azzaman333
meh
Library gives +25% beakers. Academy gives +50% beakers. 1 scientist, after Academy and Library, will give 5.25 beakers.
Micro Plan
- Thread starter Irgy
- Start date
Ahh nevermind I see your point. I was thinking about the comparison between a scientist and a coast tile, which is still a fair comparison, but that's a different point entirely. Albeit one that essentially makes this entire discussion pointless.
I tend to think in raw beakers for these comparisons anyway, which is part of my confusion. Why stop at the building bonuses for research and not include the pre-requisite bonus and the other-civs-that know the tech bonus? It just comes down to which you call the 'beakers".
Trystero
Deity
This isn't anything critical, but it's bugging me:
I was trying to play through the latest turns from the latest test save I posted. There is something I don't understand. In the first turn of the test save (turn 55), our research rate is 58 beakers/turn, and this matches up with the actual game (see any screen shot here). On the next turn (56), at the beginning of the turn our research is still 58 beakers/turn (see first screenshot here), but increases to 60 beakers/turn by the end of the turn (see the last screenshot in the same post). The research rate is still 60 beakers/turn on turn 57, but increases to 63 beakers/turn on turn 58 (see here).
I can't account for these increases in the test game. The only way I could get the research rate from 58 to 60 was by switching Canopus from a fish tile to the cottaged FP. I am almost certain we didn't do this, both because I played the turn, and because it would delay growth of Canopus from turn 58 to 59, which I know didn't happen, since we started a worker after finishing the WB on turn 58 and Canopus wouldn't be able to grow after that. Even with growth of Canopus to pop 4 and working both fish, the gold and the FP, our research rate is only 61 in the test game.
The other weird thing is that the maintenance cost have increased in the test game, but not the real game. Here's the financial advisor for the latest turn in the test game:
and in the real game:
Any thoughts on what might lead to the difference?
In short, we are doing better in the real game than the test game, and I can't account for these differences. Anyone (Irgy?) have any clues to what's going on?
And as I said before this isn't a big deal, but the test save will become increasingly less useful unless I can figure this out.
I was trying to play through the latest turns from the latest test save I posted. There is something I don't understand. In the first turn of the test save (turn 55), our research rate is 58 beakers/turn, and this matches up with the actual game (see any screen shot here). On the next turn (56), at the beginning of the turn our research is still 58 beakers/turn (see first screenshot here), but increases to 60 beakers/turn by the end of the turn (see the last screenshot in the same post). The research rate is still 60 beakers/turn on turn 57, but increases to 63 beakers/turn on turn 58 (see here).
I can't account for these increases in the test game. The only way I could get the research rate from 58 to 60 was by switching Canopus from a fish tile to the cottaged FP. I am almost certain we didn't do this, both because I played the turn, and because it would delay growth of Canopus from turn 58 to 59, which I know didn't happen, since we started a worker after finishing the WB on turn 58 and Canopus wouldn't be able to grow after that. Even with growth of Canopus to pop 4 and working both fish, the gold and the FP, our research rate is only 61 in the test game.
The other weird thing is that the maintenance cost have increased in the test game, but not the real game. Here's the financial advisor for the latest turn in the test game:
Spoiler :
and in the real game:
Spoiler :
Any thoughts on what might lead to the difference?
In short, we are doing better in the real game than the test game, and I can't account for these differences. Anyone (Irgy?) have any clues to what's going on?
And as I said before this isn't a big deal, but the test save will become increasingly less useful unless I can figure this out.
Trystero
Deity
Yeah, I'm just messing around with things, since the system didn't behave according to my expectations. I do research for a living, so it's kind of an occupational hazard. 
Actually, I might have figured out the maintenance cost issue. According to this thread maintenance is calculated as something like: [Difficulty % * Size % * [Distance] * (Pop+7) / 22]
Since everything else is identical between the test and the real game, I figure I must have incorrectly concluded we were on a standard size map. Actually, I think you brought this up earlier. Interesting.
Actually, I might have figured out the maintenance cost issue. According to this thread maintenance is calculated as something like: [Difficulty % * Size % * [Distance] * (Pop+7) / 22]
Since everything else is identical between the test and the real game, I figure I must have incorrectly concluded we were on a standard size map. Actually, I think you brought this up earlier. Interesting.
AlphaShard
Emperor
I think were on a small map.
Trystero
Deity
Actually the modifier goes down as the map size increases, so we are probably on a large map. Also, I am running out of room for the star continent on the test map, which indicates we are on a larger than standard map.
Trystero
Deity
I did some revised micro incorporating Irgy's suggestions, and also looking at Azzaman's proposal for a settler first in Canopus:
I like the building the settler first at Canopus. Since we are using Canopus as a settler/worker pump, we don't need to improve more of its tiles right away. Also, this doesn't delay the improvements at Sirius.
I also now think we should improve the copper first at Arcturus. If we build a warrior there, the build will switch to a spear or axeman. We could also build and Archer first for defense.
I like the building the settler first at Canopus. Since we are using Canopus as a settler/worker pump, we don't need to improve more of its tiles right away. Also, this doesn't delay the improvements at Sirius.
I also now think we should improve the copper first at Arcturus. If we build a warrior there, the build will switch to a spear or axeman. We could also build and Archer first for defense.
So, map size could explain the maintainence difference. Are the maps compressed? Daveshack commented that the file sizes were small. However, a small file size and a 'large' map with a lot of ocean are consistent if the storage format is compressed.
It's just occurred to me that the research difference is probably trade routes. From the demographics screen, we have favourable imports/exports. What I think is causing this is that we have a trade route with an AMAZON city on Andromeda.
It's just occurred to me that the research difference is probably trade routes. From the demographics screen, we have favourable imports/exports. What I think is causing this is that we have a trade route with an AMAZON city on Andromeda.
