Milestones for Prince/King difficulty Domination

[The_Drizzle]

Hi all, long-time visitor, first time poster. Civ 5 is proving hard for me to get used to. I benefited greatly from the Specialist Economy style of play on Civ IV outlined by futurehermit and others. I made it a rule of thumb to have 5 specialized cities by 500 BC - sort of a simple milestone. I also would have the Pyramids (representation) and the Great Library by then. The territory those cities would give me would also be pretty significant - this would almost always lead to domination or space victory on Monarch difficulty.

In Civ 5 I'm lucky to have 3 cities by this time if I go Nat'l College first. My science is around 50 beakers (education beeline finished), but I don't control a lot of territory. Could anyone give me some simple milestones to help me on my way? Yes I know, every game is different, yada yada - I've put 40 hours into 3 civs, and have yet to finish a game. I'm just trying to get a domination win - every time I discover the new world I find a civ with 10 cities and 20 military units, to my 5 and 10 (Continents, King, Standard size and speed, Washington currently). What sorts of milestones should I be gunning for on my way to a domination victory? A certain capital city pop by a certain time, a certain beaker output, a certain number of luxury resources, a certain number of military units . . ? Just trying to get some structure since I feel out of my element in this new, sized-down (in terms of cities and military) version of the game.

 

[Beld]

Hi and welcome! I hope that we get some good conversation going in this thread! I've started to notice some milestones, but I'm only playing once or twice a week right now, so I can't really recall them vividly at the moment. Also, I've been playing on marathon but the pace isn't that 'sweet spot' it was for me in C4. I'm trying epic now, seems better. I go on that tangent just to disclaim that any milestones I give will be with those speeds in mind!

I'm by no means great, but I seem to recall:

60gpt in Medieval
80gpt in Renaissance
120gpt in late Ren/mid Industrial
200/240gpt by Industrial (I usually win before Modern, though I've been as high as 500+gpt, I've seen some with 1000+? I wish!)

For science, I want to say I'm at 88bpt pretty fast (Classical/Medieval?) this is with NC before rex or (more often) after second or third city, since it's not that hard to get libs built that fast, and rex=more money for early workers and barb exploration.

I start to go on the attack after 4 to 6 units depending on their mix and exp.

Unless you are going for some early culture/policies, or you're going for a culture win or puppet empire, it's best to REX, like in CivIII.

If you want to keep a small core but go for domination and puppets, I'd recommend Ghandi, Darius, and Napoleon, though pretty much all but Ghandi can also go for a big, self settled empire. Come to think of it, Ghandi isn't a very good warmonger (he probably already knows that!) but he is good at having a tight lil empire! If you want to go big and Dom victory, go Wu(if you're having money problems) or Napoleon/Askia (if you're having policies/border probs), or Egypt (if you're a wonder builder and are having border/happyness problems)

Regarding you're worry about discovering the other continent(s) which have large (maybe runaway) civs, it's not always all bad, especially if all you're wanting to do is go for a domination victory. You should be able to survive 2 to 1 numbers on soldiers, and actually something like 4 or 5 to 1 isn't the end of the world. Just make sure to bring a Great General and find a defensible position on a forest/hill/peninsula. DOW, dig in, and mow down their first few waves. Also, naval power is FAR more effective than in past civs. Park your invasion force near a good spot on the coast, and you have invincible artillery (ships) that by Renaissance should have 2 attacks per turn and bonuses to attacking land units. Even 2 or 3 ships is enough to cause serious trouble with 4 or 5 units on land.

Edit: Also, is that name from ATHF?

 

[The_Drizzle]

Thanks for the great response Beld, you answered my questions and got me on the right track. Is the purpose of rex mainly to grab the all important resources, or is there "efficiency" in an empire of many cities with smaller populations? I currently have 10 in my capital, 4 in the others, is that too lopsided? Should all the cities end up with around 4 or 5 pop? (I know ghandi is a different story, just for other civs I mean).

And yeah, The Drizzle soaks criminals with the rain of justice (when they're outside).

 

[Smote]

Make sure you get your capital big. A lot of people don't realize/emphasize that one of the major perks of national college is the 50% science it brings, which scales very well with population and libraries.

