Middle east violence

[Ubik01]

To dear Lord Owen

I really don't know if you like to play with words or are unable of extending your thought model to include - let's say the next block of thoughts?

If this seems to "deep" for you, let's try this: "Racist" is a word we use for those who are separating people according to their race, yes. But nowadays, the word has a more extended meaning: If you think of people as "straight" and "gay" you are also racist. If you think of people as "catholics" and "protestants", that also falls under the definition of "racism". Also, if you think of people as "muslim" and "christians".

I think you are the victim of bad propaganda, my friend. Just tell me which muslim country is "aggresive" nowadays? And don't start that Iraqi crap, because we all know who brought up (and still keeps in place - as they couldn't "remove" the sob one way or another) Sadam.

Is Saudi Arabia aggresive? Is Egypt? Is UAE? Is Iran? Where is that militaristic/aggresive muslim state? Well, ok, Algeria is not excactly a paradigm of Democracy and so is Turkey... but again how many "christian" countries are dictatorships or "democracy" only by name? Many, huh?

Don't mix apples with berries, will ya? The problem in the middle East is definitely as complex as it can be, and it mainly is so because of Israeli aggresivity, not of Palestinian.

And I wouldn't agree to those who say "hey, they kill eachother for 3000 years there, why stop now". That is nonsense, up to the end of the second world war Europe was constantly in turbulance and war for more than 3000 years - should we carry on with this?

I don't believe you would answer "yes" to the above question, so the answer to the other - most important - question about Israel and Palestine is not hard to get.

The solution? If you ask me, it's simple: Convince your government (and I am talking to all US citizens here) to stop the generous aid to Israel. In a two year time (maybe less) they'll have to find a viable solution for both communities.

 

[G-Man]

What are you talking about?!? Israeli aggression? Israel only attacks Palestinians when:
A) We have solid intellegence saying that a specific terrorist is about to attack us
B) In retaliation to Palestinian terror attacks. In these cases we only attack buildings that we know will be empty and that we know the terrorists used them when attacking us.

The Palestinians, on the other hand, that get a much larger aid from countries around the world (including Israel), are attacking civilians saying that this will help them get their own country.
May I remind you all that the only reason the Palestinian authoruty exists is because 6 years ago they decided that instead of attacking us they'll try talking? And did you know that Israel offered the Palestinians 95% of the west bank, that were their's by now if they wouldn't start the Intifada?
And to Lord Owen - I know you might think the Muslims are more aggressive because they're religion supports terror as a legitimate form of fighting, but just because they fight differently doesn't mean they're fighting more, or that they live to rage war.

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.iaf.org.il/images/aircrafts/allplanes.jpg" border=0>
Are you talking to me?

 

[Ubik01]

G-Man, this is not an ignorant kid you are talking to, it's a grown up man who knows what is going around in his neighborhood (been there twice, you know, reporting) and I know what I am talking about.

So, save that retaliation/eye for an eye arguments of yours for those who don't know what is going on in Midle East and need information - or propaganda, in this case.

We all do know why the Palestinian attack you, don't we? We all know what is going on with the Israeli settlers, right? and with the step-by-step stripping of the Palestinian land? And we all know how much your leaders value their predecessors signatures in the agreements, don't we?

And we sure do know what Saron is all about and how much he favours the peace process, huh? And, finally, I suppose we all do know who is killing children there, right?

So stop this "we fight back" nonsense and look at the problem. Surely the Palestinians ain't saints - it is that they fight for a right cause that draws the sympathy of every democratic person in this world towards them.

And it is the fact that Israel is a militaristic nation (for a good reason, I know what it is like to be surrounded by enemies, I am Greek, remember?) that enforces the feeling of unjustice by your side.

I do remember that each coin has two sides, but you have to remember it also. I sympathize your people for the mere fact that you are led by fascist politicians and that you have to be a military nation in order to survive among enemies. But that doesn't give you the right to perform genocide, not in the 21st century at least

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by Lord Owen:
To Alcibiaties of Athenae:

With all my respects, do you know the meaning of the word "racism"? The keyword is RACE. I did NOT speak of races. I did NOT speak of racism. In fact, I think racism is nothing but stupidity.

I spoke of religion. And NOT religion as a whole; nobody offended. I spoke about ONE RELIGION IN PARTICULAR: Islam.

Since you wish to play semantics, I'll be perfectly clear.
If YOU again post that another religious group is evil on these boards, you will be banned for two weeks.

Is that clear enough for you?




