MLDR003 - NOW in the big D

Meldor and Belisar, on the fortify-all question, I don't know anything absolutely definite either. I can only say that:

1. I've always had the impression that my units just put into the fortified stance do well when attacked in the next interturn, suggesting that they really are fortified.

2. It seems oversubtle to assume that units which look fortified aren't fortified--unless there's some reason for thinking this which I don't know about?
 
Turn 0 -- 1000 BC
The question on everyone's mind: Will we get the GL?!? Will we actually attempt offensive action?!?

Florida 6, Cubs 4, bottom 6th ... c'mon Cubbies

Take a look at our neighbors ... Rome has like a jillion cities, but neither Horse nor Iron! :mwaha:
Similar with the Indians, but they don't have Iron

Compared to everybody, our military is weak...

Edrine changed to Temple, as requested.


Woo-hoo, HR! 6-6 in the 6th!

Turn 1 -- 975 BC
Bursa Sword > Horse
Rome completes Great Lighthouse
Bursa sword moves on intercept course ...
Uskudar is built, order up Temple (vetoable)

Turn 2 -- 950 BC
Quiet ... too quiet

IT: 1 bowman dies attacking Edrine.
Both Settler/Spear pairs turn back. I'm not sure if any are reachable, but I may give chase.

Turn 3 -- 925 BC
Istanbul Sword > Horse
No lit yet

IT: India (INDIA!) demands 48 gold and Territory Map. I can't risk it, so I pay up.

Turn 4 -- 900 BC
Death to Bab Spearmen! One approaching Istanbul is cut down by a sword with no loss, and a settler-spear pair is now one spear short of a pair! Two more slaves...

Turn 5 -- 875 BC
Elite horse takes out Bowman, suffers a little damage.
Sword assaults Eridu, redlines Spear but dies :( Probably :smoke: on part

Turn 6 -- 850 BC
Istanbul Horse > Sword
Bursa Horse > Sword

Sword takes out Bowman, but is now in position to be assaulted by a sword next turn
Horse kills Bowman

IT:
Barbarians attack Iznik and we sneeze at them
Sword survives, is now elite!

Turn 7 -- 825 BC
Bab Bowman gets lucky and defeats one of our swords :grr:
Sword kills Sword
Elite Warrior dies trying to kill same Bowman! I light a few candles and :worship: RNG :worship:
Horse kills sword

Still no Lit

Turn 8 -- 800 BC
Horse fights red-lined Bow, kills it but not before being red-lined itself! And there's a sword nearby! :cry:

IT: Horse dies :(

Turn 9 -- 775 BC
Istanbul Sword > Horse
Iznik Rax > Spear

IT: DAMMIT. Sword and Spear both killed (killing one sword in the process), despite attack being across river. :worship: RNG :worship:

Turn 10 -- 750 BC
No attacks of opportunity...the one negative about Edrine is that we can't actively attack the troops outside it because they get the mountain defensive bonus.

Still no literature!

Tally for turn:
We lost 1 horse, 3 swords, 1 warrior and 1 spear
We killed 2 spears, 1 settler (netting 2 workers), 4 bows, 2 swords ... *sigh* ...sorry guys, guess I still have a lot to learn about warfare ancien.

Babylonians are still able to field a good number of troops

Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MLDR3_750BC.SAV
 
OK, you stayed on the postitive side of the attrition, thats were we need to be. Not haveing looked at the save, it sounds like we have some offensive units built up. Maybe we should try to consolidate them and go after our first Bab city, Eridu.

The hit list:
1) Babylon
2) India
3) Rome

NorthernPike
CtrTh
Belisar (up)
Coffee (on deck)
Arizona_Steve
Meldor
 
Ok, I got it.

I had a quick look at the save and think consolidation is the right way to go, the babs have a lot of units in the Edrine-region.
Will see what I can do.
 
Preturn: We have only 2 swords and 2 horses for offensive actions, no cats.
Updated the last two warriors, costly but necessary.
Vetoed the temple in Edrine, sorry.
I will also build settlers in Busra and try to expand our empire.


