MLDR003 - NOW in the big D

[Belisar]

Originally posted by meldor
I would hope the two southern cities are easy to take as the majority of our units are up on the northwesteren front.

I saw only horses and some longbows in the Uruk-area
We have knights in Babylon and MDIs in Salonika. They might be not enough
to take the two cities in a few turns but I was more worried about huge Inidan invasions stacks from their homelands.

Originally posted by meldor
If we are to go for a wonder, I always preferd double cathedrals to one that was limited to only one landmass.
[/B]

In every builder-game I would agree, but for 3 reasons I suggest Bach if we really go for a wonder:

1. We have only a few temples, not to speak from shield-heavy cathedrals.
Sistine wouldn't be useless for a long time whereas Bach would help every single city on our landmass (I doubt that we will have productive cities on the other landmass)

2. With Bach, the 4 native luxes of our continent (+ maybe Abu's beavers) and marketplaces (which we need anyway) we should have solved our lux-problem. I think the critical part of this game will be played with size-12 cities.

3. Finally we can capture Sistine while Bach would be useless if built on the other landmass.

 

[Belisar]

Originally posted by Northern Pike
--(I think that's the hard part of
an SG: Meldor and NP were leaderfishing and I get one with the first elite victory,
this is your man guys )--

Very graciously said, Belisar. Thanks.

I felt a bit guilty but only a bit

I don't object to a musketeer army, but if we're going to do it this way while mostly building pikemen (which seems essential for the moment) we'll have to hook up, unhook, and eventually re-hook our saltpetre. We don't consider this an exploit, do we?

I guess Meldor has to decide about what should be considered as an exploit because it is his game.
Personally I think that you should have the possibility of building "obsolete" units anyway. In one of my own AW games, I founded two "filler"-cities and avoided a connection with the road network.
While the size-12 core cities produced kights and later Cav, these towns just produced cheap MP-units for my whole civ.
Same thing when playing with Greece or Rome. Who wants 60-shield units with defense 4 when one can have 3 20-shield pikes or 2 legions with the additional attack-capability?

 

[meldor]

Your point on Bach's is well taking, I would agree that short term it would be best. However I still lean towards an Army and HE to increase the chance of more leaders. However not so much that I would cry if someone went either way.

Did India get an elephant victory in the war with Babylon? If so they will still be in their GA at this time. If not, then the first one they get against us or Rome will put them there as they haven't built many wonders that I recall.

As far as the connecting and unconnecting of saltpeter is concerned: I do consider this to be a minor expliot. It is not something the AI can or will do. I do consdier it OK to wait to hook it up, that is a strategic choice, but disconnecting it after to build cheaper unit for upgrade does go over the line. The use of unconnected cities to build MP units is however sonething I had never considered, I will have to contemplate that one. I really consider it an exploit if it goes to the extremes that it did in the Russia game where it was used to get around the inability to cash rush in communism.

 

[Belisar]

The Indians had no War Elephants on our side of the landmass and were already withdrawing their forces (horses, longbows, spears) when I attacked the two last Bab-cities south. I saw the first Elephant in the middle of my turns on "their" side, so I guess we will have bad luck and they will get their GA during the next turns
(We have to declare this turn, you can delete Babylon from the list).

 

[Coffee]

I favor the army.

On happiness
I count 3 luxs with Ivory unconnected. We should play to our commecial strength and cash rush the markets and harbors. If we can get a 4th lux then we likely won't need a happiness wonder. See below.

 

[Northern Pike]

Originally posted by meldor


As far as the connecting and unconnecting of saltpeter is concerned: I do consider this to be a minor expliot. It is not something the AI can or will do. I do consdier it OK to wait to hook it up, that is a strategic choice, but disconnecting it after to build cheaper unit for upgrade does go over the line.

I've never had any qualms about doing this, because IMO it just compensates for one of the game's silliest features: the way in which the player is punished for getting Gunpowder with a far less cost-effective infantry unit. But your game, your call.

 

[Coffee]

@chrth - some thoughts on my upcoming turns.

If its possible, leave me enough income to start rushing some markets. Suggest you rush the harbors and build embassies first. Then sell some tech overseas to help finance the war. Rushing the harbors will allow you to reduce the lux rate with or without markets. -> more income.

If nothing else you will be able to short rush units with the extra income. Good luck, one Indian GA coming your way.

 

[ChrTh]

Hey guys, just wanted to let you know I'm back and I got it ... I'll be playing tonight.

 

[Arizona_Steve]

OK, I know I'm going to sound like a moaning old fart (well, I admit I'm a few years short, but I'm well on my way), but I think we need to do a little more to enforce the 48 hour time limit on turns here. It's been 3 days since the last set of turns has been played, and frankly, It's hard to stay interested in a game where there is nothing new to be read for several days at a time.

 

[ChrTh]

I agree with Steve.

Expect a turn report tonight

EDIT: Who thinks we should volunteer AZ_Steve for SUL5b?

