Micro Plan

[Trystero]

I've updated the test game, addressing the errors Irgy noted in my last test save, and learning more about World Builder along the way. Apparently when you use the "change all tiles" function any tiles that were once land are treated as coast not ocean. I failed to notice this earlier. I decided to reconstruct the map and play through the game again to the current turn (turn 55).

This seemed to work well, and the attached test save should exactly match in-game conditions, except for the barbs. I verified that the beakers we've put into Math in the real game and the test match.

Irgy: In the previous micro I posted for the older test save, I think the galley was taking shortcuts across coast tiles that were supposed to be ocean. That should be fixed in the attached test game. I will re-do the micro with this save, and incorporating our discussion.. Also I removed the attachment for the last test game to avoid confusion.

Edit: I noticed we have Archery somehow. I'll remove that in the next update.

Edit2: I also neglected to give us Meditation from AMAZON. I'll take care of that as well.

Edit3: Changes made. Corrected test save now attached.

 

[Trystero]

I did some more planning from the end of the current micro plan, emphasizing workers first. See what you think:

62:
* Settler done in Sirius, start Worker
* Settler and Lord Parkin walk into Galley
* Galley moves towards first offshore city
63:
* Worker2 done in Canopus > moves to 1N2W of Sirius
* Canopus starts another Worker (5 turns)
64:
* Currency done, start CoL (assume we have PH)
* Worker2 finishes road
65:
* Worker2 starts cottage on same tile
* Settler and Lord Parkin offload at Arcturus (clams/pig/copper) site. WB arrives at clams
66:
* WB improves clams
* Arcturus founded, works improved clams
* Lord Parkin moves to pigs
67:
* Great Scientist born in Sirius > Academy (keep running 2 scientists)
* Lord Parkin improves pigs
68:
* CoL done, start next tech. CS? (Confucian holy city = Canopus, revolt to state religion?)
69:
* Cottage done in Sirius, switch scientist to work cottage. Worker2 moves 1SE (1W of Sirius)
70:
* Worker3 done in Sirius, moves 1W to build cottage
* Worker2 starts 2nd cottage in Sirius
71:
* 2nd cottage done in Sirius, switch scientist to work 2nd cottage, Worker2 free to move
* Worker4 done in Canopus, moves to FP 2S of Canopus
* Canopus builds Granary for 1 turn
* Pigs done in Arcturus, Lord Parkin moves to copper
72:
* FP cottage done in Canopus, Canopus grows to pop 5, works both FP cottages
* Switch Canopus to settler (8 turns)
* Worker3 in Sirius free to move
* Arcturus grows to pop 2, works clams + pigs
73:
* Lord Parkin mines copper
* Worker4 in Canopus free to move.

 

[Irgy]

Finally got to playing this through (well, most of the way anyway)

Some comments:

64:
* Worker2 finishes road

If we forget the road on this tile for the moment, and change Lord Parkin's earlier move from a road to a cottage, we can have this cottage complete in time to work it on the turn we want to work it, T66 (switching one of the two scientists to the cottage).

Also, if we offload the settler and worker into the forest on T64, we can settle Arcturus a turn earlier on T65, as well as having the worker in place on the pigs/copper sooner.

67:
* Great Scientist born in Sirius > Academy (keep running 2 scientists)
* Lord Parkin improves pigs

Why the pigs first? I admit that generally growth is better, but I think we're all keen to get the copper improved and start building an axeman.

You dont include the Arcturus builds, I'd suggest a warrior followed by an axeman and possibly a spearman as well. Then we can start with the granary, lighthouse, and a settler/worker once it's grown a bit.

71:
* Worker4 done in Canopus, moves to FP 2S of Canopus

This should have happened on T68. I assume you knew that and this is just a minor error, as you said "(5 turns)" on T63, and you have the cottage complete at the right time on T72.

 

[Trystero]

If we forget the road on this tile for the moment, and change Lord Parkin's earlier move from a road to a cottage, we can have this cottage complete in time to work it on the turn we want to work it, T66 (switching one of the two scientists to the cottage).

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing after I posted this. I think we should finish the road after building the cottage, but I'll make sure that doesn't delay the second cottage.

