should road the cows, the grass E of the cows and the wheat. That saves 1 road tile and so worker turns can be put to better use with tile improvements. So make sure to press space on the worker building the road this turn so that nothing silly happens next turn.
I think the worker by Machu should build a farm on the green grass so that city can keep growing and trade the corn around with a future marble/fish city.

Agree on worker actions. The worker at Tiwanaku was planned to build a road to connect the horses to our empire.

Cities
Good call on the NE in Tiwa, with the GLib it is a no brainer, but that means we will want some farms/windmills to help grow a bit more when we have the techs for that. Right now I don't think there is any point in growing because we would have to either fire the specialist or stop working the fancy tin tile.
I think Cuzco should slow build a worker after growing this turn, then a settler (marble/fish site next?).
Machu could swap to building the Parth while Cuzco isn't, but maybe we should stick to units for now.
After the barracks I think Olla will make a much better unit pump than Machu, but it would also be good cottaging, we need to decided what to do with it. Short term I'd like to keep building the Parth in some city while Cuzco isn't building it, maybe Olla will have some hammers we can scrape up, especially if Budh is spread there by the missionary.
Cheh should deff whip the worker asap, it is working crap tiles, then maybe a work boat to scout out Hatty's coast? Or a Monument to help fight her culture.

The Nat. Epic hasn't yet got hammers invested btw, but I think we should build it there (in Tiwanaku) anyway. On building units, Maybe a few more for the hatty border city, but until catapults come along our cities should be safe enough i think. Remember that each additional unit costs at least 1 gpt I believe.

City specialisation
It is obvious what Cuzco is for, and Tiwa has become our mediocre GP farm (with boost from GLib) and so needs farms, but as part of our strategy discussion I think we need to discuss what improvements/National wonders to place in our other cities.

Cuzco --> Bureau Oxford Super Science center
Machu Pichu --> unit spamming
Tiwanaku --> GS farm (after nat. epic run another scientist instead of working the tin mine). Doesn't need to grow until biology IMO, just keep pumping scientists to bulb or settle. The oppertunity cost of working the tin mine, is slowly growing 3 whole sizes while not working scientists, that's not worth it now.
Olla --> It's a bit late to start cottaging it imo, this could be our ironworks (or at least our very best production city. After the specials, it should get a farm or 2, and then workshops and/or watermills.
Hatty bordering city: Production, building wealth a great deal of the time to get more commerce through the science multipliers in the capital.

Strategy
Something that maybe we should consider before playing the next set. But right now I am tired, and I'm not really sure what we should do as normally my play is quite haphazard.
I do think we need some more cities, we have two easy spots for sure. Maybe we should do something like count food surplus in Olla to decided if we have the room to fit in a city by the iron using the cow?
Or decided on some longer term tech choices, eg do we want to even try for lib, do we want to do a Mass Media win or try to go to war? If so, when ie with what units?

Maybe we should vote whether or not diplo is an option.

Diplo win --> is probably possible and maybe the easiest to achieve, but I find it a bit to cheesy.
Culture -->I wouldn't aim for it now, but if we happen to get another 2 great commerce sites, we could always switch later to a late cultural victory through the slider.
Space --> Just look at pacal . Defenitely looks the like the hardest option.
Dom / conquest --> Just look at pacal . But luckily, the AI really sucks at warring! At least, so they've told me . I have absolutely no experience in warring with Kossins favorite bombers and flying troops and all that fancy stuff.

I don't really know what way to go, I feel a bit lost. I'm just glad we survived so far, but the game doesn't look lost at all unfortunately, so now we actually have to try to make a plan for winning instead of just playing out an already lost situation

I'd like to see some votes (and explaination) on what VC to try, and where to put the national wonders (and with it, city specialization).

I don't think we should be rushing to play through the turnsets like in a normal (not so difficult) SG. Just take all the time we need, I want us to try our best to win this! Damn, that would be something, to be able to say:

We've won! No, really!

 

[Stochastic]

Re the tech time of Compass, fortunately we have quite a bit of gold piled up, so I think we should be able to start teching for it in 2 turns so we'll have it in 8.

I like the point about using hammers to help bolster our econ, that is a trick I rarely consider. Having remembered that I feel much more comfortable making Olla a IW city.

Here is my vote for VCs

Spoiler :

I think in this game we should for for "just win" so any VC is legit regardless of its dairy content.

I don't think the AP is an option, we have, in my estimation, zero chance of getting theo before someone else, and without stone I don't want to try for that. And population wise we are too small to be the second vote option.
I'm not sure that the normal diplo option will be that much easier, I find Pascal likes to go down the Mass Media line, and at his current rate he will get to the UN way before us anyways.

So I think a conquest/dom might actually end up being the easiest option And that almost by default means a Renaissance and later war. So we'll want to try to get Lib for some sort of boost (probably Nat for drafting+the Taj as we are slow) and then I'm thinking we'll want cannons+Muskets. Looking at the targets, Hatty looks isolated diplomatically as well as an adjacent (sort of) and weak target, then once we've got a critical mass of units move on to whoever looks tasty next. We should be willing to take vassels and use the deity production power to our advantage too.

It sounds so easy!

 

[pholkhero]

im also of the opnion that any VC on deity is fine by me. i've played (and been crushed) enough times to take it any way i can get it

lemme look at the save later and post more informatively

 

[Asaf]

I actually think that building the AP is very feasible.
We don't have to be the first to theology, but we can pre-chop enough forests (around Cuzco) that combined with our ind trait gives us a good chance.
We can research theo in 10-11 turns @ 60% (which leaves us with enough gold to finish) and hire 1-2 scientists in Cuzco (instead of saving hammers for Parthenon or its gold).

We then need of course a missionary (there is another next to Olly which will hopefully spread Buddhism there soon), and of course more cities (and missionaries for them). Our rivals have 7-10 cities, so we need more cities for the vote power.

I've never played for an AP win (only read about it), so if there's anything I'm missing please point it out to me.

If we miss the AP, theo is still on the road to liberalism and then we need med->drama->philo->paper->education->lib (not necessarily in that order) , of which we can bulb philo and most of edu.
In that case, conquest/domination is the best course of action, although if we do very well it might open up diplo victory (if we get big enough).

EDIT:

I like the point about using hammers to help bolster our econ, that is a trick I rarely consider. Having remembered that I feel much more comfortable making Olla a IW city.

I thought building wealth with hammers is not affected by modifiers. In that case IW will be a waste whenever we build wealth there.