Its good that you are doing education beeline for beakers and social policies. However, that tech strategy will give you many problems for warring until riflemen/cannons. This is because you get pikemen fast (but they aren't good enough to conquer a nation), but you get longswordsmen slow. However, you get cannons and riflemen fast. If you want many puppets, make full use of these. Otherwise, wait for modern era, while using a few to defend and conquer slowly.

If you want to war with longswords, I would advise go straight for steel after writing. Build an army at the expense of everything else. If you want to war with swords, I would advise beeline iron working (no nat coll).

Optimized rushes like this provide much more significant and easier gains than slow attacks.

Also, to remember:
Emphasize production in capital until civil service.
Emphasize food in capital after civil service.
Emphasize production everywhere else [core cities + peripherals]
Emphasize food in secondary or tertiary core cities after civil service, but only until a reasonable size and only if happiness allows and you want social policies [not ICS'ing] (7-9 max before full switch back to production... can maybe go higher after theatres later)

Peripherals size 2/4/6 [circus/collo/circus+collo] max without exception. Unless you rebrand one of them as a core city [it must have suitable production...]

Examples of peripherals that may be re-branded as core cities are cities with many sea resources. Once you get seaport, they have high production and may be converted. Do not sell workshop in such cities.

All core cities must have:
Granary
Water mill [if applicable]
Collosseum
Workshop
Library
University [must use science specialist]

Make sure you build Ironworks. Sell all extra workshops in peripherals after. [Unless they still need to make collosseum/market, or they actually do have size 9/11 potential w/ theatre]

Note that a major advantage of Egypt in particular is their burial chambers, which allow for size 2/4/6/8 peripherals. [Burial chamber/Burial chamber+Circus/Burial chamber+Collo/Burial chamber+Collo+Circus]

Note also that each extra 2 population you give to a core city means that you could have had an extra peripheral instead. [That 2 population might be better though, because of the amount of time it takes to get a peripheral set up.] Generally speaking, peripherals are better for production and defense but worse for culture. I generally do not build library or university in my peripherals, unless they are a size 6+ peripheral.

 

[Beld]

Thanks for the great response Beld, you answered my questions and got me on the right track. Is the purpose of rex mainly to grab the all important resources, or is there "efficiency" in an empire of many cities with smaller populations? I currently have 10 in my capital, 4 in the others, is that too lopsided? Should all the cities end up with around 4 or 5 pop? (I know ghandi is a different story, just for other civs I mean).

No problem, I'm sure the real experts will weigh in soon and debunk some of my assertions so I'll likely learn some things too!

Basically, you want to rex because more population=more gpt since trading posts give +2 gold, as opposed to the typical improvement which gives +1 until some mid-game techs. This thread has some good comments about number of cities and city spacing: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=402413 which corresponds to pop/gpt/workable tiles/population, so that's probably exactly the discussion you're looking for now.

My capital I grow as huge as possible, especially if I'm going puppet empire and/or tradition policy tree. This means if I don't have 12 pop in capital asap (again, I'm fuzzy since I haven't played in a bit, but I think by medieval) then I'm doing it wrong.

So big capital, and maybe two other big cities (pop 8+, usually my military/production/gpp cities, by mid game these secondary cities can be 12/14+ pop or even more. Your capital should be 24 or so, can even get up to 30, I think 38 is what's required for working all tiles?). Anything over 4 pop (though I'm leaning towards 6 pop) gets a library.

I'll run a lot of 2 to 4 pop cities that are GPT farms, their final size just depending on the amount of happiness I can generate depending on so many factors. Also, the more cities you have, the greater your Golden Ages will be, and GAs play a big part in CiV from what I can tell. Darius+Chitzen Itza("Not Chicken Pizza" as the guide told me when I saw it irl ) is just SICK btw.

