MLDR003 - NOW in the big D

Well it looks like we have our FP, an early FP is good in this level of game. If we can get the silks and generate another leader for Sun's that would be ideal.

The hit list:
1) Babylon - Getting the dogpile!
2) India
3) Rome

NorthernPike
CtrTh
Belisar
Coffee
Arizona_Steve (up)
Meldor (on deck)
 
Hm, an early FP is nice, but I'm not sure whether Antalya is the ideal place for it, no complete second core possible.
Did we need this instant short-term boost for those 2 cities NE ?
Because I think it could hurt us in the long run. :hmm:
 
We can always rush a Palace elsewhere later. I think this early FP will help with our core production while dealing with our immediate neighbors.
 
You are underrating the FP.

Remeber those 2 cities are removed from the capitol corruption list. Therefore you have other cities considered closer to the capitol and less corrupt.
 
(0) 330BC
Looking over the land, I formulate a number of goals for my turn.
Firstly, I'd like to see Ninevah razed and replaced with an Ottoman city next to the dyes.
Secondly, settle on the hill four tiles north-west of Sinop, to get as many of those silks within our border as possible, for trading opportunities (there is a Roman city covering one of the silks).
Thirdly, try to get a settler up to the ivory to the north-east of Antalya.
For wonders, try to get Sun Tzu, Leonardos and Sistine. If no wonders are available, go the army/heroic epic route.
Fourthly, try to get Monarchy and revolt.
And finally, try to get a galley to the other landmass.

Now let's see what we have out there.
Our defensive situation is not as bad as it looks, well at least until I started playing. There are a lot of Roman and Indian troops in our land, fighting on our side. These will go a long way to mop up Babylon's troops that stray into our territory, so I can leave our defenses a little thinner than I otherwise would. This not only releases troops for an attack on Ninevah, but allows production of additional settlers to populate our Northern lands.
Edrine is building a settler right now. There is also a scientist there, researching Monarchy. Since that is the only ancient age tech left to research, chances are that we'll pick it up from the Great Library. So the scientist is put back to work on a hill. Luxuries remain at 30%.
Istanbul switched from swordsman to spear. We need two defenders in our larger cities for military police. Istanbul is guarded by a single horseman.

IBT
No attacks, and whadayaknow... we get Monarchy and Fuedalism from the Great Library.
Dehli completes the Great Wall. There is a cascade to the Hanging Gardens and Sun Tzu's.
Another Babylonian settler appears, guarded by a spear AND a sword.

(1) 310BC
Move some workers around, and upgrade swords to medieval infantry, and spears to pikes where possible. Elite non-leader producing troops are not upgraded.
One babylon sword killed.
Pay India 500 gold to get them back in the war with Babylon. We need their troops to help our defence.
We have no gold/turn payments to anyone, so I begin the revolt to Monarchy. India and Rome should help to hold off Babylon. We draw 3 turns of anarchy.
I call up Ghandi, and pay him 250 gold + world map for wines and ivory, to help avoid starvation in our cities. Hire two taxmen and an entertainer to avoid riots.
A delicate balancing act ensues, trying to keep enough troops in Edrine.

IBT
Keep an eye on wandering Babylonian spear/settler pairs. A Babylonian sword moves next to Edrine.

(2) 290BC
Some more troop and worker shuffling. I get a pike into Edrine from Istanbul, temporarily leaving the latter empty until another pike arrives from Bursa.

IBT
Watch as babylonian swords attack Roman warriors instead of Edrine. An Indian horseman kills a spear/settler pair that I had earmarked for my next turn :(


(3) 270BC
Kill one sword on a mountain with a medieval infantry. Attack a spear/settler pair, losing an elite sword, but winning with a medieval infantry, who promotes to elite.

IBT
Few attacks, none affecting us. The first Babylonian medieval infantry are sighted.

(4) 250BC:
We're getting low on troops in Edrine, so I bring reinforcements from Adana. Guess I won't be attacking Ninevah this turn.

IBT
Babylon is more interested in attacking Romans than us, which is a good thing. India has also moved some cannon fodder within range of their swords and medievals, so we should be OK for another turn.
Konya riots, big deal. It's not connected to the road net, so it went miserable when it grew to size 2.
Anarchy ends, Monarchy selected.
Romans build Tarentum exactly where I had a city earmarked. We're boxed in now, so any new land gained will be at the expense of the Babylonians.

(5) 230BC
Post-monarchy adjustments. Now making 44 gold/turn.

IBT
A Babylonian galley is moving up our coastline.

(6) 210BC
I'm forced to move some horsemen to our northern lands due to the Babylonian galley.

IBT
India clears out the remaining Babylonian troops. It looks like they're heading for Ellipi.
Temple rushed at Sinop.
Catharge completes the Hanging gardens. No cascade, so I guess everyone else is already building Sun Tzu's.