------------------
<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/blast.gif" border=0><FONT size="4"><FONT COLOR="blue">All knowledge begins with the Phrase:</FONT c><FONT COLOR="red"> I don't know</FONT c></FONT s><IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/ninja1.gif" border=0>
<FONT COLOR="blue">Tuatha De Danann Tribe</FONT c>

 

[G-Man]

to Ubik01:
I know that the settlments are not ours forever, but you can't expect Israel to give them away when not negotiating peace, and you can't expect Israel to discuss peace when there's no cease fire. Israel said that in order to have cease fire, the Palestinians need to stop attacking us. The Palestinians said that they won't stop attacking us until we give them back all the west bank.
About the settlments being the only reason for the violence: Thats nonsense. As I said, Israel offered to withdrow from all sttlments. And you're also fogeting the Hamas and Jihad orgenazations, that has already said they won't stop fighting until they have our entire country.
About our leader "value their predecessors signatures" - The Palestinians also said they'll stop all terror acts against us. Did they? Even after the Palestinians broke the Oslo agreement, Israel still valued it, and thats probably the only reason Gaza is still a Palestinian controlled city. And how about other peace agreements we have? Have you forgot them? Israel has so few water that you don't need to be Jesus to walk on the water of the sea of galilee, Israel's most important water reservation. But still, we give the Palestinians (and Jordan to, as part of our peace agreement with them) their water supply. There's not enough electricity, but the Palestinian authority still gets all the power they need, even if it means I can't see TV or surf the web for hours at a time. The Palestinian police/army (it's the same) is still in training, so Israel has to collect taxes from Palestinians and give them to the Palestinian authority. So as you can see, Israel is doing almost everything the Oslo agreement says we should, while the Palestinians are doing absolutly nothing.
About Sharon's favor of the peace process: Sharon said, that after there'll be a cease fire agreement we'll return to the peace process.
About the Palestinians fighting for a right cause (if killing civilians on purpose is called fighting): As I said earlier, they know the only way they can get a country is by killing all Israelies or by stop attacking us and continuing the peace process. Israel offered them 97% of the area they wanted, and if they can't compromise for 3% then I guess the peace option is not good enough for them.
About Israel being a militaristic country: If by that you mean that we have a strong army, then you're right. If you're saying the army controlls the country, then you're totaly wrong. Israel is a fully democratic, 100% anti-fascist, country.
The Palestinian authority is a tyranny. Just two days ago, Mr. Arafat stoped all fire for a few hours, so Israel will allow the Palestinians to bring Arafat's horses to an Israeli veterinarian. Who knew that sick horses can save human lifes...
About genocide: I think whoever told you that is probably the biggest liar you've ever known. Israel has NO racist laws, has never done any action against anyone because of racist motives, has never hurt anyone because of it's race and is the only mainly white country that has ever brough large numbers of black people, saving them from a racist goverment, and immedietly giving them full rights, including houses, food, jobs, etc.
If any of the sides in this conflict is racist it's the Palestinians. While Israel has over 250,000 workers that live in the Palestinian territory and work in Israel, There were dozens of Israeli civilians that were killed by Palestinian radicals when visiting their Palestinian friends.
Israel has many temples, and major centers of 4 religions. People of all religions are allowed to visit all places (except El-Akza, opened only to Muslims). The Palestinian authority has no people that are not Muslims, and teaches it's students to "Kill all heretics" (including you, Ubik01).

and to Lord Owen: Even I, that suffer from Palestinian violence, doesn't accuse all muslims, or even all Palestinians of raging war. What you said was racist and I think you should apologize and try not to repeat that.
------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.iaf.org.il/images/aircrafts/allplanes.jpg" border=0>
Are you talking to me?


[This message has been edited by G-Man (edited September 06, 2001).]

 

[Ubik01]

Some clearing to get our facts straight – probably what you say is the truth as YOU believe truth should be. But, it’s merely your opinion, not a universal truth and that is how I shall treat it.

Racist policy: Yes, Israel IS a racist state. Discriminating against Palestinian is racist, even if you believe that Palestinians don’t deserve it (by what excuse? I couldn’t imagine). That is a fact. Another fact: Your leaders (namely, Sharon at this time) are mostly fascists. They can’t be anything else – most of them have a long history in your army and usually army people are not exactly democratic. You do remember some of the wonderful acts mr. Sharon performed as a commanding officer? I bet you do.
One more fact: With 5 years minimal military service, women serving in army and Israeli people keeping arms at home, and the Israel army running things side by side with the politicians, is your country not militaristic? It is the definition of a militaristic nation, and that’s a fact you couldn’t convince me otherwise in a thousand years. As I said, I can understand why, but don’t tell me it’s not.
Another fact: Day by day, Israeli make new settlements in the western bank. So, you are willing to give them 97% of the territory they want? And why do you occupy more and more? To create a “de facto” situation, maybe?
And last but not least, who was the one who threw the Palestinians out of there homes in the first place? Yes, Israeli. The brits gave you the permission to go in and occupy land that belonged to others for many centuries – under what right? The fact that the legendary David once reigned there? So, what? Part of the people that later became the Greeks originate (since the Indo-European story doesn’t hold much water whatsoever) from the southern/western Ukraine. So, does this justify us going to invade Ukraine and claim the land as our own? The same with Sicily/southern Italy. Or Asia Minor, Greek for 3500 years – should we sack the Turks and claim the land for us? As I said, that line of thinking doesn’t lead to productive things.