IT: We now have 8 Bab units (swords, bowmen and (silly AI): spears) in the Edrine area,
but they seem to head north. Also there are two bowmen occupying the mountains east of Istanbul.
Additionally, a Bab galley near Uskudar, maybe landing a settler pair in our back
or landing troops.

730BC: Mine iron at Busra, protect the slaves with swords.
Move an elite spear on a mountain tile near Edrine to block the advancing swords.

IT: some Bab-movement near Edrine.

710BC: I move a sword on the mountain near Eridu.

IT: OK, the Babs definitely landed a settler pair north of Uskudar, at least not 2 swords.
Their units near Edrine move in strange ways, as if they were patrolling in the
mountains and hill tiles.


690BC: I kill a spear at Eridu and one near Edrine.

IT: The next settler pair enters our territory west of Edrine.
A bowman impales itself on the mountain-sword near Eridu and our sword gets elite.
A stack of 3 swords, a single spear and a bowman/sword pair advances on Istanbul,
all of them two tiles away, except the spear which stops near the city.
And guess what: a third settler pair shows up SW of Edrine.

670BC: Kill a spear near Istanbul with a horse.
No Literature, I'm getting a bit (only a little bit...) nervous.

The stack of 3 swords moves finally on open ground, our horse tile at Istanbul,
patience gets honored.
One of the two settler pairs between Edrine and Busra is finally in range too.

650BC: I kill the sword stack, two of our horses retreat, but no casualties so far. :D
I capture the settler by killing the spear with a sword, 2 more slaves.
Thanks to the Babs our worker force exists at least.

The stupid Romans have researched Currency instead of Lit. :(

630BC: I capture/kill the second settler/spear pair between Busra and Edrine.

IT: A horse on the mountain near Eridu is attacked by a Bowman, it retreats north.

610BC: The attack on Eridu: a horse redlined, our elite archer dead (Meldor's brave guy,
our first casualty), but we finally autoraze the city which was defended by 2 spears
and capture a worker.
Send injured horse back to Iznik. I love ancient warfare, it is like chess,
you see most of the pieces and can guess were they will move. :D

Our first Bab-city:
mld3-3.jpg



IT: A bowman impales itself on our sword near former Eridu on a mountain.
Another moves on the horse tile near Istanbul.

590BC: Finally, the Romans and Gandhi both have Literature, we buy it for 170,
the low costs imply that the Babs must have got it too or they were the one
researching it.
I found out we still have this lazy Great Leader, must build a horsemen army....
OK, just kidding. I rush the GL in Edrine, wasting 8 shields, but I don't think
I should have waited until that cat was finished...... :D

IT: A Bab sword commits suicide on the same mountain-sword as the bowman last turn.
3 of their bowmen and 2 swords turn their attention towards Edrine, two spears advance
on their 'settler route' SE of Busra.
Good news, here is a pic:

mld3-1.jpg



570BC: We autoraze the annoying Bab city of Shurrupak at the Silk-site in our backyard.
It costs us a horse to its single spear-defender, but it was likely worth it.
I replace former Eridu with Izmit, was not sure about the exact site but the hill is
near their boarders and the grassland in the north is not better at all.

IT: An eventful IT. The Babs attack Edrine with a sword and 2 bows.
Our sword defeats them and gets elite.
We get "a few" techs and enter the Middle Ages. Our free tech is Engineering,
both Romans and Indians lack it, it's good to be scientific I must admit to Steve. :D

mld3-2.jpg
 
And now:

Some embs:
mld3-4.jpg


and the result:

mld3-5.jpg

mld3-6.jpg


looks nice:
mld3-7.jpg
 
But the story isn't finished yet:

The Romans and Indians are now building the Great Wall.
The next settler pair shows up south of Edrine, must be the 4th, if I have counted correctly.
Currently 4 swords, 2 bowmen at Edrine.

