Missing Major Religion

I think its more of an outrage that the game lacks Pastafarianism...

Any religion not recognized by Microsoft Word can't be a big deal. :lol:

Anyway, it would be funny if that religion that was created in 2005 by some guy would be in the game, but why, when there are so many "real" religions out there?
 
Danish

i have heard several better funny-bunnies than you, little junkie dork :)

the debate is not about including extravaganza-noboyknows religions.

it is about an ancient, once-mighty religion, which shaped judaism, affected chritianity, and had a slight influence on islam too.
 
The discussions earlier in the thread about letting the CIV name the religion, or just have the religion named as the CIV, ie Egyptian, Indian, etc. could definitely work. If we consider that if a CIV is able to found a second religion, then instead of founding a second religion their already founded one gets an additional bonus...
* +1 more happiness from Temples
* +1 more gold for every 2 Cities w/ your Religion, w/ the Religious Wonder/Capitol.
* +1 culture from Monastary
* +1 Gold|Hammers from Priest specialists
etc.
 
When did you last read your Bible? Thou shalt not have any other gods except me is from the Ten Commandments, given by Moses, thus establishing monotheistic Judaism.

You're misreading the passage. It's not "except", it's "before".

The literal translation into modern English would be "You will not have any gods ABOVE the Lord Your God."

After all, when Moses came down from the mountain he didn't break the tablets because the Israelites were acknowledging Baal, he broke them because of the Golden Calf and other graven images.

Ancient Judaism was very much a polytheistic (in the literal sense) religion. It acknowledged the gods of Egypt as gods, only lesser gods because the Lord was the first and supreme deity. Over the course of the millenia, Judaism and Christianity have been deemed "monotheistic" religions, which in the case of Christianity is moderately hilarious: the basic tenets of Christianity are either a dualism (Father and Son) or tritheistic (Father, Son, Holy Ghost), or (to be fair) for Catholicism multi-theistic (Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Saints and Angels- which are pseudo-deities capable of intercession)!
 
Hi,

I think the Zoroastrianism religion should be added.They are now 200000 people in world belive this religion.And 35% of Iranian people belive Zoroastrianism+Islam.
Islam in Iran(persia) is different from other muslim people and this difference come from Zoroastrianism.
Most of Arab muslim are terrorist.But most of Iranian(persian) people are not terrorist.

Thankss

Islam in Iran is different from other nations because of a spilt in Islam after the Prophet died. Persia went with the Shi'a side and other Muslim countries went with the Sunni side. This is why Shi'a and Sunni Muslims are fighting in Iraq.
 
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the satan of Judaism was the same one of Christianity, that is, a fallen angel, not just someone who tempts and gathers sinners in Hell, but someone who has defied God and been cast to Hell for this, a sinner himself.
This vision is clearly seen in passages like Jobe, where Satan sort of challenges God to prove Jobe's worthiness.
Unless, Xineoph, you are talking about Kabbalah, which has less of a antropomorphisized (phew!) vision of Satan. But is that the mainstream vision for most Jews?

No, no, no, no.
Satan is an unfallen angel in Judaism. He picks a fight with God over Job because he's a real jerk, and probably because he's jealous of the attention God shows Job, not because he's made war on Heaven and been cast into Hell as in Christianity. He's like an extremely aggressive and merciless prosecutor who assumes everyone is guilty, not a mob boss who is guilty himself.

And are there any mods that include Pastafarianism?
 
You're misreading the passage. It's not "except", it's "before".

The literal translation into modern English would be "You will not have any gods ABOVE the Lord Your God."

After all, when Moses came down from the mountain he didn't break the tablets because the Israelites were acknowledging Baal, he broke them because of the Golden Calf and other graven images.

Ancient Judaism was very much a polytheistic (in the literal sense) religion. It acknowledged the gods of Egypt as gods, only lesser gods because the Lord was the first and supreme deity.

I believe that is what current archeology is suggesting. Ashara was worshiped by at least some Ancient Israelites as God's consort. When Judaism turned to strict monotheism the priests suppressed Ashara worship but it continued as "folk religion" outside Jerusalem.
 
I think its more of an outrage that the game lacks Pastafarianism...

What a stupid idea for a religion! How can you smoke a noodle? It would just flop over even if you could get it lit.

Anyhoo, an amusing discussion thus far, even if it was Lazerused. I'm kind of surprised that there was only one Taoist posting, I though we'd have them up the Yin-Yang.

I agree with K.F. Huszár that there should be more elements of religious decline and conversion. As it stands getting a religion in the game is like getting herpies. It never changes, and you can never get rid of it.
 
What a stupid idea for a religion! How can you smoke a noodle? It would just flop over even if you could get it lit.