So, my Israeli friend, I am not telling that Palestinian (at least some of them) aren’t over the edge. For sure they are. But they are the weak part in this duel. The much weaker part. One of the most advanced military forces in the world against a bunch or rock throwing kids! Cool, right? They have the right to fight for their land. Have you served in your military G? So, I guess you would fight for your country if there was the need. So do they! Why do you blame them for it?

 

[Dogberry_Old]

The discussion is going off track..as it is supposed to be talking about solutions not accusations. Both sides have more than their share of "problems"... those of Isreal are more disappointing to me, since she is a democracy, but unlikely to remain one much longer.

I hope I am wrong..dead wrong.

Yes .. G-Man .. either Iraq or Iran get get a few raggedly-ass battalions somewhere outside their borders & support them in a half-assed fashion..& they can control territory, provided there is no real opposition. Hizbollah is supported by Iran to some degree.. controlled ? I doubt it.

Most of these Middle East Countries do not have the logistical or industrial base to support major units beyond 100 km from their borders. So for this reason alone, the cry that some enemy is going to move into a Palestinian state for further invasions..is just a political red herring.

All of Jerusalem being both the religious & secular capital of the Isreali State ( why does a government need a religious capital anyway ? ).. is a romantic notion..give it up !!

I will say again, the Isreali "land-thieving" has got to stop !! Nothing is possible if it continues.

Dog

 

[Lord Owen]

Enjoy your vacation.

[This message has been edited by Alcibiaties of Athenae (edited September 07, 2001).]

 

[Juize]

Goodbye Owen, Im sure A&A dont like that u called everybody (and excpesially him) a ****er.

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.virtuallandmedia.com/flags4/europe/FIN.GIF" border=0> I have stolen this idea from Az.I'm a pathetic little wimp.

 

[G-Man]

To Ubik01: You said you were here. Did you ever see citizens arrested for protesting against goverment policy? Did you ever hear about a non-jew being descriminated in trial? The answer for this is, ofcource, no. Israel has never descriminated anyone.
All that fascist racist counry is totally bullfeathers!
I can go to the streets, shouting Fu** Sharon, and unless I'll awake my nehibors no one can or will force me to stop. If you're saying Israel is descriminating Palestinians, it's just the same as if I sayd your goverment is descriminating me.
About the military service- The Min service is 3 years, not 5 as you sayd, and a lot of people doesn't have to do it, including - non jews, facifists, people with serious medical problems, and other populations that may not want to conscript.
If you say Israel is a racist country, then I guess you can also support your claim with facts. It's very hard for me to answer to you when you accuse Israel without any base to support your ideas.
About Palestinians inside Israel - They have all rights that any other citizen have. My father is running a company with one. My physics teacher is an arab Israeli. If you've ever heard about parlament member Bshara, an arab Israeli, that has done many provocative things, such as his visit to syria and his support to Hizbala's terror attacks, even after we withdrew from Lebannon. He is still free, wasn't put on trial on any of the above, and still has all the rights that other parlament members have.

ALL WHAT I SAYD ABOVE ARE FACTS. ISRAEL IS NOT A RACIST COUNTRY.
If what you're saying are facts then why do you never support it with real evidences, like I do?

About settlments - Their getting larger because the Israeli public is angry with the Palestinians and wants to show them that they won't drive us out of their territory-to-be by shooting at us, only by stoping all violence and continuing the peace process. As you already showed you don't know, Israel is a free country, and anyone may live anywhere he wants. As I said, if the Palestinians wouldn't start the current intifada, all settlments were already evacuated and no new ones were built.

The brits devided the country in 2, half for us and half (the larger half, actually) to the Palestinians. The Palestinians, that didn't recognize our right to have a country, attacked us supported by their arab allies (do you remember anyone condeming them for that? 'cause then we were the weak side). Israeli troops had to evacuate the Palestinian towns, because our army didn't have enough troops to spare to check all Palestinian buildings for weapons, and if we didn't evacuate them then they would probably attack our cities, that were left unprotected when almost all men and women went to battle. The Arabs did the same to Israeli towns they took over (Beit Ha'arave for example). Many arabs, that showed they had no intension to attack us, were left in their villages. So did the druzes, Armenians, Christians and other communities, that are here untill today.