Also, I assumed we'd want to build cottages first to get working them sooner. After the two cottages to switch the scientists to work, do you think we should build mines or more cottages in Sirius? If the road isn't done I'll finish that.

Also, if we offload the settler and worker into the forest on T64, we can settle Arcturus a turn earlier on T65, as well as having the worker in place on the pigs/copper sooner.

Noted. I'll revise accordingly.

Why the pigs first? I admit that generally growth is better, but I think we're all keen to get the copper improved and start building an axeman.

You dont include the Arcturus builds, I'd suggest a warrior followed by an axeman and possibly a spearman as well. Then we can start with the granary, lighthouse, and a settler/worker once it's grown a bit.

I forgot to include the Arcturus build. I went with warrior first, and improved the pigs before copper, because if we improve the copper first it is instantly hooked up by the river before the warrior is finished (switched to Axeman). I thought having at least one more cheap warrior for MP duties was worthwhile, but we could build an axe first. We also have Archery now, so archers are an option.

This should have happened on T68. I assume you knew that and this is just a minor error, as you said "(5 turns)" on T63, and you have the cottage complete at the right time on T72.

Not sure what happened there. I'll check when I re-play this.

Thanks for your comments!

 

[pindicator]

First off, great work as always Trystero. i really appreciate you and irgy taking the time to really hammer out the nuts & bolts of this operation.

67:
* Great Scientist born in Sirius > Academy (keep running 2 scientists)
* Lord Parkin improves pigs

This is more of a strategy question and less of a micro one, but do we want to continue running scientists in Sirius after the first academy? Do we plan on using a 2nd scientist for a bulb / academy, and if we do then do we need to birth it in the capital or can we birth it elsewhere? I see that we don't swap until cottages are built, but that will slow future growth and research rates in later turns.

Once that academy is down, it's our greatest benefit to grow as big as possible and work as many cottages as possible.

63:
* Worker2 done in Canopus > moves to 1N2W of Sirius
* Canopus starts another Worker (5 turns)

68:
* CoL done, start next tech. CS? (Confucian holy city = Canopus, revolt to state religion?)

What does Canopus switch to on T68 when the worker finishes? Is this where a warrior for MP duty comes in? I didn't see anything listed until T71.

 

[AlphaShard]

We really need more workers somehow.

 

[Irgy]

I don't think we can afford to keep running scientists after we get the great scientist we're after.

Part of the reason Trystero had them still running was that the cottages simply weren't built. This is partly fixed (or at least improved on) by building the cottage(s) before the last piece of road. However I think it's better to work the silk than a scientist even if the cottages aren't ready, as we're falling behind in expansion.

 

[Trystero]

This is more of a strategy question and less of a micro one, but do we want to continue running scientists in Sirius after the first academy? Do we plan on using a 2nd scientist for a bulb / academy, and if we do then do we need to birth it in the capital or can we birth it elsewhere? I see that we don't swap until cottages are built, but that will slow future growth and research rates in later turns.

Once that academy is down, it's our greatest benefit to grow as big as possible and work as many cottages as possible.

Thanks for the input, pindicator. As you may have guessed, the micro is really a work in progress, so my plan above is still getting the bugs hammered out. In the current plan I tried to put the GPP into another GS until after cottages were built to work with those citizens. I agree with your conclusion, and Irgy has made some good points about getting the cottages up sooner and working the unimproved silk to help Sirius grow. I will try incorporating those changes shortly (I've been preparing a presentation for work tomorrow, so I haven't had much time this weekend).

We really need more workers somehow.

We'll have at least three more after 10-15 turns by the plan outlined above. After that I think we need a couple of settlers.

 

[azzaman333]

Am I right in assuming we're planning to build a worker next in Canopus?
If so, how does this compare with building a settler to build site B, then pumping the workers? I'm not sure, but I think settling B will allow us to get more workers faster than not, especially if those from Sirius are intended to be transported down to Copper city.

 

[Irgy]

We're quite desperately short of workers at the moment, we need the worker turns now to build improvements in Dehli. We'd lose about as much production* by working two unimproved tiles in Dehli as we'd gain from settling the new city earlier. It may be worth comparing a settler to the second worker build in Canopus though.

