Minor Civs, Nation States, and AI

[Kailric]

I don't know if my saves would work with your latest version, if you think it can, then I shall try and create a new save for you, it should be fairly easy to premake a situation for a double vassalage.

Does it create the Vassal Lord player, or does a leader join you? I would need a save before the event happens so that it happens on next turn. I should be able to look at the code and tell. I want to get this fixed before I upload next version.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

No it creates the vassal lord. The Henry VIII looking guy.

Give me a minute and I will try to build you a save using world builder.

Crap... the game has started crashing when trying to load a new conquest map on large...

Ok I was able to load a normal size map. I wonder if my computer is being stupid or if it is the mod...

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Ok fingers crossed this is what you need.

Hopefully when you push next turn you should have two vassals begging for your affection.

One thing I forgot to do before closing the game was to test if I could get two tax collectors and tax them both... DOH!

 

[Kailric]

I'll test it out when I get home. I have been using "large" map setting for the Medieval_Conquest with no issues.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

yeah I know, all my other games were large it was huge that was giving me the issue, then today it started crashing on large too..I don't know why.

 

[Kailric]

Ok fingers crossed this is what you need.

Hopefully when you push next turn you should have two vassals begging for your affection.

One thing I forgot to do before closing the game was to test if I could get two tax collectors and tax them both... DOH!

Ok, I was able to load the save and generate the bug the next turn, great work Lib!! I'll be able to solve this now asap. I can already tell the issue. If you mouse over the two villages one has Vassal owner listed as the Player, the other Vassal Owner is listed as "Vassal Owner", so somehow the wrong Player is being assigned on more than one converts.

Funny thing is I had created a save myself called "Vassal Save" to test a single Vassal convert and I had loaded that first. I was like, "wow, this is very similar to my game. Hmm, only one Vassal Converted. Oh, this is my game!"

Thanks to Nightinggale for always hounding me about preserving saved games because I would not have been able to load your save if not for that

Remember for Vassals, once every 10 turns you can demand a Tribute by going to the City with a trader, loading him up, the click something about Vassal dues, can't remember exact wording

 

[Kailric]

Ok, I fixed the Vassal bug and both cities where able to draw taxes. I hope to post another update for this development branch tomorrow.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Nice looking forward to it!

I was wondering how much you could leech out of a vassal, so every ten turns, nice!

 

[Kailric]

Good news, bad news.

I fixed the FaireWeather version for M:C. I see why I never use it for testing as I takes a long time to load it. Also, the other map loaded just fine for me, so all three work for me now.

I have encountered a crash bug in the Delayed Response code and am working to fix this issue before the next upload, that is the bad news. Not sure how long that will take as Night knows more about this than I do so I'll need his help.

 

[Kailric]

I reposted my reply to the New Victory Conditions thread since that was what I was talking about...

 

[Kailric]

I am thinking about having a few different ways to gain Vassals. Currently it is Cultural Based (I think mostly) but we could add more, like based on Trading, Military, Religious etc. and it depends on the Cities character to which way they would be more susceptible.

Military-> You pretty much have to beat them down, down boy down, now heel!
Cultural-> They stand in Awe of your Magnificent Empire
Trading-> You must establish three levels of Trade buildings: Trade Post, Trading Center, and League Office. When you have Built your Trading League you can start to found League Offices. Enough trading and the City could ask to join your League. Boom, got'em!
Religious-> Your Missionaries are hard at work, if they really like your Religion you can call them in that way as well.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I like it!

 

[Nightinggale]

Religious-> Your Missionaries are hard at work, if they really like your Religion you can call them in that way as well.

That was a strategy, which were actually used. There are historical documents in Lisbon, which clearly states that Portugal viewed Japan as a colony they "just" needed to gain control in. Logically it had to belong to Portugal because it was a rich country and Portugal wanted the money (great logic). However being a rich country, they couldn't be conquered with money. At the time Japan had more soldiers than Portugal had people meaning a direct attack didn't work either. They came up with the idea to send missionaries.

However because the converts were not that peaceful (destroying Buddhist temples, killing people refusing to convert etc.) Japan expelled all missionaries. Later they expelled all foreigners and was isolated for 250 years. Early in that time, the converts made a rebellion where they conquered a castle, though they lost big time when the main army arrived. Due to that event, it became illegal to be Christian with a punishment of death. However Christianity didn't die out because the whole issue was a matter of public order and safety. In other words, they never really hunted for "silent Christians".

Yeah it's an approach to conquer foreign cities, but apparently it can backfire quite badly. Maybe we should consider sideeffects of pursuing a takeover if it fails.

 

[Kailric]

Yeah it's an approach to conquer foreign cities, but apparently it can backfire quite badly. Maybe we should consider sideeffects of pursuing a takeover if it fails.

I like side effects. Yeah, reading about the Hanseatic League and how the German cities would instead of warring with each other like the Italian cities, they united in leagues, with Hanseatic and Swabian being the most famous, is what inspired me to write that post.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

The mission concept in this already has elements like "It failed and they killed the missionary" or "The missionary from that other city is more convincing than yours so we burnt your mission to the ground".

I suppose it could have some kind of 'Dice roll' that occurs every X turns to see if something bad happens, but I would think this then needs to expand to all the vassal assimilation types.