Was Azzaman's idea to build a settler after the worker we're already building, or instead of that worker? I've been interpreting it as the latter. It's not at all clear from what Azzaman said - when he said worker 'next' was about the same time we finished the workboat, not sure if it was just before or just after. Maybe that's what's caused the whole argument. That's certainly why I've been saying it would delay the cottages in Sirius.
If it's the former, which actually makes more sense, can we avoid calling it "settler first"? It's the fourth build in Canopus, and it comes just after a worker.
I never got around to saying it, but it's my opinion that this switch to a spearman (I'm pretty sure they switch to spears not axes) is actually a good thing. Getting started on some metal units as soon as possible is a good thing.
Trystero
Deity
OK - how about settler next?
Whether this is what Azzaman meant, or not, I like the second of the two options I outlined. Yeah, I switched it to an axe to be more effective against barbs, but if we leave it as a spear, it will be done sooner. Even if I tried to delay hooking up the copper by improving the pigs first, the warrior still wasn't done until copper was mined, so I figure we should improve the copper first.
Trystero
Deity
No problem. I actually called the plan I favor "worker (Sirius) and settler (Canopus)" above. I am not advocating building a settler in Canopus instead of the worker we are currently building. (And, yes, I know you know this. )
)
Trystero
Deity
Also, FWIW: In my test game, if we don't cancel building the cottage on turn 61, the worker can still move onto the galley on turn 62. But I guess we should cancel just to be safe.
I have not researched map compression but it would make a lot of sense for a mostly ocean map to take less space when compressed. Also I would not be surprised if the size is custom with more of a square than rectangle. And don't know if toroidal would be visible in the options but it would be an interesting twist if the sides and top/bottom are both connected.
Agree, trade routes are a possible reason for the test game and real game to diverge.
Trystero
Deity
I've updated the test save to the last turn played (65) and attached the game file. As before, the trade routes and beakers don't match the actual game, but they should be close enough for short term plans.
I also tried to update the micro plan a bit and added a couple of turns:
I'm not sure what the workers should improve next. I think the FP shared by Canopus and Alpha Centauri should be cottaged, but not sure if both workers need to do that. Should we pre-chop in Alpha Centauri? Mine hills in Canopus or Sirius? I think Lord Parkin could mine at least one green hill after improving the pigs, then maybe move toward the pigs/clam city to start chopping jungle? If you suggest it, I'll test it. (Well, maybe...)
Also, I'm not great at whipping, and I usually depend on BUG for overflow info. Any suggestions for when we should whip (and where) would be welcome.
Edit: The obvious next thing for workers 2 and 3 to do is road the iron tile, which I neglected to indicate.
I also tried to update the micro plan a bit and added a couple of turns:
I'm not sure what the workers should improve next. I think the FP shared by Canopus and Alpha Centauri should be cottaged, but not sure if both workers need to do that. Should we pre-chop in Alpha Centauri? Mine hills in Canopus or Sirius? I think Lord Parkin could mine at least one green hill after improving the pigs, then maybe move toward the pigs/clam city to start chopping jungle? If you suggest it, I'll test it. (Well, maybe...)
Also, I'm not great at whipping, and I usually depend on BUG for overflow info. Any suggestions for when we should whip (and where) would be welcome.
Edit: The obvious next thing for workers 2 and 3 to do is road the iron tile, which I neglected to indicate.
AlphaShard
Emperor
I usually look for the Pop cost of being 2-3, unless it's something I desperatly need.
pindicator
Emperor
2 pop is generally best for whips, unless there is an urgent need (or there just isn't any better way of getting hammers). Also, if we can we should try to line up the whips to time with population growth.
With worker turns... would it be possible to chop the forest on the city b location before settling the city? Hate to waste the hammers if we can help it.
With worker turns... would it be possible to chop the forest on the city b location before settling the city? Hate to waste the hammers if we can help it.
Trystero
Deity
Thanks guys, I am familiar with the "2 pop whip" sort of advice. I was looking more for the "I think you should whip at city X on turn Y to get Z out" sort of advice. Specifically, do people usually whip 2 pop at the first turn possible, or wait for more hammer overflow? Or does it depend? (For me it usually depends... so maybe that's the answer).
That tile isn't in our cultural borders, so not without delaying settling that site until later.
Edit: I just double-checked and cultural borders don't effect chopping... I will check if we can get the workers over there in time.
Edit2: Yes we can chop that tile if we send worker2 (hell hound) over there after he builds the first cottage in Sirius. This will delay both the second cottage in Sirius and the iron mine at city B (Alpha Centauri).
Edit3: OK - playtested this. If we chop we get the worker finished in Canopus 1 turn sooner (turn 76 vs. 77). In this instance, the 2nd cottage in Sirius is delayed to turn 72 (instead of 69), and the iron mine to turn 75 (instead of 73).
I was looking more for the "I think you should whip at city X on turn Y to get Z out" sort of advice. Specifically, do people usually whip 2 pop at the first turn possible, or wait for more hammer overflow? Or does it depend? (For me it usually depends... so maybe that's the answer).That tile isn't in our cultural borders, so not without delaying settling that site until later.
Edit: I just double-checked and cultural borders don't effect chopping... I will check if we can get the workers over there in time.
Edit2: Yes we can chop that tile if we send worker2 (hell hound) over there after he builds the first cottage in Sirius. This will delay both the second cottage in Sirius and the iron mine at city B (Alpha Centauri).
Edit3: OK - playtested this. If we chop we get the worker finished in Canopus 1 turn sooner (turn 76 vs. 77). In this instance, the 2nd cottage in Sirius is delayed to turn 72 (instead of 69), and the iron mine to turn 75 (instead of 73).
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