* Ok actually we won't lose 'production' as such, as the plan is to build cottages. But if we build mines then it would be true, and we're only not building mines because we think cottages are better.

 

[AlphaShard]

Dehli?

 

[Irgy]

Oops, playing an SGOTM at the same time as India and getting my capitals confused. Dehli == Sirius

 

[azzaman333]

We're quite desperately short of workers at the moment, we need the worker turns now to build improvements in Dehli. We'd lose about as much production* by working two unimproved tiles in Dehli as we'd gain from settling the new city earlier. It may be worth comparing a settler to the second worker build in Canopus though.

* Ok actually we won't lose 'production' as such, as the plan is to build cottages. But if we build mines then it would be true, and we're only not building mines because we think cottages are better.

Why do we need the improvements in Sirius now? It'll be building workers and settlers itself, so it still won't be growing beyond 6, and we already have our 6 citizens working effectively. My gut feeling says it's best to settle B asap, since with the fish it can produce workers fairly quickly as well, and a 2nd commerce city will probably be needed to fund the REXing adequately.

 

[Irgy]

Why do we need the improvements in Sirius now? It'll be building workers and settlers itself, so it still won't be growing beyond 6, and we already have our 6 citizens working effectively. My gut feeling says it's best to settle B asap, since with the fish it can produce workers fairly quickly as well, and a 2nd commerce city will probably be needed to fund the REXing adequately.

Sirius is currently working two scientists, but relatively shortly we'll get our great scientist for the academy, and we don't want to keep working scientists after that. At that point, we suddenly have two citizens with no improved tiles to work. That's why I see it as fairly important to get one worker out from Canopus next. After that we can look at another settler. Maybe even as Sirius's next build.

City 'B' will still take a while to catch up, somewhere needs to build it a workboat if it's to work the fish, and then it's still another 15 turns to replace the hammers we spent on the settler before it can start to get ahead.

City 'B' also needs to be compared to settling the 2-clam-and-pig spot on Bode, or wherever else we might settle instead, there's nothing to stop the new settlements building workers and settlers wherever they are. I'd consider building some in Arturus once it has a axeman and maybe a spear.

 

[azzaman333]

Sirius is currently working two scientists, but relatively shortly we'll get our great scientist for the academy, and we don't want to keep working scientists after that. At that point, we suddenly have two citizens with no improved tiles to work. That's why I see it as fairly important to get one worker out from Canopus next. After that we can look at another settler. Maybe even as Sirius's next build.

City 'B' will still take a while to catch up, somewhere needs to build it a workboat if it's to work the fish, and then it's still another 15 turns to replace the hammers we spent on the settler before it can start to get ahead.

City 'B' also needs to be compared to settling the 2-clam-and-pig spot on Bode, or wherever else we might settle instead, there's nothing to stop the new settlements building workers and settlers wherever they are. I'd consider building some in Arturus once it has a axeman and maybe a spear.

I don't see why we need to stop working the scientists after building the academy.
B has to be up soon rather than later because it too is a commerce city and will need time to grow as well.
And the reason I was advocating building the settler from Canopus next was to leave Sirius with its planned settlers/workers still able to settle Bode/Andromeda roughly as quickly.

 

[Irgy]

I don't see why we need to stop working the scientists after building the academy.
B has to be up soon rather than later because it too is a commerce city and will need time to grow as well.

We don't "need" to stop working the scientists. But we certainly want to. It costs us quite a lot in delayed development to be working them.

At the moment they're each providing 3 beakers, and 3gpp that's going towards an academy that will boost our research rate significantly. Once the scientist pops, they're providing 3 beakers, which is the same as a fresh cottage (or even a coast square or something), and 3gpp that just go into a black hole. We wouldn't get a great scientist for another 34 turns at best, and we have no plans or particular use for one when we get it. As I said in another thread, I don't want to pop great people to bulb techs that we then give away to more than half our rivals. The academy at least we get to keep.

On the other hand, we're falling behind all of the other teams in production and expansion. We really need the 2 food that we get from a cottage but lose working a scientist, to build settlers and workers that we need now. A lot more than the 3gpp. In fact I'd much rather work even the silk than a scientist once the GSci is out.