I think it would be better to add in something to the current diplomacy system, something like the diplomatic faux pas event in Civ.

Where say, every interaction with natives (like building a mission, or trade post) can lead to an event that causes a hit to diplomatic relations with that group, and if relations go bad, we already know what natives do!

WAR! Huh good god y'all! What is it good for! Apparently releasing the built up tension of natives...

 

[Kailric]

Well, I have Minor Civs (aka Natives in M:C) using Workers now. It didn't take much code really, now just need to decide what they should be allowed to build. At the moment they can build anything because Natives are ignored on the "has tech to build" list since they previously had no techs. So, yeah just need to decide what to do with this.

I can have it set up so that Players can trade Build Techs to Natives and the Natives will start to build things. I am thinking Minor Civ Workers would need their own set of rules for what to Build, like they probably wouldn't go Clearing all the Forests around their villages. Anyway, fun stuff ahead.

 

[Kailric]

I moved these thoughts here to keep them consolidated. orlanth asked the question what's the difference between Minor Civs, Nations States, and Natives in M:C...

What's the difference between these atm?
I wonder what I should plan to do for the aliens in 2071. Ideally I'd want them to behave pretty much like normal "colonial" player civs, except that most of the "natives" effects can still apply to them (for example the native border system, not popping Goody Huts, gift giving, the anti-native combat bonus, etc).

Maybe if each of the vanilla features of "natives" (borderless, no goodyhuts, etc, etc) were each controllable independently by a civicinfos tag, this would be total moddability to the max, playa! You could even let primitive tribes start out with all native-like characteristics, and then gradually discover new Civics/Techs to advance to become more full features civs.

I THINK the current difference is:

Nation State: Popey Rome, starts advanced and with multiple developed towns. Being planned for use with other major powers like Byzantium.

Minor Nation: These are 'natives' that have many of the same abilities as normal civs, they have either developed to this point through techs, etc. or started like that. (I don't know how far Kail has implemented it at this point)

Kai can't remember all that was done either. Minor Civs still have the isNative Trait, but in some instances this is over written to make them more Civ like. I would have to go back and look at the code for specifics. I should actually document the differences. (Perhaps I did in the Minor Civs thread, duh)



This is a good idea. Natives and Minor Civs both don't respect territory but perhaps this could change as you say at some point, perhaps with treaties. We can introduce a new difficulty where you can play as a Minor Civ or a lesser Native type. Then you really work to raise your status. The AI can be doing this as well and you may at some point hear a trumpet blast declaring, "Arpad has become a new Rival!", then his borders appear on the map and THEN he starts beating you with his pimp cane.

Yeah, suppose there were Techs or Civics like Coinage, Feudal Code, Nationalism, Expansionism etc and having these can individually unlock the "non-native" features of full civs (stop spontaneous Giftgiving, enforce formal borders, become able to explore and loot Goodyhuts, become able to attract Emigrants, will no longer become Vassals, etc).

The advanced or "Colonial" civs could start out with these, while the native or less advanced civs start out with Techs that give some yield bonus to production from local terrain. You would have a choice to trade with them for mutual benefit and grant them knowledge enabling them to advance, but have to consider the potential drawbacks that they are gradually becoming more mature civs and more able to present a challenge to you with each new feature that they unlock!

This is something I want to focus on in the next expansion, adding new options for all Civ types and adding new Diplomacy options. Some of the isNative effects could effect all rival Players at the start, such as having no established borders. There could be a civic you start with that prevents borders and you have advance your civics to gain borders. Thus Anarchy would make you drop your borders, allowing anyone in, unless you keep them out manually

The starting Civics could all have a negative effect so that you will want to advance beyond them as soon as possible.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

ooooh meany!

 

[orlanth]

Yes, would be cool if there is a CivEffects.xml tag which can turn on/off the ability to loot Goodyhuts (and whether the civ gets upset by goodyhut exploration by others).

Primitive Civs could start out with an early Religious Civic or Tech like Animism or Shamanism which makes them have this behavior. You could also use existing XML tags so that this Tech or Civic unlocks Build Improvement for some of the Goodyhut types, and gives them a slight yield production bonus on tiles with some of the Goodyhut improvements. Thus they will occasionally build primitive Goodyhut sites if left undisturbed, and will want to protect them for their benefits and be enraged if others loot them . Some of the old 2071 alien improvements are like this but I did not have the ability to turn on/off goodyhut looting separately from <bisNative>.

If their society does advance they can move on to later Civics or Techs (maybe Iconoclasm) which obsolete building Goodyhuts and allow them to explore/loot old ancient sites. They can gradually unlock building the modern improvements instead like Farms and Mines etc.

 

[Kailric]

I just encountered another reason to want to control Borders. I've had a Minor Civ city (the Avars) a few Miles from a Vassal of mine that I have enjoyed trading with. Now the Turk's borders have expanded nearly covering the whole Avarian city, so I fear they will soon give into the Turks, so was thinking it would be cool if we had a way to prevent this or at least make it more difficult to take land from Minor Civs.

I guess there could be several approaches, where the Minor Civ could gain Techs, and build Improvements to help maintain his City's Borders. Perhaps we could send Diplomat Profession Units there that would help do this as well, perhaps boosting relations with the Avars and hurting relations with the Turks in this instance. Turks, "Hey, we don't like you interfering with our territorial affairs!"