My city/rex milestones are usually:

1 to 3 cities early
3 to 4 city cap if cultural victory (6 max if they're just too good to pass up)
War (Puppet or Rex in the wake [by razing the enemy city and plopping a settler down in it's spot])
At 6-8 cities build up happiness
Rinse
Repeat

Do note that you only need to take capitals for domination victory, so don't overburden yourself with puppets or number of cities. You just want to keep some happiness in your happy bucket for core empire growth, positive happiness during puppet-ing sprees, and that first golden age. After the first golden age, a dom player should pop anything other than a Great Engineer or Scientist for their additional GA's) Also, the person wins who holds the last capital, so if the AI is too strong, just let them fight until there are only 2 capitals left, then sneak in to steal his!

 

[diz2]

every time I discover the new world I find a civ with 10 cities and 20 military units, to my 5 and 10 (Continents, King, Standard size and speed, Washington currently). What sorts of milestones should I be gunning for on my way to a domination victory? A certain capital city pop by a certain time, a certain beaker output, a certain number of luxury resources, a certain number of military units . . ? Just trying to get some structure since I feel out of my element in this new, sized-down (in terms of cities and military) version of the game.

The problem with these threads is that strategy has a large impact on what you ought to have at any given time. I invest heavily in the war machine early, so I imagine my stats look pretty anemic at turn 100 comared to someone who turtles and grows. But, hopefully by around that time I am well on my way to controlling my continent and getting ready for a growth explosion.

Anyway, I usually play a similar game as you - emperor/continents/standard. I'm bad with turn milestones, but I usually hit my first neighbor when he has 2-3 cities (around turn 65, I'd guess), second neighbor a few turns after I'm done with the first (turn 85 I'd guess.). He'll probably have 3-5 cities. If there is a third neighbor on my continent probably be done with him between turns 100-120.

Then it's beeline to caravels while developing own continent and finding other continent around turn 150(?). The year might be 1200-1300. By this time I'd say science is up to 400-500 and techs are coming fast. I beeline to steam power, railroads, reveal coal/oil/aluminum before putting my expeditionary force together.

When you get to the other continent it will always be pretty much covered in cities. Best case is they are split evenly between civs. Worst case I have ever seen was Augustus owning about 80% of a 4 civ continent. When I find them I usually can get a decent tech lead, but I've launced a few premature invasions and been beaten back into the sea by lesser units.

Lately because techs are coming so fast I have a habit of waiting for destoyers, bombers and mech infantry for the invasion. I can have a good number of these massed up by I'd say the mid 1700's (turn 240 I think?) A good number would be 5 or 6 mech infantry, 8 or so bombers, and 3 or 4 destroyers. This is usually enough to get the job done, even if it is just to establish a beach head until the arrival of stealth bombers and Giant Death Robots. I have a habit of waiting too long for the invasion since the AIs on continent 2 defenses seem worse post patch. I think they fight with each other more.

In my last game I had GDRs available around 1850, and continent 2 largely dominated by 1900 or so.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

First of all welcome to the forums.

Normally I don't play for specific turn/time milestones because those can vary so much depending on the game, victory condition, and difficulty (it's actually much easer to tech faster on Imm/Deity than King and lower).

My strategy as of lately has evolved into something like this 3-6 main cities, these will usually be production focused, and will be build ASAP, before NC. These cities will be in prime locations (rivers are great because the watermill kicks butt, the extra gold is really useful and CS comes early so farms are more productive) and the number depends on the available terrain, map size and how many civs nearby. These main cities will usually be production focused and always build every happiness building available and will grow to their happiness limit (2 for circus, 4 for Colosseum, and 5 for Theater). After the cities are up build libraries everywhere (no monuments) and pick one with good grown potential for NC (this will usually be the capital since I usually take the policy that allows the capital to grow faster). Allow your NC city to grow unrestricted. After you have the NC going you can have your cities build whatever you feel your situation calls for. Depending on the quality of these locations you can let these cities grow larger as happiness allows.

After the core cities are up and NC is built and if there's space left I build more cities. These cities will build Colosseums first. Once they hit size two I cap their growth and focus solely on production until the Colosseum is done. Once completed uncap growth and let them grow to size 4. If they can build a circus that will be the second building built and I let it grow to size 6. These cities are gold/science farms. Normally I don't finish libraries in these cities until universities are available and as soon as I can I build a Univ and make a science specialist.

