[MOD] Fall from Heaven II
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
back on the subject of offensive bonuses (tile attacked from and tile attacking into)..
Here are some thoughts:
forest defense bonus? why? the legions didn't exactly climb on trees into perfect defensive positions when attacked at teutonberg forest.
And as it is, it buggers up elf civz because they cant drive away attackers.
I reckon offensive bonuses are much more interesting than defensive bonuses, so the forest defensive bonus can be removed.
The hill one should stay because it makes sense.
running uphill tires people.
now:
1) elven melee and archer units should have a 20% bonus attacking into forest, a 10% bonus attacking FROM a forest (can be combined to 30%), and 20% defending a forest tile.
2) Cavalry units should have a +20% bonus attacking into plains, +10% attacking FROM plains.
They should also have -50% to offense when attacking into forests or jungles.
(this is best uniquely assigned to cavalry because it makes sense with cavalry while making no sense with say, axemen.. unless of course its unique cavalry
like some.. I dunno, giant ****atoo cavalry).
3) Dwarven units could get an extra 20% bonus when defending cities, helping flesh out their 'stalward defender' style (if indeed you're going for standard fantasy dwarf style).
4) this is a bit of a headache, but cavalry units, I think, should be able to retreat loki style from attacking melee units when defending plains or hill tiles. hard to implement though?
5) Golems should have +50% attacking hills (negating the hill defense bonus) and perhaps +10% to attacking into forests and jungles.
Because golems don't get tired running uphill.
Nor do they have any problems with snagging branches and biting insects.
6) undead units should have no attack penalty when crossing rivers (they can just walk over the bottom), and they should also have a +50% attacking into hills, thus negating the hill defense bonus, again, because they suffer no fatigue.
There is so much more that can be done with offensive combat bonuses.. desert and tundra civz could have large bonuses that actually mean something on their home terrain, able to drive attackers away instead of sitting and defending and hoping the enemy won't pillage instead of attacking the defending stack.
Unique units could get unique bonuses that are another step in flavour and tactical differentiation, etc.
of course, it has to be possible to implement first :>
Unrelated but also nice:
Amurite firebows should, instead of fire II promotion, should have access to simply an automated effect that creates a fireball whenever an enemy is within fireball range (3 tiles?).
then you'll have to click a lot less and not get them out of fortify mode. I mean, you have no reason not to summon that fireball (which isn't that strong anyhow), so best if its automated.
Here are some thoughts:
forest defense bonus? why? the legions didn't exactly climb on trees into perfect defensive positions when attacked at teutonberg forest.
And as it is, it buggers up elf civz because they cant drive away attackers.
I reckon offensive bonuses are much more interesting than defensive bonuses, so the forest defensive bonus can be removed.
The hill one should stay because it makes sense.
running uphill tires people.
now:
1) elven melee and archer units should have a 20% bonus attacking into forest, a 10% bonus attacking FROM a forest (can be combined to 30%), and 20% defending a forest tile.
2) Cavalry units should have a +20% bonus attacking into plains, +10% attacking FROM plains.
They should also have -50% to offense when attacking into forests or jungles.
(this is best uniquely assigned to cavalry because it makes sense with cavalry while making no sense with say, axemen.. unless of course its unique cavalry
like some.. I dunno, giant ****atoo cavalry).3) Dwarven units could get an extra 20% bonus when defending cities, helping flesh out their 'stalward defender' style (if indeed you're going for standard fantasy dwarf style).
4) this is a bit of a headache, but cavalry units, I think, should be able to retreat loki style from attacking melee units when defending plains or hill tiles. hard to implement though?
5) Golems should have +50% attacking hills (negating the hill defense bonus) and perhaps +10% to attacking into forests and jungles.
Because golems don't get tired running uphill.
Nor do they have any problems with snagging branches and biting insects.
6) undead units should have no attack penalty when crossing rivers (they can just walk over the bottom), and they should also have a +50% attacking into hills, thus negating the hill defense bonus, again, because they suffer no fatigue.