550BC: I send an additional vet sword from Istanbul to be prepared at Edrine.
Engineering gets us a few gpt, some cash and most important: two alliances
against the Babs (let the games begin) and last but not least a WM,
also both the Romans and the Indians are gracious to us now.

IT: Next attack on Edrine:
First I thought I get to pay for some of our good luck so far as our elite spear
fortified on hills in a city with walls gets redlined, but:
it costs the Babs 3 swords and a bowman and we get a defense-GL, Murad I. :D:D:D while one of the swords was defending.

mld3-8.jpg


One sword and one bowman don't attack but stay on open ground and another sword/spear/settler stack
moves on the mountain near Edrine.
A bowman fails attacking one of our swords on a hill between Edrine and Istanbul.
All in all not so bad.

530BC: I attack the sword/bowman combo, get a horse-retreat and kill them both.
Now there is only one Bab sword outside of Edrine and those settler/spear pair in the
immediate killing-zone.

Here is an actual pic:
mld3-9.jpg


The road to Izmit (former Eridu) should be finished next turn.
We need luxes so the silks north may be worth a second thought for the settler finishing in Busra.
I let the next leader decide what to do with our second leader, had to concentrate
hard on my turns and need a break. :)
Keep in mind to produce swords AND horses to have capabilities for softening targets,
taking them out and to finish the last one of a stack by retreating on the same turn.
Cats would also be nice to attack the Babs units even on high ground such as hills after
injuring them but we still lack producing capabilities. I had to produce those
2 settlers (the one that replaced Eridu and the one finishing in Busra) to make at least
some progress on our expansion.
We have a few spare horses but we need such reserves to react quickly.
I thought about rushing something in Edrine but the citizens are too unhappy down there.
Maybe they just didn't hear about our progress... :D

Bab-casualties: 8 spears, 7 bowmen, 9 swords and 2 captured settlers, one worker.
We lost 1 archer, 1 horse.
Edrine is an excellent trap, but we have the additional advantage that most of
our units are vets or elite and their's are regulars.


Because Coffee is next I'm sure we are in good hands. :)
Good luck, keep the casualties low and we will win this one.

The SAVE


EDIT: I see, the last picture is not correct, I already changed production in Edrine to Cat.
 
Good job! Might I suggest, that considering the size of our cities, we get the Great Wall?

--EEEK! Scratch that, it would trigger our GA. I think an Army would be best
 
Excellant job! You get a bonus cookie for taking out the first Bab city. We are limping offensively but we are going forward.

My first thought on the GL would be Sun's. This would get rid of those dissidents who claim we should be more militaristic.

It was a good job managing the troops, just the type of results that will put us over the top. The only thing I hate to see is that the Babs have cities on that island. Fortunately, they tend not to re-enforce them from the mainland unless they are threatened. If we built a couple of gallies we nmight be able to take them before they respond. That is a medium range plan.

Can we afford to peal another settler out of Istanbul? If we could get to settlers up in the silks area quickly, it looks like we could get a strong lock on silks. A monoply or near monoply on a lux in this type of game would be very good. Also, it won't hurt to peel a settler out of Edrine, it has walls so there is no defensive reason to let it get above size 6 for now.

Next targets are Samara and Largesh, but is that a dye I see at Niveveh! You mean we could have two luxes on line? After going so long without!

Enough random thoughts!

The hit list:
1) Babylon - Getting the dogpile!
2) India
3) Rome

NorthernPike
CtrTh
Belisar
Coffee (up)
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Meldor
 
Army versus Sun Tzu is a difficult choice. I suppose the main argument against an army is, where could we afford to build Heroic Epic right now? And the possible problem with Sun Tzu (I'm not looking at the save at the moment) is that we might have to wait a while for Feudalism, and hoarding a leader when we've got numerous elites wouldn't be good.
 
On the FP:
We either have to clear jungle or clear the Babs. With the alliances in place it wouldn't be too hard to run settlers only
into the jungle. A granary in Uskudar with the FP near by will gives us the work force to do this.
 
