Minimum Wage: What's the Other Argument?

[MobBoss]

Let me ask you something...if money were not an issue would you choose to flip burgers? You get paid the same thing either way, and you want to claim that flipping burgers and sucking butt from obnoxious customers all day is what you want to do?

Here's a thought...pay the burger flippers enough that they can support their family and spare some time and money to get some training and they'll probably all be looking to be EMTs and dental hygienists, even if it is for the same money, because flipping burgers sux.

Fwiw, there are a lot worse jobs out there than flipping burgers. Hell, I flip burgers voluntarily for my family on the weekends! That is to say, I do it on my grill at home.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Fwiw, there are a lot worse jobs out there than flipping burgers. Hell, I flip burgers voluntarily for my family on the weekends! That is to say, I do it on my grill at home.

I'm gonna make a wild guess that your family treats you better than the average burger flipper at your local fast food establishment gets treated.

And I think the "worse jobs" thing is a matter of opinion. I've had lots of jobs that most people wouldn't want, but none of them were as bad, in my opinion, as front line retail, be it fast food or clerking at the chain drug store or what have you.

I did front line retail as a car salesman, and made a whole lot of money...and still didn't think dealing with schmucks on parade every day was worth it. For minimum wage I'd have quit day one, probably an hour in, and likely offered a customer as a human sacrifice on my way out the door.

 

[sophie]

Fwiw, there are a lot worse jobs out there than flipping burgers. Hell, I flip burgers voluntarily for my family on the weekends! That is to say, I do it on my grill at home.

Yeah and I both clean bathrooms at home and as a job. If I had another option I would not be cleaning bathrooms for pay. There's a difference between casually flipping burgers in the comfort of your own home and flipping 30 burgers at a time while having a manager breathing down your neck while having to deal with pissed off customers for 10 hours. Anybody who thinks fry cook is a job anybody would take willingly, regardless of pay, has never actually worked as a fry cook before.

 

[MobBoss]

I'm gonna make a wild guess that your family treats you better than the average burger flipper at your local fast food establishment gets treated.

Actually, I've flipped burgers in my life for McDonalds, Burger Queen and a Dairy Queen. Flipping burgers isn't all that bad, and I never got treated bad.

Now..the front counter person that has to deal with people can get treated bad. But burger flippers? To me, that was almost like factory line work. Places like McDonalds has it down to a science where you can cook 8 Quarter Pounder patties in a matter of minutes, and during a rush that is all you really do. Park yourself in front of the grill, hit timer buttons and flip meat, and construct burgers. Actually makes the time go by rather quick.

And I think the "worse jobs" thing is a matter of opinion. I've had lots of jobs that most people wouldn't want, but none of them were as bad, in my opinion, as front line retail, be it fast food or clerking at the chain drug store or what have you.

Try calling to interview victims of domestic violence about what happened to them, and to see if they are willing to testify in court about it.

I did front line retail as a car salesman, and made a whole lot of money...and still didn't think dealing with schmucks on parade every day was worth it. For minimum wage I'd have quit day one, probably an hour in, and likely offered a customer as a human sacrifice on my way out the door.

I actually tried a short stint as an vacuum cleaner sales guy. I wouldn't say I was treated bad, but it wasn't for me. I can talk a great game, and put on the charisma, but I'm too honest to try and sell you something you don't really want.

Yeah and I both clean bathrooms at home and as a job. If I had another option I would not be cleaning bathrooms for pay. There's a difference between casually flipping burgers in the comfort of your own home and flipping 30 burgers at a time while having a manager breathing down your neck while having to deal with pissed off customers for 10 hours. Anybody who thinks fry cook is a job anybody would take willingly, regardless of pay, has never actually worked as a fry cook before.

I have worked as a fry cook...and I stand by my comment that there are far worse jobs out there. Ever work at a grain elevator?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I have worked as a fry cook...and I stand by my comment that there are far worse jobs out there. Ever work at a grain elevator?

I worked pulling sacks of dirt off a pallet and holding them over a hatch on the top of a tank while my partner cut the bottom out with a knife. Thirty six 100 pound sacks to a pallet, with every other pallet being my turn with the knife. I'd go back to that before I flipped burgers, because even if I'm ten feet back away from that front counter my instinct would be to shove a burger in someone's mouth even if it was 'just a coworker' they were browbeating. Character flaw, I suppose.

 

[Borachio]

Worse job I ever had was working in a chicken factory. I remember having to put my hand up several hundred chickens backsides in a day, and wondering whether this was how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. Still, I was very young. I'd probably have a different attitude if I had to do it today.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Worse job I ever had was working in a chicken factory. I remember having to put my hand up several hundred chickens backsides in a day, and wondering whether this was how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. Still, I was very young. I'd probably have a different attitude if I had to do it today.

Just the term "chicken factory" seems intrinsically flawed. I worked briefly in a salad factory, which also seems flawed but was actually pretty fun.

 

[MobBoss]

Worse job I ever had was working in a chicken factory. I remember having to put my hand up several hundred chickens backsides in a day, and wondering whether this was how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. Still, I was very young. I'd probably have a different attitude if I had to do it today.

That sounds a lot worse than flipping burgers.

 

[Borachio]

I can see that now, Mr Nothin. It's the people you work with that make or break a job, I think. What you're actually doing is often irrelevant.

 

[kramerfan86]

Let me ask you something...if money were not an issue would you choose to flip burgers? You get paid the same thing either way, and you want to claim that flipping burgers and sucking butt from obnoxious customers all day is what you want to do?