There is so much more that can be done with offensive combat bonuses.. desert and tundra civz could have large bonuses that actually mean something on their home terrain, able to drive attackers away instead of sitting and defending and hoping the enemy won't pillage instead of attacking the defending stack.
Unique units could get unique bonuses that are another step in flavour and tactical differentiation, etc.
of course, it has to be possible to implement first :>
Unrelated but also nice:
Amurite firebows should, instead of fire II promotion, should have access to simply an automated effect that creates a fireball whenever an enemy is within fireball range (3 tiles?).
then you'll have to click a lot less and not get them out of fortify mode. I mean, you have no reason not to summon that fireball (which isn't that strong anyhow), so best if its automated.
Kael
Deity
Lightzy said:
We probably won't apply an effect form the tile being attacked from, its to much (at least for now). I would like to assume the battle occurs in the defenders tile, so he picks the terrain and not leave players circling enemy units looking for the optimal terrain to attack from.
2) Cavalry units should have a +20% bonus attacking into plains, +10% attacking FROM plains.
They should also have -50% to offense when attacking into forests or jungles.
(this is best uniquely assigned to cavalry because it makes sense with cavalry while making no sense with say, axemen.. unless of course its unique cavalry
I never really understood why Firaxis went with base terrain bonus's instead of unit specific attacker adjustments. A hill might be great against knights but its not much good against a helicopter. A forest may be great against a helicopter, but isn't much good against a bunch of axemen.
I suspect we will lower or remove some of the base terrain modifiers and replace them with unitcombat specific adjustments.
Dwarves are next on our plate for design, im not sure what we are going to so with them yet.
I thought abotu this, its actually pretty easy. I was going to allow a check based on the units withdrawal chance if the unit has a movement point left. I think thats how they did it in civ3. Im still considering it.
I think the hill bonus is more than just fatigue (which some would argue is largely negated during all but the longest battles where adreniline keeps you going) but a general slowing of advancing troops to allow the attackers more time to pelt them with arrows or charge down with the advantage of inertia.
Yeap, I agree.
That would allow the firebow to attack and cast which isn't intended.
Oh, I'd actually like the firebow to attack and cast
It is after all slightly underpowered considering its a special unit.
any other civ with a mage can give their archers flaming arrows and turn them into stronger archers than the firebows (who have only a power rating of 5 and relying on the extra 20% of the fire arrows).
and the fireballs are rather weak really.
As it is right now I'd prefer to use regular longbowmen with a mage giving them fire arrows over the firebows for city defense.. stronger and no need to move out of fortify mode.
which kind of puts firebows out of a job unless their role is supposed to be more specialized.
in which case the amurites could use a different 'city garrison' unit and the firebows could benefit from some different promotion and upgrade paths
It is after all slightly underpowered considering its a special unit.
any other civ with a mage can give their archers flaming arrows and turn them into stronger archers than the firebows (who have only a power rating of 5 and relying on the extra 20% of the fire arrows).
and the fireballs are rather weak really.
As it is right now I'd prefer to use regular longbowmen with a mage giving them fire arrows over the firebows for city defense.. stronger and no need to move out of fortify mode.
which kind of puts firebows out of a job unless their role is supposed to be more specialized.
in which case the amurites could use a different 'city garrison' unit and the firebows could benefit from some different promotion and upgrade paths
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Kael,
I send you my Govannan idea in the Heroes Thread.
The Frog.
I send you my Govannan idea in the Heroes Thread.
The Frog.
Ideas for Govanna
I would imagine he would be a warrior mage leader or general type for the Amurites
I would use him as a mid range hero that comes into play mid game as the amurites don't have too many unique units, although the ones they have are great.
something like
7 attack/ 2 movement- hero, fire I, fire II, Channelling I, Channelling 2 or Sorcery I and II, +40%vs arcane units, maybe something commandlike such as march or drill
Flavor text would be a story about a boy in a small village who had to fight for respect as such he is good against arcane units. He rose through the ranks of the military through trial and fortitude to lead his troops.