Originally posted by meldor

My first thought on the GL would be Sun's. This would get rid of those dissidents who claim we should be more militaristic.

Sun was my first thought too (obviously I'm part of that small dissident-group :D) but NP is also right, we could sit on our leader for a long time.
A third option is to build/capture the next 2 cities quickly, rush the FP
and jump the palace later.
Difficult choice. If I had to vote, I would say Sun is too important to miss.
Just think of all those Roman and Indian cities we will capture, all of them
ready to heal our troops or to build vets.


If we built a couple of gallies we nmight be able to take them before they respond.

We also need a galley to try getting the rest of the contacts.
 
Well, I haven't seen the map yet but I might be able to get 5 cities up. Three as battlefield sites, two for the FP. That would complete the first core and start the second.
Given the MA's, I'm expecting Sammara to fall quickly and want a settler there to take advantage of that. Same goes for Lagash and another to poach the dyes at Neneveh.

It can't hurt to hold onto the Defender of Edrine until I can work the timing out. Will post again mid turns.
 
Preturn 530BC - 0
Belisar has left me in great shape. I decide on expansion. Switch things around to get 4 settlers.
I have enough military to pursue settling and conquest at Samarra and Lagash. Two more sites at
silk valley will be a farmers gambit.
Mm Edrine to a taxman + lone scientist. Start on monarchy. We may want to switch to Republic.

510Bc - 1
Uskudar settler -> catapult
Lose 1 sword capturing a Bab settler.

I -> Babs move on Edrine, looks like 4 spear + 4 sword next turn.

490BC - 2
Iznik & Bursa settler -> cat & spear
My farming settler finds a barb camp.

I -> India lands a settler at the barb camp, Edrine hangs.Lose archer to pillaging spear.
One India warrior wanders into view.

470BC - 3
I decide not to risk it and settle short. Some fog busting discovers new barbs and
a Sod of five Romans. I like these guys.

450BC - 4
Konya settled at Samarra, the fog busting reveals many Indians. :) Like those guys.

I -> lose a horse to a sword.

430BC - 5
Adana settled.
Lose a sword + horse to a cat + spear at Samarra.

410BC - 6
Lose 1 sword at Lagash.

mldr03-410BC-6.jpg
 
I'm at turn 6. I've lost some guys. Have 4 cities up. Samarra & Lagash should fall soon. I was lucky to get those cities in up north or India would have surronded us. With the Roman and Indian military arriving I doubt that we will get much more land from Babylon. We should settle on those dyes however and try to raze Nineveh. We might get lucky and be able to place one more city in the north. My guess.......??the FP, rush or wait.
 
I expect no-one will agree with this but here it is anyway.

410BC - 6
Lose 1 sword at Lagash.
Rush the FP in Antalya.

Rome starts the Hanging Gardens.

390 BC - 7
FP completes -> spear.
Lagash raised.
Swap Edrine to a settler.
Swap Uskudar to a granary
Rome will not trade Monarchy, I leave science alone.

370BC - 8
no change

I -> India raises Samarra.

350BC - 9
It looks like the whip in Edrine is over.
Lux up to 40%

I -> India makes peace. Starts Sun Tzu.

330BC - 10
no change.

The Game

mldr03-330BC.jpg


On Sun Tzu or the FP:
I went for the FP because I think happiness is most important. There is nothing I could do, (silks are hooked up),
directly about happiness while in despotism. So I did the next best thing. Building the FP will reduce corruption.
A population of 7 is about the limit of our resources. Seven tiles doesn't do much. So the more cities producing
the better.

So my ideas are as follow:
We could use a worker farm. We need workers.
Babylons dyes for sure.
Revolt to Monarchy as soon as it shows. Monarchy and fuedilism might happen this turn set. The increase in
commerce will give happiness a boost.
Build/cash rush markets first then temples.
If another leader shows, consider the Hanging Gardens while building markets.

On the military side -> catapults.
 
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