Anyhoo, an amusing discussion thus far, even if it was Lazerused. I'm kind of surprised that there was only one Taoist posting, I though we'd have them up the Yin-Yang.

I agree with K.F. Huszár that there should be more elements of religious decline and conversion. As it stands getting a religion in the game is like getting herpies. It never changes, and you can never get rid of it.

They picked 7 because its the best number of religions for balancing issues. You can still have 7 religion in each game, and have more than 7 religions to choose from. Either the player picks which 7 religions he wants in each game he plays in the settings before the start of the game, or its randomly chosen.

This way, even Pastfranism has a chance. :lol:
 
What if you needed a Great Prophet to found a religion along with any religious tech. Each prophet could have a specific religion to found. Early religious techs (Meditation, Polytheism, and Monotheism) could give free prophets too because they are rare that early in the game. Of course only one religion can be founded per tech, keeping the limit at 7.

Ex: Zorasterism with Zoraster, Judeism with Moses, Confucianism with Confucious, etc.

Might need to add/remove some prophets though.
 
They picked 7 because its the best number of religions for balancing issues. You can still have 7 religion in each game, and have more than 7 religions to choose from. Either the player picks which 7 religions he wants in each game he plays in the settings before the start of the game, or its randomly chosen.

The reason they picked 7 religions was to honor the 7 days that it took God to create the Earth. It's religious symbolism.
 
Yeah, they mentioned numerous times that they chose 7 religions because they determined 7 was the optimal number for gameplay purposes.

In any case, Civ IV is only a game, it's not supposed to be an exact model of reality. Besides that, only a handful of people have actually heard of said religion. We'd be better off adding the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. [Btw, adding in FSM would make a killer mod].
 
Ancient Judaism was very much a polytheistic (in the literal sense) religion. It acknowledged the gods of Egypt as gods, only lesser gods because the Lord was the first and supreme deity. Over the course of the millenia, Judaism and Christianity have been deemed "monotheistic" religions, which in the case of Christianity is moderately hilarious: the basic tenets of Christianity are either a dualism (Father and Son) or tritheistic (Father, Son, Holy Ghost), or (to be fair) for Catholicism multi-theistic (Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Saints and Angels- which are pseudo-deities capable of intercession)!

I don't want to drive this thread off-topic, but the Nicene Creed specifically states the Caholic stance on homoousious, or of the same substance. In a nutshell, explaining this is the Holy Trinity is three beings, of the same substance, worshipped and perform the same functions. It is not Polytheistic because God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same. The angels (including saints) can be prayed to in order for them to relay your message to God. They do not perform any specific functions that would make them "pseudo-deities" other than relaying. What I'm trying to say is there is no benefit to praying to a saint or good family member over God, for instance, other than it might bring you more comfort seeing as you share a more "personal" relation with them. (I don't want to argue with you and dilute this thread, so if you do reply to this I'll probably PM reply you. Sorry guys.)

As for Zoroastrianism, one possible reason why it is not included in the game is the simple fact that it has not stood the test of time. As one Jewish High Priest said, leave the religion and if it is of human origin it will destroy itself. Granted, that's not a direct quote but you get the idea. For instance, let's give a numerical breakdown of each religion included in-game, compared to Zoroastrianism.
Zoroastrianism: 200,000 worldwide, concentrated in India and Iran
Buddhism: 350 million adherents worldwide, originated in India and spread worldwide
Christianity: 1.5-2.1 billion adherents worldwide, originated in Fertile Crescent and spread
Judaism: 13.2 million people, around half in Israel, half in exile, or Diaspora.
Confucianism: hard to find numbers, not many practice it today as a religion in China because of cultural revolutions started by the government, however it is very popular as a philosophical system.
Hinduism: the oldest major world religion, there are still 793 million worldwide
Islam: 1-1.8 billion adherents worldwide, spread
Taoism: it is very difficult to give exact numbers of believers, however there are 1,600 Taoist temples in China, with 26,000 priests and nuns within them.

Zarathustranism is the first and oldest Monotheistic religion in the world, which influenced later Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Even Zoroastrianism achieved, to some degree, that same sense of syncretism that you are saying makes it so important. As the religion developed, it incorporated several Jewish, Muslim, and Christian beliefs, such as that evil was created by God as good and turned against him. Granted, this is a relatively modern advancement aided by Protestants, but it shows that the influence was not all too great and the Abrahamic religions did not derive directly from it. Rather, like in Civilization IV, Judaism first developed with Abraham, who led his people away from the polytheistic paganism surrounding them. Abraham was a polytheist, not a Zoroastrian.
 
Yeah, they mentioned numerous times that they chose 7 religions because they determined 7 was the optimal number for gameplay purposes.

