Missing Major Religion

arcady said:
The religion is still alive, but its members are not allowed to accept in converts, and as such is slowly dying off.

That also, is a good reason to not include it - it is against the faith to spread it, and the religions in Civ IV are all missionary. Even Judiasm accepts converts.


LOL, have you even read my post, my dear? Which point about rewriting history didn't you understand?

Your post has two major faults:
1) Who says Judaism accepts Converts? :rolleyes: Jews are the chosen ones! They are the chosen people by their God Jahweh! No one can become a Jew! You are born as a Jew! There is no such a thing as Conversion in Judaism!

2) Who says that Zoroastrians do not Convert and are dying out? It is the Parsees community who do not accept Converts and this has historical reasons. After the Muslim Conquest of Persia higher taxes were forced to the Zoroastrians. They were under tough pressure and were regarded as second class citizens. After few hundered years of poverty and pressure some of them have decided not staying longer in the motherland and have sought asylum in India. The King of India accepted their asylum but they had to give up all their weapons, their woman had to wear from then Indian Sari cloth instead of Persian cloth, their wedding had to be only in the evening. The Parsees also forbade to marry Indians from outside in order to keep their community alive. Since no conversion was allowed, they were no danger to grow and become a problem for the Hindus.

In 19th century however scholars have proved that Zarathustra's own words are only included in the Gathas (including 17 hymns), which is written in an archaic dialect extremly close to Vedic Indian that was 3700 years ago. Every thing else in Avesta, the Zoroastrian holy book, was written in a much later dialect.

Therefore a new wave of reformist came up and argued that the later written text in Avesta are mostly intepretations by the later priests especially from the period of the Sassnid dynasty. Reformists say, like the Christian Evangelists argue against Catholics, that there is the need to go back to the roots of the religion, to the words of Zarathustra himself rather than the tradition that built up during thousands of years after him.

The reformist Parsees therefore marry outside their community and they accept converts, because Zarathustra himself has never limited his speech to only Iranians. The remaining Zoroastrians in Iran are mostly reformists as well and DO accept conversion. There is also a small movement within USA/Canada/Brazil/Venezuella where Zoroastian Universities and Firetemples are built. Check out the yahoogroup [zoroastrianacceptance] for more information. Your argument is therefore totally wrong!

For more information about the reformists and traditionalists, refer to the books I had recommended in first post.

Kind Regards,
Houman
 
I have no idea what your talking about...Judaism does allow converts.

We have whole passages that detail what the convert has to do, and even treatment of new converts.

While Judaism does not missionize, it does accept converts, and they are treated as 100% Jews.
 
I know, I know - Zarathustranism was big in Persia once, but today only the Parsians in India practice it.

Looking very much forward to see it in a mod (Old Persia :))
 
i would like to have about 1000 religions and mr random decides, which religion is founded... and if i found a religion i wanna name it myself!
atheism maybe... :cool:
 
Xineoph said:
I have no idea what your talking about...Judaism does allow converts.

We have whole passages that detail what the convert has to do, and even treatment of new converts.

While Judaism does not missionize, it does accept converts, and they are treated as 100% Jews.
IIRC correctly orthodox jews do not accept converts, but reform jews do allow converts.

I do not think that Zoroastrianism needs to be included. It was an influential religion, but now it is small. All the religions included are large religions. That said if they do add another religion it should be Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, or a Native American religion.
 
@Abgar- Orthodox does allow converts...you just have to go through a long process, before you are proclaimed a Jew. I've met a few converts, and we learnt about in my Jewish Studies Course...so yes we do accept converts. Although they must want to convert with a sincere heart.
 
Abgar said:
IIRC correctly orthodox jews do not accept converts, but reform jews do allow converts.

I do not think that Zoroastrianism needs to be included. It was an influential religion, but now it is small. All the religions included are large religions. That said if they do add another religion it should be Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, or a Native American religion.

Judaism is not a large religion. It is just well known.
 
Firaxis was wise!

Just imagine what such discussions would look like, if they had started to give bonuses for certain religions.

Carn
 
@Xineoph

My father is a businessman in Cotton-factory-industry. Some of his business partners and friends at the same time are Jewish. I remember going as a child to some Jewish events. I practically grew up with them and must say that I am totally surprised hearing that Judaism accept Converts. I bet even they would be surprised to hear about that. Just out of curiosity; do you have any sources about this argument and when did this reformist movement started? Do you know any scientific books about this?

@
Abgar said:
I do not think that Zoroastrianism needs to be included. It was an influential religion, but now it is small. All the religions included are large religions. That said if they do add another religion it should be Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, or a Native American religion.

Again...this is not about the size of the todays followers. The number of Jews nowaday are a drop of water compared to Muslims or Christians. Shall we exclude them therefore???