About our right to have our country - If you'd check it out, I'm sure you'll see that Israel today is about half the size of king Salomons empire, streching from the red sea to northern mesopotamia. If we wanted to rebuild our empire, we would have to take lands from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebannon, Turkey and Iraq. Much like greece, we only want the areas that are truditionally a part of Israel.

To Dogberry
First, let me assure you that Israeli citizens, like citizens of other western countries, will never give up Democracy.

What you don't understand is that while Democracies usually look like peacfull countries, they can also become angry very quickly. In other Democracies, you don't see this because they're usually not at war. I'd like to see how mercyfull will the American public be if Mexico will attack you (I'm not comparing it to what's going on here, I'm just rying to give you an idea about an entire country that feels it's being attacked). The fact is that Your army will immedietly take over mexico, even if they're weaker.

About giving up Jerusalem - As I sayd before, Israel will need to be destroyed before giving up Jerusalem. We might allow the Palestinians to have some buildings, maybe even some streets of the city, but they'll never get large parts of the city. And the most important place for them - Al-aqsa - is practivly theirs. Non muslims are not allowed there, and the entire place is under the authority of Palestinians Police

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.iaf.org.il/images/aircrafts/allplanes.jpg" border=0>
Are you talking to me?

 

[Dogberry_Old]

G-Man
I hoped that you are right & I am wrong.. because with a Democracy there is always the hope that the right answers will be found. Let me point out.. 3 reasons why I am not hopeful:

- Isreali society is under intense pressure & is likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. This gives the anti-democratic forces in your own country more power as people look for simple, forceful solutions.

- The growth of Fanaticism & Zealotry inside Isreal. This is obvious & does not need expansion here.. except the Rabin Assasination & the Massacre at the Mosque are signposts in this trend.

- Simple Demographics are against Isreal remaining a "Jewish State".. in time this overcomes all & I am sure that everybody in a position of responsibility recognises this. The only to overcome this is by methods that will turn World & U.S. Opinion against you. Can you take these measures & still remain democratic when the pressure really ratchets up against you ? I doubt it.

The only real solution for Isreal is peace & a measure of reconcillation with your neighbors. An unaccepted Jewish State in the midst of a sea of enemies is NOT a viable option.

Dog

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by Ubik01:

Another fact: Your leaders (namely, Sharon at this time) are mostly fascists. They can’t be anything else – most of them have a long history in your army and usually army people are not exactly democratic.

Wasn't George Washington in the army? Wasn't Eisenhower in the army? Not even counting the generals, most US Presidents have served in the army.
P.S. Wasn't Sharon elected? (And the people there directly vote for the PM, unlike the US, which dilutes the populations will with the electoral college.)How is that undemocratic?

Give me a neighbor of Israel that elects its leader? (No Turkey doesn't directly border them)

------------------
... I'm off to join the riots now.

 

[G-Man]

To dogberry-
- There are no anti-Democratic forces in Israel. No one will support them
- May I remind you that the Rabin assasinator is spending his life in prison (No death penalty in Israel), and that if the man who commited the mosque massacre wouldn't die he would be sharing the same faith? Every country has extrimists, but the difference is between a democratic state that arrests them (Israel) and a tyrrany that does nothing about them (The Palestinian authority).
- 30 years ago simple demographics showed that by now the arabs will have a majority here. What these simple demographics forget is that there are millions ofjews world wide that will never let that happen. Israel is the shelter to all jews. When the USSR collapsed, most citizens stayed there and are still there today. The jews, however, had Israel. So today People with russian roots work in Israel in high-tech jobs, and are in much better condition then their former commrads. Similar things happened in Africa.
So today, there are 8% more arabs in Israel, but jewish population grew by 27% because of jewish people coming from other countries.


Again, you're saying things without any base. Look at my messages. They're almost all facts. I know where I live, and you can't convince me I'm not living in a Democracy just like I would'nt be able to convince you that the US will soon become communist. Because both things are totaly wrong.

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.iaf.org.il/images/aircrafts/allplanes.jpg" border=0>
Are you talking to me?

[This message has been edited by G-Man (edited September 08, 2001).]

 

[Eli]

Another Israeli!

 

[G-Man]

Hey
I saw your posts in the "PLO and Terrorism=cowards" topic and wondered why weren't you posting things in this topic

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.iaf.org.il/images/aircrafts/allplanes.jpg" border=0>
Are you talking to me?

 

[Eli]

I come overhere only when i'm bored.