Fenrii
I would imagine he would be a warrior mage leader or general type for the Amurites
I would use him as a mid range hero that comes into play mid game as the amurites don't have too many unique units, although the ones they have are great.
something like
7 attack/ 2 movement- hero, fire I, fire II, Channelling I, Channelling 2 or Sorcery I and II, +40%vs arcane units, maybe something commandlike such as march or drill
Flavor text would be a story about a boy in a small village who had to fight for respect as such he is good against arcane units. He rose through the ranks of the military through trial and fortitude to lead his troops.
Fenrii
samari_tycoon
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 53
Speaking of golems are they immune to plauge and such? It would make sense to make them so.
Kael
Deity
samari_tycoon said:
Yeah, there is a special isLiving() function that runs for a variety of effects and won't effect golems, spells, undead and such. One of the things that calls it is disease, its also checked to see if the unti can be turned into a werewolf, turned into a slave, etc.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Crashed next turn
, hope these help? Saved game is to big for this forum. Small as i could get it is 504.
, hope these help? Saved game is to big for this forum. Small as i could get it is 504.
darkedone02
The Suggestor
Can you add some movies for your wonders? I like to see some legendary screens for these wonders.
thealien_83
King
I've mentioned this before, but it didn't seem to elicit a response at the time, and since it's 'struck again' I figured I'd try and mention it again now. Totally addicted as I am, I'm playing a new game, right? This time with the Ljosalfar, and their military-style leader, Amelanchier or whatever his name is. Defender trait, yeah. And this time, just like when I played the Elohim, not all my units get the Homeland trait. And I don't mean they don't have it when they are outside my cultural borders or anything, they just fail to acquire it when produced. And given that it just says "Free Promotion" on the description of the Defender leader trait, I would assume it works like all the other Free Promotions, and not a "might" get the Homeland trait.
Also, for some reason, it seems like units built in the capitol are more prone to getting the Homeland trait. But that just might be random weirdness, what do I know.
And on an unrelated side-note of curiosity.. Is there any particular thought behind the Movement 1 for the Goblins? It just struck me as a little weird that they are the only (insofar as I can remember) Civ to get a Move 1 scout unit. At first I figured it might have to do with their Barbarian trait, so that they are at least a little bit limited in how much they can explore (and get those juicy villages.. Mmm.. villages..).. But then I realized that none of the other Barbarian trait Civ's have that 'problem', so.. Curious.
Anyways. Rocking stuff all the same, keep up the good work.
Cheers!
Also, for some reason, it seems like units built in the capitol are more prone to getting the Homeland trait. But that just might be random weirdness, what do I know.
And on an unrelated side-note of curiosity.. Is there any particular thought behind the Movement 1 for the Goblins? It just struck me as a little weird that they are the only (insofar as I can remember) Civ to get a Move 1 scout unit. At first I figured it might have to do with their Barbarian trait, so that they are at least a little bit limited in how much they can explore (and get those juicy villages.. Mmm.. villages..).. But then I realized that none of the other Barbarian trait Civ's have that 'problem', so.. Curious.
Anyways. Rocking stuff all the same, keep up the good work.
Cheers!
chocmushroom
Warlord
I found the BIG RED DRAGON in his city, Scarey.
I killed him with my troops
I had to raise the city
I didn't mind playing the Orcs untill then, but that city had a wonder in it, & you have no choice but to raise them, I wish this was not so harsh, like you had the choice for a city with a wonder in it, to not raise it but to destroy all building in it bar the wonders and reduce the population to one, otherwise the trait is just to harsh.
I killed him with my troops
I had to raise the city
I didn't mind playing the Orcs untill then, but that city had a wonder in it, & you have no choice but to raise them, I wish this was not so harsh, like you had the choice for a city with a wonder in it, to not raise it but to destroy all building in it bar the wonders and reduce the population to one, otherwise the trait is just to harsh.
Just personal preference here, but I think mages/conjurers should be much stronger and much harder to get, as well as severely limited in number.
And there should be some benefit to planting them in cities. some global defensive benefit or some such.
