Millenia vs. Civ VI

[SupremacyKing2]

Tried the demo. I really enjoyed it. It seems to have some nice innovations, like the innovation and chaotic events. I like the choice of bonuses when finding a camp. I like that you can improve terrain with points rather than worker units but you can "levy workers" to earn points faster. I like the way governments work. There seems to be lots of specialization that you can do with your civ and your government. I like the city being the region center and you can build towns to extend your borders. I like the stacked combat. That is exactly how I want it where you can stack a few units and have them fight together. Attaching a barbarian camp was fun as my units attacked the walls and the barbarian unit would come out and attack. It was more fun than attacking barbarian camps in civ6. I also like how era can be different. It seems one game might have you go to the era of blood, while another game might have you go to the era of heroes of iron. So it seems that will have replayability to each game. Some games might be more warmonger than others, depending on which eras you are in. I also really like that each era has special rules that change how the era plays. That was one of my ideas for how to make each era feel more unique.

One big thing that I noticed is that building settlers seems very different than civ. No longer can you just spam settler units. Instead it seems you only build settlers with empire level points and only starting in bronze age. It seems like you probably won't builld a ton of settlers at least not early on. So it seems Millennia will emphasize more of a "tall style" where you have a small number of regions with one city per region and lots of towns around your cities and you focus on building up each region to make it powerful. I wonder if there will be bigger maps that allow more regions or if most games will only have a small number of regions per empire.

The stuff I don't like. The tech tree seems very small if you only have to pick 3 techs from a list of 6 techs to move on to the next era. The diplomacy seems very limited. The graphics and art feel a bit "mobile game" to me. For example, the big tech cards, the flashy battle screen with units moving and attacking in a simple animation. The era change screen with the dramatic timeline and flashy "you entered this era".

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

I've seen some videos and I don't like the Benny Hill Show-style combat. It might make more logical sense in later eras when guns are used, but not with swords.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I haven't even tried playing Civ VI without Mods for over three years, and even with Mods I've played less than 50 hours in the past 24 months . . .​

I've spent that time in modding and associated researchings.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Tried the demo. I really enjoyed it. It seems to have some nice innovations, like the innovation and chaotic events. I like the choice of bonuses when finding a camp. I like that you can improve terrain with points rather than worker units but you can "levy workers" to earn points faster. I like the way governments work. There seems to be lots of specialization that you can do with your civ and your government. I like the city being the region center and you can build towns to extend your borders. I like the stacked combat. That is exactly how I want it where you can stack a few units and have them fight together. Attaching a barbarian camp was fun as my units attacked the walls and the barbarian unit would come out and attack. It was more fun than attacking barbarian camps in civ6. I also like how era can be different. It seems one game might have you go to the era of blood, while another game might have you go to the era of heroes of iron. So it seems that will have replayability to each game. Some games might be more warmonger than others, depending on which eras you are in. I also really like that each era has special rules that change how the era plays. That was one of my ideas for how to make each era feel more unique.

One big thing that I noticed is that building settlers seems very different than civ. No longer can you just spam settler units. Instead it seems you only build settlers with empire level points and only starting in bronze age. It seems like you probably won't builld a ton of settlers at least not early on. So it seems Millennia will emphasize more of a "tall style" where you have a small number of regions with one city per region and lots of towns around your cities and you focus on building up each region to make it powerful. I wonder if there will be bigger maps that allow more regions or if most games will only have a small number of regions per empire.

The stuff I don't like. The tech tree seems very small if you only have to pick 3 techs from a list of 6 techs to move on to the next era. The diplomacy seems very limited. The graphics and art feel a bit "mobile game" to me. For example, the big tech cards, the flashy battle screen with units moving and attacking in a simple animation. The era change screen with the dramatic timeline and flashy "you entered this era".

I swear it’s like they used Civ6 as a What Not To Do source of inspiration.

The game seems very anti-munchkin micro, which is exactly what this genre needs.

I've seen some videos and I don't like the Benny Hill Show-style combat. It might make more logical sense in later eras when guns are used, but not with swords.