 

[Arizona_Steve]

Yikes @ SUL5b!!

I only got through about two pages of it, but sheesh! ONE YEAR and only at the early Industrial age??

 

[ChrTh]

Turn 0 -- 350AD

Ok, Babs are gone, time to declare war on India, what to do with the leader, hmmm...

Ok, I start war with India, and kill some of their troops (without loss). I ally with Rome (with the terms as listed above).

I decide to build an Army with the leader...I think it'll take too long to get to Bach, or any other worthwhile Wonder. I want HE.

I also want a Musket army...I create a colony on the Saltpetre, and upgrade a few pike to Muskets

How come we always get stuck fighting the #1 civ?

IT:
We lose two MDI

Turn 1 -- 360 AD
Palace expands! Kill some more troops without loss. I am forced to leave the colony undefended, though

IT:
We lose a pike and two knights..and our colony

Turn 2 -- 370 AD
Kill some more troops, lose only a pike

IT:
Lose two MDI, but they die fighting!

Turn 3 -- 380 AD
Kill some more troops, lose nothing

IT:
We lose a Knight who kills like 4 troops trying to take him down

Turn 4 -- 390 AD
We're down Chem and Astro to Rome and Carth...no chance for a 2fer right now

Kill troops without loss.

We take New Jaipur and now control the island

IT:
We lose an MDI (goes down fighting)

Turn 5 -- 400 AD
We lose a Knight

IT:
No troop losses!

Turn 6 -- 410 AD
Lose 2 knights fighting War Elephants, but our army gets a victory. Istanbul changed to Heroic Epic

Ok, I need to stop here until tomorrow night ... we're killing Indian troops easily 4 to 1. Ellipi and Uruk have substantial troopage, so I've had a hard time making progress on that front.

TO BE CONTINUED...

 

[Northern Pike]

Sounds good so far. Given the initial size of the Indians' army and their GA, we just have to accept a substantial period of attritional warfare before we can expect to make much progress against their cities.

 

[Belisar]

Originally posted by ChrTh
How come we always get stuck fighting the #1 civ?

If you mean the Babs then I would say we did a good job.
Remember we had 3 cities when they had 10.
Typical ancient-age proportion on deity.

We take New Jaipur and now control the island

That's good! no iron to the Indians, will prevent them from producing MDIs.
Longbows are easier to kill.
Did they already use muskets?

Ellipi and Uruk have substantial troopage, so I've had a hard time making progress on that front.

That's why I concentrated our troops in the Busra area.
Our first goal is to hold the lines with minimal casualties, 1:4 sounds not bad. Don't forget to produce the cheap cats in our southern cities to further reduce our losses.
Metallurgy is not that far away.
If enough Indian Elephants die on our cheap pikes, we can build up our offensive forces and make some progress.


Any Roman units in sight ?

 

[ChrTh]

The Romans have been doing damage to the Indians...they are attacking with gusto, and have razed at least one Indian city! Of course, they're our next target...

My final four turns are basically going to be spent in a defensive posture; probably half of the troops I lost was because I was aggressive offensively, and left unguarded troops too far in front.

@Belisar: I mean the Indians. They're #1 in score right now.

 

[Belisar]

@ChrTh: This would be way to easy for us if we got only undeveloped jungle-AIs in the first stage of the game.

I love your sig , must be one of Murphy's laws:
If you sign up for 3 SGs, you will defenitely reach the point when you are up in all of them.

 

[ChrTh]

@Belisar: Yeah, you're right. In fact, it's better to face the big guy now, rather at the end...hopefully the other continent will continue to keep each other at a respectable level (although the Aztecs will likely be conquered by the end of the Industrial Age, as is their normal method of playing).

Yeah, I thought the sig would be a good idea, just everyone in my games are aware

 

[ChrTh]

I think the Romans are taking this seriously:

 

[Belial]

That is the biggest SOD I have ever seen.

 

[ChrTh]

Turn 7 -- 420 AD
Nada

IT:
Romans take New Bangalore, heading towards Ganges

Turn 8 -- 430 AD
I build Denizili, Saltpetre now back in our borders

Turn 9 -- 440 AD

IT:
Denizili somehow falls to a horseman? Forgot to RNG

Turn 10 -- 450 AD
Not much


Well, I didn't do so hot ... we lost some more troops and India is getting ornery near Bursa....hopefully the next player can reverse my inanities...

The Knight from New Jaipur just left to take care of the Settler Spear pair that landed on the island....hopefully we'll get them before they settle...and hopefully New Jaipur won't flip either (may have been a bad idea, now that I think about it)

Fortunately the Romans are in full ass-kicking mode...hopefully they'll stay that way. Navigation is now out there, but since we don't have Astro, we can't get it (not that we care, methinks).

Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MLDR3_450AD.SAV

@Belial, well, it has already split up (and hopefully you've seen larger in the modern age...because I reckon we will)