(7) 190BC
Move horsemen into Antalya to guard against that Babylonian galley. I note also that we have contact with all but one other civ.
I sell Engineering to Montezuma, for Contact with the Arabs, and their world map.
I'm not sure what the attack order will be, our contact was sold to Iroquois, Catharge and Montezuma last turn, with the Arabs taking last place. None of them are ahead in tech, and the Arabs are woefully behind.

IBT:
No attacks. Indeed there are no babylonian troops in our territory.

(8) 170BC
(9) 150BC
Nada

IBT
Rome cancels the military alliance. It's expensive to renew (world map + around 27/turn), so I leave it up to the next leader to decide.

(10) 130BC
Nada

Notes:
In summary, we had a BIG problem with defence, which I spent most of my turns alleviating. The alliance with India was worthwhile, keeping the Babylonian troops out of our way, but at the same time, they may have the jump on us when it comes to clobbering Babylonian cities. They're definitely headed towards Ellipi in a big way, so chances are that there's a resource there we don't know about. I think we have maxed out available land for now, so our only option is to attack Babylonian cities. The next leader may want to renegotiate the military alliance with Rome.

There is a pikeman next to Uskadar, who is on GOTO to Sinop. There's a number of horsemen in Antalya, to defend against that galley, which still hasn't unloaded any troops. There's also a settler in Adana, which will be useful if any Bab cities get razed.

The save

MLDR03_130BC.jpg
 
A good consolidating turn. :goodjob: I notice our army is now described as strong relative to Babylon's.
 
I'm not sure whether Antalya is the ideal place for it
And not my first choice. Also, Antalya was not settle where I wanted it. My first choice was Synop. Good reasons not to proceed. But India's warrior/settler pair and the Roman block forced Antalya. The choice was simple symmetry.

There is an immediate short term gain for sure. We now have 10 cities. 3 in the FP, 7 in the Palace . All 10 can be productive +/-. Thats not bad long term. There is opportunity for perhaps two more cities inside Babylon. Those sites can also be productive. Thats getting better. I agree, its not ideal and does means a larger 1st core.

In terms of city management its a process of rotating thru the cities, say 2 at a time, to build improvements, increase happiness and become more productive. This was a tough choice, congrats to Meldor for this variant.
 
As ChrTh said, we can always jump the palace later, depending on how fast we finish off India.
Otherwise our original core just has to be extended.

Now that we have survived the first crash I'm sure this variant will be lots of fun :)
 
130 BC (0)
Wake up our elite* unit and upgrade him to an MDI, wake up two other units and send them south. Wake Pike and settler send them towards Nineveh.
(I) Babylonia lands a single sword in the northern jungle. The Romans and Indians are going after Ellipi heavily. Edrine Pike-Horseman.

110 BC (1)
Wake horsemen in FP and put them outside Sinop to hit sword next turn. Troops moving south. With the number of troops in the area, Edrine is pretty safe.
(I) uskudar Granary->Rax.

90 BC (2)
Elite horseman dispatches reg swird in the north. Rest of troops advancing on Nineveh.Bursa temple-MDI
(I) A hurt Bab MDi passes up attacking our Pike/settler and goes for our elite MDI, it loses.

70 BC (3)
Found Kiafa on top of the dyes. Start a temple.
(I) Istanbul Temple->MDI, Adana Rax->Pike

50 BC (4)
The Roman troops stopped moving south last turn and turned towards our core. It was expensive, but I bought insurance for 11gpt and 252g in the form of an alliance.
(I) Edrine Horseman->MDI, Antalya Rax->MDI

30 BC (5)
We throw our forces at Nineveh taking out 2 Pikes, 1 Spear, 1 MDI and losing 1 MDI. The remaining MDI left is down to 2 HP and our two horseman attack and retreat doing no damage.
(I) We get invention and start no research on Gunpowder. Iznil pike->worker.

10 BC (6)
The regular MDI heals but the Babs send no one else to cover. I send a hurt elite sword to finish him off and we raze Nineveh. I swap Edrine to a settler as a nice place on the river just opened up. The three salves gained are sent back to start raoding Kiafa and the dyes into our network. This removes all cultural pressure from Edrine.
(I) We get Monotheism.Bursa MDI->settler. Uskudar Rax->Pike.

10 AD (7)
Use our cash to rush a Rax in Kiafa to rest the troops.
(I) Ellipi finally falls to the Indians.Istanbul MDI->Pike. Iznik worker->horseman, Kiafa Rax->temple.

30 AD (8)
Take out a hurt Bab MDI. There is another one but it is just out of range of our elite sword and MDI.
(I) I don't know why the hurt MDI moved away from our elites but it won't do it any good we can still reach it. If you get the idea I am leader fishing like crazy, you are correct. We had a shot at Sun's and it is fading very fast. Worst case we get Leo's maybe. Edrine settler->horseman. Izmit Rax->horseman. (Hopefully we get knights and these will be cheap upgrades).

50 AD (9)
Our freshly healed troops move towards Ur.
(I) Bursa settler ->Pikeman, Uskudar pike->horse

1250 BC (10)
Our sod advances on Ur. The settler with the two MDI escort is headed for the corner river square 2s and 2sw of Kiafa.