At this point the graphica are easily the weakest link. One point I have to give Civ6 is, with the exception of hill tiles the graphics are extremely functional, you always know what you are looking at.

The good news is that it’s the easiest thing to improve.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I swear it’s like they used Civ6 as a What Not To Do source of inspiration.

The game seems very anti-munchkin micro, which is exactly what this genre needs.

Yes. I hope Firaxis learns this lesson when they launch civ7. They need to reduce micro and make the game as intuitive as possible. Civ6 has way too much micro.

Another really nice touch is how techs can give you a free unit. So when you get archery, you get an archer unit. It's a nice way of giving the player a little boost to get started, instead of researching a new tech and then having to build the first unit from scratch.

I also appreciate that the game gives you several ways to build units from empire level points in addition to building units in cities. This makes it easier to get armies or get another scout, or get a settler etc... so you don't have to spend so many turns building every unit from cities. It helps speed things up.

 

[Gorbles]

The good news is that it’s the easiest thing to improve.

Ehhh. The graphics ceiling has to be implemented, and also has to account for things like established hardware specifications. Once these targets are locked in, there is a ceiling for graphical improvements, and it isn't often trivial to alter the existing asset pipeline.

It's fair to assume there are quick wins to be made from obvious rough displays, but this isn't always the case. Sometimes they're trapped with what they have, limited in the scope of what they can improve. Happy to be wrong, of course.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Ehhh. The graphics ceiling has to be implemented, and also has to account for things like established hardware specifications. Once these targets are locked in, there is a ceiling for graphical improvements, and it isn't often trivial to alter the existing asset pipeline.

It's fair to assume there are quick wins to be made from obvious rough displays, but this isn't always the case. Sometimes they're trapped with what they have, limited in the scope of what they can improve. Happy to be wrong, of course.

In the case of Millenia the problem is not the raw fidelity of the graphics, it’s how it’s used

Having an archer be represented by an icon of a bow for example, is both incredibly functional and pretty graphically non demanding.

 

[pokiehl]

In the case of Millenia the problem is not the raw fidelity of the graphics, it’s how it’s used

Having an archer be represented by an icon of a bow for example, is both incredibly functional and pretty graphically non demanding.

I think the problem isn’t just fidelity, but overall style. You can uprez the textures all you want but the game will still be ugly.

 

[Gorbles]

In the case of Millenia the problem is not the raw fidelity of the graphics, it’s how it’s used

Having an archer be represented by an icon of a bow for example, is both incredibly functional and pretty graphically non demanding.

While some folks might be into a purely textual / iconographic(al?) display, taking out animated graphics (2D or 3D) and not replacing them with anything, tends to upset expectations in my limited experience. People who prefer MUDs or older games in general have that preference individually, but it's not really that popular in terms of consumer demographics (as far as I'm aware - just look at how Dwarf Fortress' visual upgrade was positively received).

 

[Patine]

The game seems very anti-munchkin micro, which is exactly what this genre needs.

Yes. I hope Firaxis learns this lesson when they launch civ7. They need to reduce micro and make the game as intuitive as possible. Civ6 has way too much micro.

Ideally, the game should be set up where the level micromanagement vs. intuitive play is up to the preference of the player, rather than bending, directly, to arbitrarily declared trends.

 

[Zegangani]

Ideally, the game should be set up where the level micromanagement vs. intuitive play is up to the preference of the player, rather than bending, directly, to arbitrarily declared trends.

I'm a fan of that Approach. Ideally, most micro-heavy mechanics should have an Automation System, and have the Player choose what he wants to micro and what to automate. The Combat in Millennia is a good Example here for a quick-automated System. But also having an Option to choose the Tactics/Orders and Formation of an Army for a semi-automated system (the fight is still automated, but player still can affect the fight beforehand), and also one where I can move each Unit individually (like in Civ, but on the Battle Screen) would be a good middle-ground IMO. Ofc for that to be viable the Devs have to consider that Design approach at the start of the development, but there aren't many individual Micro-heavy Mechanics anyway, so it shouldn't affect the development of other parts of the game much in a negative way.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'm a fan of that Approach. Ideally, most micro-heavy mechanics should have an Automation System, and have the Player choose what he wants to micro and what to automate. The Combat in Millennia is a good Example here for a quick-automated System. But also having an Option to choose the Tactics/Orders and Formation of an Army for a semi-automated system (the fight is still automated, but player still can affect the fight beforehand), and also one where I can move each Unit individually (like in Civ, but on the Battle Screen) would be a good middle-ground IMO. Ofc for that to be viable the Devs have to consider that Design approach at the start of the development, but there aren't many individual Micro-heavy Mechanics anyway, so it shouldn't affect the development of other parts of the game much in a negative way.