Instead of building more owned cities some people like to conquer and puppet instead. This is a strategic decision to make and each course has advantages/disadvantages. Own built cities you can control, but you'll get fewer social policies because you own more cities. However you can't control specialist use in puppets (my cities will mostly be running specialists), you also can't control production so they will still build some not as useful buildings and waste some GPT, and more importantly you can't control growth in puppets so they will eat happiness and take pop availability away from your main cities.

Another few things to consider. Research agreements are very powerful so have as many of them as you can. The AI will have much more gold available on harder difficulties and these games will tech faster. Since you're new to CiV you will also need to learn about City States. Maritime are very useful and with a few maritime CS allies your 4 pop cities can run all specialists. You can also get extra gold by selling luxuries to the AI. They will usually pay around 10 GPT, or 300 up front. This is another reason capping growth can be useful, because you can afford to sell all luxuries, not just excess. However on lower difficulties the AI may not have enough $$ to buy them and sign RAs so you may be better off just growing some cities larger and hanging on to your luxuries.

Enjoy

 

[elthrasher]

If you want to win by domination, start your killing early. You don't need the NC right away. Get some swordsmen up ASAP and go bust some heads. The cities you take will improve your tech rate. Leave them as puppets unless you have a compelling reason to annex. Work on the NC while this is going on and upgrade to longswords as soon as you can. You should be at least half done just using longswords. Controlling half the world will give you a tech advantage, so you'll have rifles first. Upgrade to rifles and your veteran troops will roll over the rest of the world with no trouble at all.

You'll want to be constantly at war. Those highly-upgraded units are just so valuable. You can get a +65% terrain bonus to go with your +20% gg bonus and a flanking bonus, basically doubling your combat effectiveness.

Oligarchy is the best social policy. If your enemy has a lot of military, declare war and lure his units into your territory to kill them. If he doesn't have that much, dart in and take a weak city, then use the home turf advantage to kill what he's got after which all his cities are yours for the taking. Raze what you don't want to keep.

For playing on continents, try to clear off your continent by turn 100 (just as a general benchmark - should be doable), then get the techs you need to go after the next one over. It should be sparsely enough populated that you can land your armies prior to declaring war, though you'll want at least some Triremes for barb defense.

Once you make landfall, you've got a couple of options. You could bring along a settler and establish some culture that way for the Oligarchy bonus or you can find a poorly-defended city. I'd tend towards the latter because it will have more culture. Your 10 units will take down 20 easily with good tactics and the combat bonus and healing bonus the territory provides.

 

[Tabarnak]

The problem with these threads is that strategy has a large impact on what you ought to have at any given time. I invest heavily in the war machine early, so I imagine my stats look pretty anemic at turn 100 comared to someone who turtles and grows. But, hopefully by around that time I am well on my way to controlling my continent and getting ready for a growth explosion.

Clearing a continent very fast against 1 or 2 civs only can be very worthful compared to an early warmongering strategy on a pangea. If you don't clear fast enough, you may get dowed so intensively that you will die against 3-4 AIs warring you (or humans).

Turtling is good if you have clearly enough space, ressources and peaceful neighbors.

 

[The_Drizzle]

Sincerely appreciate all the great feedback; I know a lot of threads are answering similar questions (build order/ is a specialist economy possible?/ ICS How to, among others) I just greedily wanted all the basics from those in one thread!

I understand it's hard to generalize, because the idea of Civ games is that you're supposed to find your own path to victory (as long as it's one of the 5 or so ways to win!). Still, that's not entirely true, as the game mechanics dictate what the most efficient styles are, and if you're stuck like I am you are going to get rolled by the AI. For instance, in 4 I was acutely aware of the need to knock off rivals early and often; in 5 there's so much land that separates me from other Civs that I keep delaying war mongering. I'm not getting dow'd usually (on prince/king, keep in mind) until late renaissance/early modern - and even then I'm able to use tactics to mow down the first wave and even the odds (like what Beld was saying). Also as you can see my city/empire management is horrid - I've been trying to build my capital (but not well enough) yet haven't expanded peripheral cities as much as I need to in order to claim resources. I think my main problem is looking at extra cities as giving gold but costing happiness, but forgetting that they are platforms for circuses (circi?!) and coliseums, so in actuality they "pay for themselves" because you can get that happiness back through buildings (while enjoying all the extra gpt). Now that you've explained the general idea of getting NC early, using that 50% bonus to its fullest by making everyone breed like mad there, and expanding the empire in order to jack up the gpt while erecting happiness-providing buildings; I get it.