No, it is about the influence of a certain idea in the history of mankind that shaped other ideas. Like so many different ideas that have built upon each other and started a chain-effect until today. Read my 2 prior posts about this topic again. e.g. Shall we exclude the Romans because there is no Roman left anymore?

Neither Sekhism nor any Native American religion had any influence on global mankinds history. Open to debate of course if you show me scientific sources.
While Zoroastrism existed in small numbers even in China (until ~1400), Hong Kong and nowadays Singapore even until 1950.

But for the flavour of differences; a Native American religion like the religion of Incas or Aztecs should also be included - human sacrifice to Gods - why not!

Kind Regards
Houman
 
carn said:
Firaxis was wise!

Just imagine what such discussions would look like, if they had started to give bonuses for certain religions.

Carn

Completely out of touch with reality? Oh I'm not talking about separate religions giving separate bonuses, I'm talking about religion giving any bonuses at all. That is the most whacked thing of all.

If you can find any instance in history where religion has been beneficial to humanity, please share it with me. Hell I might even convert.
 
carn said:
Firaxis was wise!

Just imagine what such discussions would look like, if they had started to give bonuses for certain religions.

Carn

Oh yes, very very wise.... just look at what this thread has become...
But I like to think of it this way... the religions don't need bonuses, what matters is what you DO with the religion. It's up to you to spread it, and it up to yo to pick the religious civic. I think the system works prefectly as is.

And to add in my 2 cents without trying to incite anymore flames. Firaxis didn't pick Zoroastrianism because is it not a major world religion today, although they did give it credit by making Zoroaster a great prophet. So here's a plan for all you Zoroastrianism fans out there. Use Zoroaster to found Monotheism!! That should solve everything, as long as you remember that in cIV Judaism is just a name...

Now settle down people
 
Jimbo30 said:
Completely out of touch with reality? Oh I'm not talking about separate religions giving separate bonuses, I'm talking about religion giving any bonuses at all. That is the most whacked thing of all.

While i am also skeptic, that religion is in itself benificial to humankind, giving bonuses for religions in civ4 is still not wrong, because those bonuses are given over paganism, so some sort of believe where every tree is possesed by a different spirit and a lot of independent religious "leaders" exist.
This can create a lot of trouble in large cities, every time you want to hack down a tree to construct something, you have to ask a hundred shamans, whether this will invoke the wrath of some spirit they believe in or risk that a few of them convince their small group of followers to protest violently.
Every big religion present gets roughly 14% followers, therefore you've got to ask 14% less ot those hundreds of shamans plus one guy from the major religion to hack down a tree. That saves costs represented by the one gold you get from the religion shrine. In case you do not have the religion shrine, the saved cost is lost again, since you're stupid citizens pilgrim to some foreign country and therefore pay less taxes in yours.

Of course a educated atheism could be even better, but so far no human society managed that. The lack of belief in major religions in europe has little to do with atheism and even less to do with education(they believe other nonsense instead).

And as a fact it is known, that telling someone, he has to kill those guys on the other side of the river, to please some gods gives better recruting statistics than offering money or give some rational reasons, therefore at least theocracy is plausible and it also has a science disadvantage due to higher upkeep cost, so not unrealistic.

And i personally think, that it makes things a lot easier for any government, if their people do not believe any nonsense, that is on the market, but instead believe into one or a few big uniform religions, where the government knows the high priest or whatever(and knows where they live, store their money, etc.) and can "ask" them for a meeting, if some religious dogma interferes with government policy.:D

Jimbo30 said:
If you can find any instance in history where religion has been beneficial to humanity, please share it with me. Hell I might even convert.

In civ4 bonuses of religion only go to civilizations, not to entire humanity, and, like in history until very recently the choice for rulers is only which religion(s) they try to establish in their countries. Therefore i think it is just enough if you remeber a few instances, where certain religions had advantages over others.

I will just give hints to keep the flame war down:
-some polytheistic religions have little problems to accept a few more gods or just different names, therefore polytheistic societies were more easy to absorp into a polytheistic empire or it caused less religious wars, if some ruler decided, he is a god himself.
-often thinking to have a superior religion allowed to bypass any morale, which allowed to gain a lot of wealth, south american ruins can tell a story of that.
-there is a religion, whose founder did things and whose holy books has text pieces, that can be easily interpreted to mean, that fighting wars against disbelievers is a holy duty, that has to be pursued. That religion expanded very quickly during its first 2 centuries, so one could imagine, that this religion gave advantages in warfare at least in that age.
-The biggest change(not saying that it was good or bad) in human live since the invention of fire, hammer-concept, animal husbandry and agriculture was modern science. AFAIK modern science could have developed a lot earlier in a different area, as it mainly requires the idea, that some things are still to be understood and that setting up an experiment and note the results is the way to proceed, in case conflicting hypothesises exist. But it developed only in societies with a certain religion and for a long time it only prevailed in countries with that religion, so one could say that that religion gives less malus on sciences research than others or alternatively a bonus.