I would rather call the combat system ion Millennia a good example of how NOT to automate a process. You are given a very badly done graphic animation of a battle, which you can only watch: the gamer has absolutely no input as to how the battle is fought. Furthermore, when the gamer gets tired of watching the bad battle animation, there is no quick and easy way to opt out of watching. Since, at least in the first 60 turns of the Demo they've released, Battle is virtually unavoidable against barbarians and all too common against 'minor cities' and other Factions, it takes only a few turns of the first game to get really, really tired of this 'combat' system. By the second run-through of the Demo I had a magazine open next to the computer so I had something useful to look at while the battles were churning on.

Any part of the game this important (one out of 4 of the '4Xs') is simply not acceptable as a completely automated process. After a gamer researches the tech required (or in Millennia, picks Raiders or some other militant National Character), builds the units, gathers them into an 'army' and moves it across the map, having it disappear into a Graphic Hole ain't going to fly for long. Any part of a game this important to the outcome of the game has to allow some gamer input to the process, or the game will seem to be Too Random (even if it isn't, it will appear so and that is enough to kill the game in the long run)

This is particularly annoying since the game includes several already-implemented features potentially subject to gamer input: each unit has separate attack and defense factors, the mechanic of Army Leaders promoted from the units is present, yet the gamer cannot use any of these things to influence how the battle is fought, even in very general terms.

I agree that Required micromanagement is Bad Game Design. I would also note that both Civ V and VI's 1UPT and Humankind's 'drop-down' battle map implementation both require far more micromanagement - moving individual units, maneuvering over a detailed battlefield, fighting each individual unit to unit combat - than Millennia's does. But both Civ and Humankind also make certain that the gamer has definite input as to what happens in each of the 4Xs in the game. Combined with Millennia's Design Decision to make everything about your Civ General and non-specific so you can build it any way you want, the result is a combat system with no special units, no special attributes to any army or unit, and no way to influence the battle other than by Grand Strategic decisions made long before in choosing what to build, what attributes to seek for the Civ. I am afraid that is going to be pretty thin gruel for the average gamer to put up with for very long.

 

[tedhebert]

Finally tried it on this last day... not much to add VS all that's been said before...

Still, my OPINIONS...

A few things I found interesting and/or exciting:
- improvement pts instead of builders feels more versatile and natural to me
- Having to research for Pioneers and Envoys to expand seems a better system than CIV settlers to me
- I like the army system, but it's hardly revolutionary VS Old World and Humankind. Still better than simple 1UPT of CIV 5 and 6.
- The cities/town/vassals system seems ok to me... Not sure it end up better than civ though in the long run

I disliked or didn't enjoy:

- Diplo felt very boring and non-responsive to me. Of course, An alpha demo with 60 turns is certainly not the best way to get a real feel, but... bah
- I can't stress enough how much the graphics AND the UI turns me off. This is supposed to be an AAA product, not an indie offering. I know it's not a finished product, but at this point in the dev process,
the graphics ain't going to change dramatically, and they're simply (at best) early 2000 indie level. Unacceptable. As a hardcore 4X player who spends thousands of hours on my preferred games, There's just no way I'm going to endure this.

Frankly, I've had much more fun playing old World than this.

Still, I really hope that FXs are taking notes on Old World's unit movement system, and this game's Improvement points system, and of the fact that 1UPT CAN be made more interesting with limited army systems like those two games and Humankind's
when they get to final designs of the game systems of CIV7.

Now wondering how ARA will turn out ;-) Hope they let out a demo too so we can get a feel of it...