And the reason I was advocating building the settler from Canopus next was to leave Sirius with its planned settlers/workers still able to settle Bode/Andromeda roughly as quickly.

It's generally considered best practice to have about 1.5 workers per city, to REX efficiently as much as for anything else. That's why I'd be very surprised if it was more efficient to build our fifth city in preference to our second worker. The equation is skewed a bit by all the workboats we've built, but the point is workers help the REX just as much as settlers, and you need to have a balance. We're a long way off balance one way, and going further just seems like a bad idea.

Even looking at settling site B on its own, building a worker first delays the city by about 6 turns. However, use that worker to chop the first workboat there, and you already get back most of what time you'd lose in that city by having to slow build the workboat there. And you've still got an extra worker. It's not that simple, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.

In any case though there's nothing to stop you doing the tests though and finding out.

 

[azzaman333]

We don't "need" to stop working the scientists. But we certainly want to. It costs us quite a lot in delayed development to be working them.

At the moment they're each providing 3 beakers, and 3gpp that's going towards an academy that will boost our research rate significantly. Once the scientist pops, they're providing 3 beakers, which is the same as a fresh cottage (or even a coast square or something), and 3gpp that just go into a black hole. We wouldn't get a great scientist for another 34 turns at best, and we have no plans or particular use for one when we get it. As I said in another thread, I don't want to pop great people to bulb techs that we then give away to more than half our rivals. The academy at least we get to keep.

On the other hand, we're falling behind all of the other teams in production and expansion. We really need the 2 food that we get from a cottage but lose working a scientist, to build settlers and workers that we need now. A lot more than the 3gpp. In fact I'd much rather work even the silk than a scientist once the GSci is out.

We're not going to pop another great scientist because we're not working the scientists for 34 turns, rather until there are cottages to work. We're over 3bpt better off running a scientist than working the silk, plus the GPP in the bank for later.

Also, settling B and Copper City will give us 2 commerce cities (B and Sirius), plus 2 more production cities in Canopus and Copper city along with Sirius' decent production ability.

It's generally considered best practice to have about 1.5 workers per city, to REX efficiently as much as for anything else. That's why I'd be very surprised if it was more efficient to build our fifth city in preference to our second worker. The equation is skewed a bit by all the workboats we've built, but the point is workers help the REX just as much as settlers, and you need to have a balance. We're a long way off balance one way, and going further just seems like a bad idea.

Even looking at settling site B on its own, building a worker first delays the city by about 6 turns. However, use that worker to chop the first workboat there, and you already get back most of what time you'd lose in that city by having to slow build the workboat there. And you've still got an extra worker. It's not that simple, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.

In any case though there's nothing to stop you doing the tests though and finding out.

cbf testing it.

 

[Irgy]

We're not going to pop another great scientist because we're not working the scientists for 34 turns, rather until there are cottages to work. We're over 3bpt better off running a scientist than working the silk, plus the GPP in the bank for later.

Only 2bpt better off than the silk, and 1 food worse off than working coast (without a lighthouse even!), which is surely far from optimal.

If we won't use the gpp for a very long time they're next to worthless. Every small advantage that we do use in the short term (such as more food/production) snowballs in an exponential way into a much bigger advantage later, whereas the gpp just sit there doing nothing for us.

 

[azzaman333]

Only 2bpt better off than the silk, and 1 food worse off than working coast (without a lighthouse even!), which is surely far from optimal.

3, actually. Remember to take into account modifiers.

If we won't use the gpp for a very long time they're next to worthless. Every small advantage that we do use in the short term (such as more food/production) snowballs in an exponential way into a much bigger advantage later, whereas the gpp just sit there doing nothing for us.

Another academy in B is a possibility.

 

[Irgy]

3, actually. Remember to take into account modifiers.

? What modifiers? The only modifier that applies differently to raw commerce and scientist beakers is the beaurocracy bonus, and that favours the commerce.

There's the slider if that's what you mean? We're running 100% at the moment though, and will break even at 80% or 90%. Converting the commerce to gold isn't exactly losing it anyway. There is a bit of efficiency gained by running scientists in the city with the academy and getting the gold from elsewhere, but if that's what you mean then you've certainly left out a lot of working in what would be a fairly complicated calculation, and I doubt it would come out to that big a difference.