There is a second settler that can pick up a pike escort in Kiafa to get another site if we raze Ur. I irrigated a BG for a trun to get water to the FP wheat. The workers are mining back over it now.

The hit list:
1) Babylon
2) India
3) Rome

NorthernPike (up)
CtrTh (on deck)
Belisar
Coffee
Arizona_Steve
Meldor

The Game
 
Originally posted by meldor
If you get the idea I am leader fishing like crazy, you are correct. We had a shot at Sun's and it is fading very fast. Worst case we get Leo's maybe.

Seems like we are advancing :D
Leo would be nice too. We will upgrade a lot of horses and cats.
But if we have to decide I would definitely favor Sun.
 
Got it, a little belatedly.

We're playing a one-core game, and most of our core cities already have their barracks. Does this affect anyone's thinking as to whether we should take Sun Tzu or Leonardo, assuming we're lucky enough to have the choice?
 
@NP: As I said, Leo would be nice, but Sun will be great once we are on the offense. Close call, but we definitely need barracks in captured Indian and Roman cities.
Having them in place will speed up our advance and the fact that we don't need to rush them with cash will save a huge amount of money.
 
Originally posted by Coffee
-nt-

fine. my bad. i'll step down. :wavey:
heres a challenge: replay the turns from Belisars save and get Sun Tzu.

@meldor, drop me. this one has become too serious. thks and good luck.
:confused:
Part of playing in SGs is the fact that not everyone is going to make the same chioce that you would have had you played it yourself. I have been questioned many times about why I did things as I did and when I did them. Having played numerous games with Lee and Sirian, you have to have a little thicker skin and stand up for the choices you make. There are comments there about what we can do going forward, those would be there if the choice was good or bad. I do think you are reading more onto this than anyone here intended.

Now, as far as the FP location is concerned, it is fine where it is right now. If we put no more into the city as it stands, we can abandon it at a later point and rebuild the FP elsewhere in a more suitable and agreeable location to all. This isn't something I have done before, but it is something that can be done. No matter wherer the FP had been placed, it would not have been ideal for a while.

As far as Sun;s is concerned, we haven't lost it yet. It is probably pretty close, and hopefully we won't lose Leo's on the cascade, but either one of them on this level is simple a matter of luck. If you or me had gotten another leader then it wouldn't even be an issue. NP may still snag one or the other for us. Sun's preferably, Leo's as second choice.

The first SG I played in with Lee he blistered me (he has mellowed since then) for a choice I made. I defended myself but he insisted that I had made the wrong choice (I stiil think I was right). I almost didn't play in another SG with him. Now, he and I have played in at least 20 SGs together, my HDD is litered with subdirectories of LKxx games. I would suggest that you don't take things so personnal. Learn from it if you made a suboptimal choice and move on. Heck, some of the best players on these boards have made some huge blunders, some still infamous today, yet the game and their play went on. I am not going to drop you from this SG unless you absolutely refuse to play any more. Even if you don't play, the game will continue from my save and not the one before you played. That is the corp of the SG play. Otherwise we could all just play GOTMs.
 
I completely agree with Meldor. Part of an SG is the discussion, otherwise we could play our own games and post it in the story-thread.
We have a great team of experienced players and if we wouldn't discuss things in a way-beyond deity level game (in a constructive way) it would be senseless.
Hope to have you on-board :)

Belisar
 
Since my name was mentioned, I will throw in my 2 cents. I would have taken the sub-optimal fp. Even if only a handful of cities benefit, you are still ahead. You could always have a game where you move palace later on.

It took me a long time to understand why the deity player rushed for the fp. Any fp is better then none for another 50 turns.

As for negative comments, I still have been hit for some subtle misses during my turns. I even had turns I thought mm was great, and the next player found several mistakes.

As for mellowing, nah, I just learned many battles aren't worth fighting.

@Meldor - about that first game. I screwed up by being in Democracy in the first place. I since learned that Democracy sucks as a government unless you are religious. The core difference is you were thinking domination, while I was thinking space race. Shows you how I have changed. I doubt I would ever choose space at this point unless it was a tournament goal.
 
I am not a natural Deity level player. When I play solo, it's usually on Emporer, with completely random starts to ensure I have to cope with a wide range of opening conditions, and to make the most of the Civilization traits that I have been given. Once I have more than 10 or so cities, I neglect micromanagement, only returning to it when cities reach size 6 without an aquaduct or river, or when they reach size 12 without a hospital, for shield optimization. Hell, I've even lost a few solo Emporer level games recently.

Still, I love to take a crack at these Deity succession games. And I fully expect to receive criticism from the other players and lurkers in the thread, many of which are vastly more detailed and experienced in their analysis of each situation. Given this criticism, I can learn from it and improve my game. That to me is the whole purpose of succession games, and I believe it is by far the best way to excel at Civilization, way better than reading the War Academy threads.

So for these reasons, I add my comments to those of Meldor and Belizar, and urge you to hang in there.

EDIT: And Lee too... I've received plenty of verbal lashings from him in the past :)
 
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