EDIT: Oh ... and the combat screen ? As this is a G-rated board, I will keep any possible comment I have on it to myself... But, hey, Paradox; This is NOT a Commodore 64 game ok ?

 

[Tobizi]

Just my two cents:
Regarding combat: You can skip the combat screen if you right klick on the card symbol on the top right. However, you then just see what unit health remains on the map and have no combat log or sth. else. (Overall I dislike combat representation as well.)
A minor thing I disliked was the banner with the date over the screen at the beginning of the turn. It felt like an unnecessary delay, every single turn...
Micro management, products, improvement points all felt good. And I had several games with very different approaches (camp/meat heavy, grain heavy, combat heavy, vassal heavy). If balancing turns out to be well, I think you can have very different games depending on your starting position. But I also had starting position with rarely any ressource and other games with plenty ressources. So please, let me chose my first settlement!

 

[Prester John 2]

The game feels amazing so far, kudos to the developpers! I've played the demo more than 10 times, still feels fresh and engaging. So many possibilities!
I have a couple of questions:

What kind of modding opportunities are planned? (Map editor, nations, unit modding, timeline ...) Will there be a mod tutorial? I believe that past Civ games were so popular because they could be adjusted/expanded by modders to specific contexts. That will help the game keeping fresh.

Will we will be able to choose different game speeds? The game right now feels quite fast.

Will there be a notifications systems, where I get notified when a certain threshold (improvement points) is met or an important event has occurred? Right now for instance I can see a replay of a battle but I have to actively search for it.

What is the maximum limit of nations that can be in one game? Can new nations emerge later on (as breakoffs fi.)?

 

[civac]

Realistically you want an option to autoskip the combat. With a succint report on the outcome (that is not a pop-up). Rough tactical guidelines would make the saystem much better. It would give the player the impression to be involved in the process and there are times whne it matters. For example ,during an attack sometimes you want to go all out to break through and sometimes a conservative approach with low casualties is better.

 

[Prester John 2]

Realistically you want an option to autoskip the combat. With a succint report on the outcome (that is not a pop-up). Rough tactical guidelines would make the saystem much better. It would give the player the impression to be involved in the process and there are times whne it matters. For example ,during an attack sometimes you want to go all out to break through and sometimes a conservative approach with low casualties is better.

There's already an option to autoskip. Look at the little red x on the lower right side beneath the display.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Still, I really hope that FXs are taking notes on Old World's unit movement system...

Firaxis already have an innovation far better/simpler than Old World's unit movement system:

Card Combat.

Introduced in Marvel's Midnight Suns, it really is a better fit for the Civilization franchise than MMS/XCOM.
(Like the duck-billed platypus, it did - and has - confused the hell out of everyone. Little known fact: MMS is not a deck builder - despite the multitude of YouTubes).

I'm 100% sure Firaxis have a prototype of Civ with card combat already

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Millenia release date on Steam is March 26, 2024! Pre-ordering is also unlocked on Steam! Price is $39.99.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

The game feels amazing so far, kudos to the developpers! I've played the demo more than 10 times, still feels fresh and engaging. So many possibilities!
I have a couple of questions:

What kind of modding opportunities are planned? (Map editor, nations, unit modding, timeline ...) Will there be a mod tutorial? I believe that past Civ games were so popular because they could be adjusted/expanded by modders to specific contexts. That will help the game keeping fresh.

Will we will be able to choose different game speeds? The game right now feels quite fast.

Will there be a notifications systems, where I get notified when a certain threshold (improvement points) is met or an important event has occurred? Right now for instance I can see a replay of a battle but I have to actively search for it.

What is the maximum limit of nations that can be in one game? Can new nations emerge later on (as breakoffs fi.)?

It's poorly explaine dbut regarding notifications:

There is a notification panel, it's near the top right corner, it lists often the battles, as well as other things.

You can set yourself reminders for items, all except integration, but you can set yourself reminders for imporovements, or powers, I think it's Ctrl+CLick or something, I discovered that in the tooltip while playing the 60 turn demo. It then sets a notifcation when you have accumulated enough points.