So you see from history one could attribute certein advantages or disadvantages to certain religions.

Carn
 
Xineoph said:

Well it says actually:

Since around 300 CE, Judaism no longer encourages people to convert. In fact, in Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, converts are often discouraged from becoming Jews and warned that being a Jew entails special obligations, as well as, at least in certain places, the risk of anti-semitism. A Rabbinic tradition holds that a prospective convert should be refused three times.


According to this text, the Conversion has been halted since 1700 years. So there is no Conversion at all anymore. Only if you really are interested on your own, you could propose to become a Jew.

And with all respect to wikipedia, I still doubt that it is possible at all. This is an open source site where everyone can write down something. Do you have any other source for me?

P.S. Why are some other members so afraid of discussions? We are not flaming or swearing here. We are having a mature discussion that is quite interesting as well. So I really don't get these "Please calm down" threads thereafter.

Kind Regards
Houman
 
I have certainly heard of people converting to Judaism, through marriage or their personal beliefs. Im surprised that there are some who thinks that it is not possible, my personal curiosity pique, I googled and found several reputable sites advising on how such a procedure is conducted.

Belief.net
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/judaism/judaism.html
http://www.convert.org/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/features/conversion/index.shtml
The top 5 hits on converting to judaism. Quite a number of Jews in America presently are actually converts about 200,000.
 
Shaihulud said:
I have certainly heard of people converting to Judaism, through marriage or their personal beliefs. Im surprised that there are some who thinks that it is not possible, my personal curiosity pique, I googled and found several reputable sites advising on how such a procedure is conducted.

Belief.net
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/judaism/judaism.html
http://www.convert.org/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/features/conversion/index.shtml
The top 5 hits on converting to judaism. Quite a number of Jews in America presently are actually converts about 200,000.

It is very possible. In fact, the strange thing about converting to Judaism is that after you do, Jews consider you to be ethnically Jewish.
 
Houman said:
Well it says actually:

Since around 300 CE, Judaism no longer encourages people to convert. In fact, in Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, converts are often discouraged from becoming Jews and warned that being a Jew entails special obligations, as well as, at least in certain places, the risk of anti-semitism. A Rabbinic tradition holds that a prospective convert should be refused three times.


According to this text, the Conversion has been halted since 1700 years. So there is no Conversion at all anymore. Only if you really are interested on your own, you could propose to become a Jew.

And with all respect to wikipedia, I still doubt that it is possible at all. This is an open source site where everyone can write down something. Do you have any other source for me?

P.S. Why are some other members so afraid of discussions? We are not flaming or swearing here. We are having a mature discussion that is quite interesting as well. So I really don't get these "Please calm down" threads thereafter.

Kind Regards
Houman


I have a relative, who converted to judaism and now lives among rather conservative jews and is as far as its possible for a women accepted among them.

So yes conversion is possible, but they do not encourage conversion, they will not ring at your door like jehovas witnesses.


Carn
 
Houman said:
Well it says actually:

Since around 300 CE, Judaism no longer encourages people to convert. In fact, in Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, converts are often discouraged from becoming Jews and warned that being a Jew entails special obligations, as well as, at least in certain places, the risk of anti-semitism. A Rabbinic tradition holds that a prospective convert should be refused three times.


According to this text, the Conversion has been halted since 1700 years. So there is no Conversion at all anymore. Only if you really are interested on your own, you could propose to become a Jew.

And with all respect to wikipedia, I still doubt that it is possible at all. This is an open source site where everyone can write down something. Do you have any other source for me?

P.S. Why are some other members so afraid of discussions? We are not flaming or swearing here. We are having a mature discussion that is quite interesting as well. So I really don't get these "Please calm down" threads thereafter.

Kind Regards
Houman

Houman, here's a website that explains how to convert to Judaism:

http://www.convertingtojudaism.com/

Since it's written by a Rabbi, I figure it ought to explain it well enough. If this isn't enough, I've got about a dozen more like it on tap, but don't want to spam you. I'm a convert myself, and I want to assure you that it's rigorous, but does occur. (I was born a Lithuanian in a Catholic family.)

Tom
 
Hi,

I think the Zoroastrianism religion should be added.They are now 200000 people in world belive this religion.And 35% of Iranian people belive Zoroastrianism+Islam.
Islam in Iran(persia) is different from other muslim people and this difference come from Zoroastrianism.
Most of Arab muslim are terrorist.But most of Iranian(persian) people are not terrorist.

Thankss
 
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