While I understand everyone's style is different and going to war with steel is much different from waiting for guns, in my current fixation with America I'll probably lean towards the latter. If I NC then rex, how many cities should I get by ~800AD when I get Minutemen? (800 is based off my current game of beelining writing, then education, then gunpowder). Capital, 1 production, 1 gold city, then as many peripherals of 2/4 as I see fit to land grab? Or is there a general number I should shoot for? Thanks again tremendously, you've saved my wall from further damage caused by my head.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

While I understand everyone's style is different and going to war with steel is much different from waiting for guns, in my current fixation with America I'll probably lean towards the latter. If I NC then rex, how many cities should I get by ~800AD when I get Minutemen? (800 is based off my current game of beelining writing, then education, then gunpowder). Capital, 1 production, 1 gold city, then as many peripherals of 2/4 as I see fit to land grab? Or is there a general number I should shoot for? Thanks again tremendously, you've saved my wall from further damage caused by my head.

Lately I've switched from NC then Rex to Rex then NC. Some people in other threads have pointed out that the extra people you get from the extra cities make up for the extra science you would get from the eariler NC, and these core cities will get libraries anyway so you really don't miss out much. I've been shooting for 3-6 cities before the NC (as space and neighbors allow), but in my current archipielago game I only had room for 2 cities, so map makes a big difference here.

For the extra cities I build as many as I can afford the time to make settlers or cash to buy settlers, i.e. I'm not building up military for a war and there's no pressing infrastructure to build. When settling these cities I prioritize resources and Natural Wonders (they are very powerful to have in your borders now).

 

[WeaselSlapper]

One thing I forgot to mention. Each owned city produces 2 unhappiness + 1 unhappiness from each citizen. With the new patch buildings like the Colosseum only combat unhappiness from number of citizens, not the number of cities. So unless and until you get forbidden palace and some other happiness producing or unhappiness reducing SP you will have a happiness hit of two for each city. So you probably want to hold off on too many of the extra cities until after you have some extra happiness available or a bunch of luxuries. So after you run out of resources (even duplicates can help for sale/trade) and natural wonders to settle you should only settle new cities as happiness allow and stop totally if you're trying to get a happiness GA.

 

[elthrasher]

While I understand everyone's style is different and going to war with steel is much different from waiting for guns, in my current fixation with America I'll probably lean towards the latter. If I NC then rex, how many cities should I get by ~800AD when I get Minutemen? (800 is based off my current game of beelining writing, then education, then gunpowder). Capital, 1 production, 1 gold city, then as many peripherals of 2/4 as I see fit to land grab? Or is there a general number I should shoot for? Thanks again tremendously, you've saved my wall from further damage caused by my head.

Longswords have higher combat strength than minutemen. Just in case you didn't know.

But anyway, but 800 AD I'd want to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12 cities. Shoot for at least 6 by 1 AD, then build from there. You'll want to prioritize Coliseums and of course luxuries in order to be able to continue to expand.

What exactly do you mean by a gold city, by the way? A city that has lots of trading posts and gets a market? You'll want more than one of those. The bulk of your cities should work mostly trading posts. You can run a few farms if you want, but with bucketloads of gold coming in, you should be able to buy several maritimes for food (still a good idea even post-patch). Money is the only thing you can't buy!

 

[sharkles]

I haven't noticed any real, recurring milestones. Every time I play I try something different, and I haven't had any two games play out very similarly. Yet.