In any case, Civ IV is only a game, it's not supposed to be an exact model of reality. Besides that, only a handful of people have actually heard of said religion. We'd be better off adding the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. [Btw, adding in FSM would make a killer mod].

I think that "Free Religion" is code for Pastafarianism.
 
Christianity: 1.5-2.1 billion adherents worldwide, originated in Fertile Crescent and spread
Good points, but that's wrong. Christianity emerged from a Jewish rabbi and mystic, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ, who founded a creed which was exportable to Europe and universalist in nature rather than Judaism, which although it appears to be linked solely to blood rather than a missionary faith, accepts converts (my Russian-Jewish boyfriend says that it is a misconception that Judaism is solely passed on as an ethnic/cultural dogma/set of rules rather than being an actual religion with spiritual and mystical sects of its own - e.g. the hasidim of Eastern Europe).
Don't be tempted to beat about the bush for political reasons. Christianity split from Judaism with St Paul, and even he found it difficult to proselytise outside Jewish synagogues in Greece, Rome and Asia Minor. It is largely because Christ's message is universalist in nature rather than culturally limited (like Judaism and, in my opinion, Islam) that it has spread further than anything else.
You make a good summary of how religions rise and fall, just don't deny that Christianity has its roots in Judaism and was a Jewish sect until Paul began to realise that Gentiles also should know the Good News. Once Europe was Christianised, they took it elsewhere by means of trade and conquest, a good model for which is provided in Civ's handling of religion.
It may be more difficult for me to justify Taoism and Confucianism in the game as religions (I'd prefer to see Shinto in there with Mysticism) but they are both representative of Chinese/Far Eastern spirituality so on balance they should stay.

@BakingTheArt - Rastafarianism, while a genuine spiritual cult, is a sect of Christianity and worships a mortal man, Haile Selassie, as the Messiah, so it is not a serious contender for the role of world religion. From Wiki: "Some Rastafari choose to classify their movement as Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity, Protestant Christianity, or Judaism. ...Some also revere the Kebra Negast, but many of these Rastas would classify themselves as Ethiopian Orthodox in religion and Rastafari in ideology. Some Rastafari pay little attention to the Kebra Negast, and most consider it as having nowhere near the sanctity of the Bible." At the most significant it is a political movement connected with black power/afrocentrism and while I'm not against anything like this I don't think it can be elevated to the status of a religion. There are a lot of "guesses" as to who is the Second Coming or the Messiah promised by the book of Daniel at the End Times, but it's probably safe to say it wasn't Haile Selassie.

Sects would be an interesting addition to the game but would probably need to be well thought out before being implemented. Perhaps via a BtS-style random event if you control a holy city?
 
Yeah, they mentioned numerous times that they chose 7 religions because they determined 7 was the optimal number for gameplay purposes. We'd be better off adding the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. [Btw, adding in FSM would make a killer mod].

Um, that was kind of mean. Further more, no matter how few actual worshipers of Zoatranism there is, there are far few of that thing. This religion has had a big influence on the Abrahamic Religions. I've never heard of Douism or Toaism either, yet those are in there.

What I suggest, is have, for example, this: When you are the first to found monotheism, you found either Judaism or Zoastranism. You get to choose. The one you won't choose, won't be in that game. This way, there will still only be 7 religions per game, yet you have more choices at the same time. Rather than bashing a religion saying its "no more important than the spaghetti monster" (espically since I bet you know almost NOTHING about the religion) give it a chance, and learn about it.
 
my Russian-Jewish boyfriend says that it is a misconception that Judaism is solely passed on as an ethnic/cultural dogma/set of rules rather than being an actual religion with spiritual and mystical sects of its own - e.g. the hasidim of Eastern Europe).

The first recorded convert to Judaism was Ruth, heroine of the Book of Ruth.



Um, that was kind of mean. Further more, no matter how few actual worshipers of Zoatranism there is, there are far few of that thing. This religion has had a big influence on the Abrahamic Religions. I've never heard of Douism or Toaism either, yet those are in there.

Taoism is hugely significant (and is the same thing as Daoism). And Judaism is more recognizable, more influential, and apparently more resilient than Zoroastrianism. It's also closer to purely monotheistic, Zoroastrianism is actually dualistic.
 
Taoism is hugely significant (and is the same thing as Daoism). And Judaism is more recognizable

Dunno ... Taoism has about twice as many followers as Judaism (25 million to 13 million), and I'd guess that Judaism being "more recognizable" is largely a Western thing. I think Taoism is probably more familiar than Judaism in the Far East (eg, one-third of Taiwan is Taoist).

I'd say they're very similar, actually.
 
Back
Top Bottom