I'm thinking here of the famous mages that live in cities such as Neverwinter, who drive away even dragons that come calling
There's not much element of choice since you can get infinity mages and have access to all sphere spells.. so until archmages, mages just arent that great.
I took 4-5 with me in an offensive last game, and I found it more an annoyance to click to summon weak tigers and stuff, so I just stopped using their spells..
their buff spells I used before the offensive, but you only need one mage with enchantment to do all that.
And there should be some benefit to planting them in cities. some global defensive benefit or some such.
I'm thinking here of the famous mages that live in cities such as Neverwinter, who drive away even dragons that come calling
There's not much element of choice since you can get infinity mages and have access to all sphere spells.. so until archmages, mages just arent that great.
I took 4-5 with me in an offensive last game, and I found it more an annoyance to click to summon weak tigers and stuff, so I just stopped using their spells..
their buff spells I used before the offensive, but you only need one mage with enchantment to do all that.
I think its too easy to beat the comp early on, AI has no clue how to defend theyr cities, easily killed 2 Ai's on tiny map on immortal(163 turns)[didnt tried deity, maybe it possible even there], I think thats too easy and AI algortms must be repaired... but thats what I think, the mod is great
Kael
Deity
thealien_83 said:
I havent witnessed it. Are you sure the units you are making are supposed to have the promotion? Its only supposed to be applied to Melee, Archer, Recon and Mounted units.
The orcs tend to be lowed costed but lower power. For their scouts that means that they only have a move 1, but they cost 15 instead of 25.
Kael
Deity
chocmushroom said:I found the BIG RED DRAGON in his city, Scarey.
I killed him with my troops
I had to raise the city
I didn't mind playing the Orcs untill then, but that city had a wonder in it, & you have no choice but to raise them, I wish this was not so harsh, like you had the choice for a city with a wonder in it, to not raise it but to destroy all building in it bar the wonders and reduce the population to one, otherwise the trait is just to harsh.
That is the bad point of the trait. Since the orcs units are so chap and they can attack early without worrying about defense they need some sort of handicap to keep them from being to powerful. That handicap is the fact that they cant take cities.
Kael
Deity
Lightzy said:Just personal preference here, but I think mages/conjurers should be much stronger and much harder to get, as well as severely limited in number.
And there should be some benefit to planting them in cities. some global defensive benefit or some such.
I'm thinking here of the famous mages that live in cities such as Neverwinter, who drive away even dragons that come calling
There's not much element of choice since you can get infinity mages and have access to all sphere spells.. so until archmages, mages just arent that great.
I took 4-5 with me in an offensive last game, and I found it more an annoyance to click to summon weak tigers and stuff, so I just stopped using their spells..
their buff spells I used before the offensive, but you only need one mage with enchantment to do all that.
Thats one of the reason I included the editor. If you have excel you can go change the cost of the arcane units and the power of the spells to match your personal preference. In the next version there should be a global value that increases or decreases the strength of all spells and summons.
justin_in_bango
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 34
The major problem I have is not a glitch, but just trying to figure something out. I can create mages that turn desert to grassland and vice-versa, but I have still not figured out the manner to turn Tundra to anything.... What is the secret?
Also.... Why is everyone having issues. My computer is OLD and I have never seen any bugs. The only issues I have are my own fault (I have limited memory and my computer slows down as it needs to process more (Like I said it sucks, but it WAS free))
Also.... Why is everyone having issues. My computer is OLD and I have never seen any bugs. The only issues I have are my own fault (I have limited memory and my computer slows down as it needs to process more (Like I said it sucks, but it WAS free))
Kael
Deity
justin_in_bango said:
To turn tundra into anything you need a unit with the nature 3 spell, or the genesis wonder. This is typically only available to archmages and druids.
Slow computers don't cause bugs, my bad programming causes bugs
. There are a couple in 0.12, and I am sure there will be some different ones in the next version. Overall I think its been pretty stable, but I definitly appreciate people posting about errors they find so I can get it fixed.