 

[The_Drizzle]

Took the warmonger advice to heart and used long swordsmen to whip up on my continent with 4 AIs (thanks elthrasher). Didn't get it done by turn 100, but the constant warfare kept the AIs on their heels and my troops farming for XP. Is it a problem that you don't hook up the distant ex-capitals of fallen AIs to your trade network? I wish the puppets would build a harbor, but I dont' feel like spending 20gpt on a road system just to incorporate Delhi into the mix. The city advice has helped a ton Weasel - 5 cities founded, 1 annexed capital and 3 puppeted ones by 1200 AD is probably slow going for you vets, but remarkable progress over my turtle-pace strategy of NC first with little warmongering. Next step is rifles and steam transports

 

[Tabarnak]

Nc first with 50% discount on settlers seems very powerful. It's a nice way to catch up with later cities but at a fast rate. Settling more cities than usual keep your happiness very low and the capital may not grow as fast as usual than with 50% extra food. But more cities can compensate the lack of growth.

I found this very useful for a very early longswordmen rush (around turn 55 quick speed), not so long after a doable swordrush (around turn 35). I made successful rushes on deity with this approach. I can build something else than libraries with my other cities.

 

[Airey]

... I made successful rushes on deity with this approach. I can build something else than libraries with my other cities.

You show off

OP clearly states "Milestones for Prince/King difficulty Domination"

 

[Tabarnak]

You show off

OP clearly states "Milestones for Prince/King difficulty Domination"

No, this is the point. If it works on deity, this can actually be very powerful in lower settings as well. And this can be done with not much micro. You only need iron!

 

[diz2]

Took the warmonger advice to heart and used long swordsmen to whip up on my continent with 4 AIs (thanks elthrasher). Didn't get it done by turn 100, but the constant warfare kept the AIs on their heels and my troops farming for XP. Is it a problem that you don't hook up the distant ex-capitals of fallen AIs to your trade network? I wish the puppets would build a harbor, but I dont' feel like spending 20gpt on a road system just to incorporate Delhi into the mix. The city advice has helped a ton Weasel - 5 cities founded, 1 annexed capital and 3 puppeted ones by 1200 AD is probably slow going for you vets, but remarkable progress over my turtle-pace strategy of NC first with little warmongering. Next step is rifles and steam transports

Trade networks are almost always worth establishing. Though, I can't say I have ever seen a lone city 20 tiles away. Usually on my home continent I get conquered cities in clusters of 2 to 5 with maybe 5 to 7 tiles of empty space to cover.

If you are REXing, your basic choice is to either wait until you have dropped cities to fill in the empty space and then connect with a minimal amount of roads, or pre-build the road connection and drop the cities later. Which one I pick is based on the situation. If I have extra worker turns and a lot of pop in the unconnected cities, it tilts the decision toward buiding the long road ASAP.

If you are playing a puppet empire, the road may not be worth it. The option may exist to save a lot of money if you connect by harbor. I always locate at least one of my core production cities on the coast, even if I only have 2 or 3. Only problem with this is the puppet managers sometimes take forever to build harbors. I have played games where I got tired of waiting for them to build a harbor and built the road because I had 4 cities connected to each other with 20+ pop (total) sitting there unconnected to the trade network.

 

[moffin]

Hey

Ive been a hardcore player on and off since Civ1, but first time on forums. Civ5 gave me new challanges from Civ4. When i started out i had problems on easy mode.. but soon i got the hang of it. Been working up words. Now i won 3 strait games on King mode. 1 with space race, 2 with dominations. Now playin King with crap Otta. And im winning.
I dont know all the abbridiated words u guys use and stuff, but for me its all out ape tactic. I usually make 4 citys and max em as good as i can. Thay are my production citys and im on the defend. Here its VERY important not to overexted, when i get Crossbowmen and Swordmen i go on the offensive and take like 2-3 cityes, i never do poppet. I take then over and make em gold machines with siance to boot. I get them to 10 popp a good number for gold/siance.
Then i wait it out... defending and getting a few City states on my side and do alle then research agreement i can get and get my tanks and infentery running, i put my whole civ to produse em and i blitz the whole world. Same here dont overexted.

Another aproach that also works is after u get 3-4 citys with Crossbowmen and sowrdmen u push but dont take citys... get em to go or peace with bennefits.. this gives u a crazy boost... haraz them all the way up to taks and go blitz.

Sorry for bad english and not the best Civ language...

Soon gonna try the mode after King, any good tips... or does he same strategy work there?