Here's a thought...pay the burger flippers enough that they can support their family and spare some time and money to get some training and they'll probably all be looking to be EMTs and dental hygienists, even if it is for the same money, because flipping burgers sux.

So you really think someone will spend their money to go to school to scrape teeth and breathe in people's bad breath for the exact same pay? I just dont see it.

 

[Borachio]

I disagree completely.

I know a dental hygienist who seems to genuinely love his job.

Why on earth would anyone devote themselves to a job they hate solely for money? The sooner people stop doing that the better, imo.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

I'm not convinced either way regarding a raised minimum wage at $15. Maybe it's a good way to counter deflation if you've got a problem with that.

I disagree completely.

I know a dental hygienist who seems to genuinely love his job.

Why on earth would anyone devote themselves to a job they hate solely for money? The sooner people stop doing that the better, imo.

Someone's got to work..? I think you've got an obligation to at least try to contribute to society, even if it means more work and less playtime. Maybe your dental hygienist is on some medication or maybe he's just lucky. A lot of people aren't thrilled about their work. Living in a country with high taxes, very extensive social security, public health care and extremely high intake of asylum seekers, it's a tad insulting view of the providers - as them working solely for their own happiness' sake. No work ethic in the world?

 

[Borachio]

I can't believe that anyone would spend all their time and energy training as a periodontist simply because it's well paid. That makes zero sense to me.

What people will do simply for the money is extremely badly paid low skill work. And even then not always. Some people with learning difficulties are only too pleased to do that sort of work.

It's a matter of finding the right worker for the right work, imo. Get it wrong and you've got misery. And there's an awful lot of getting it wrong.

Now, you might say that there simply aren't enough high skilled jobs for the number of qualified workers available and that someone inevitably must do the menial work and this means that someone is going to be finding themselves in work which is beneath their capabilities.

I don't agree it is inevitable.

 

[Sonereal]

Why on earth would anyone devote themselves to a job they hate solely for money? The sooner people stop doing that the better, imo.

Let me ask you something...if money were not an issue would you choose to flip burgers? You get paid the same thing either way, and you want to claim that flipping burgers and sucking butt from obnoxious customers all day is what you want to do?

It is almost as if there is a nuanced middle ground between these two viewpoints where an individual is not a two-dimensional caricature and therefore accepts a job or career for a myriad of reasons including compensation and passion.

 

[Borachio]

Take away the obligation to work and I think you'd surprised at how many people would positively enjoy flipping burgers. Maybe not for year after year, but then I don't expect it's the sort of job that people do nowadays year after year anyway.

As for obnoxious customers, I don't think there should be any obligation to give them any burgers.

 

[Sonereal]

Take away the obligation to work and I think you'd surprised at how many people would positively enjoy flipping burgers. Maybe not for year after year, but then I don't expect it's the sort of job that people do nowadays year after year anyway.

True, but without an obligation to work, wouldn't a person just stay home and flip burgers on their own time? Or maybe I'm understanding you wrong?

 

[Borachio]

Well, flipping burgers isn't all there is to it. There's getting out and about (if you're doing it at some outdoor event, say), and there's getting to meet the public to some extent, and there's interaction with your co-workers.

There can even be an element of theatre about it.

Or you might be doing it solely on your own account, and starting out in the business world! Exciting, eh?

 

[El_Machinae]

An increase in minimum wage doesn't decrease what a dental hygienist makes, unless the DH's value is around the new minimum wage.

Yes, we WANT educated people, but widespread education will paradoxically bring down relative wages in the short-term. Think about the INCREDIBLE leverage Microsoft Office brings to a modern secretary vs. 30 years ago (in their work-product), and who bore the cost of learning it. And yet, due to the ubiquity of that knowledge, secretary wages haven't risen faster than inflation. Vastly increased productivity but no rise in wages? The economics make sense, but it should boggle your intuition

In 1880, a semiliterate seminumerate could make a 'living wage'. Now they can't. This is because economic forces bid up the price of underlying commodities, but drive down the PRICE (not the value) of skills as they become more common.

 

[Sonereal]

An increase in minimum wage doesn't decrease what a dental hygienist makes, unless the DH's value is around the new minimum wage.

This isn't entirely true.

In fact, only five staff members at Gramma's School House were affected when New Jersey upped its minimum wage to $8.25. But Riley didn't want to increase the pay of the least experienced employees without also rewarding those who had been there the longest. So she increased everyone's pay by $.25 an hour.

She says it will increase her labor costs by $10,000 to $15,000 annually, a fact she's not happy about, since she'll be taking a pay cut to cover it.

Riley is not alone. When there's a minimum wage increase, some small business owners will raise the pay for most, if not all, hourly workers in order to preserve their wage structure and retain quality employees.

Source: CNN Money

 

[Loppan Torkel]

I can't believe that anyone would spend all their time and energy training as a periodontist simply because it's well paid. That makes zero sense to me.

What people will do simply for the money is extremely badly paid low skill work. And even then not always. Some people with learning difficulties are only too pleased to do that sort of work.

It's a matter of finding the right worker for the right work, imo. Get it wrong and you've got misery. And there's an awful lot of getting it wrong.

Now, you might say that there simply aren't enough high skilled jobs for the number of qualified workers available and that someone inevitably must do the menial work and this means that someone is going to be finding themselves in work which is beneath their capabilities.

I don't agree it is inevitable.

That's why people study to become archaeologists, which is what they've always dreamed of, and then, after many years of flipping burgers, study to become dental hygienists. Because it beats flipping burgers and there's a greater demand for dental hygienists compared to archaeologists. Not very complicated. It's work.