[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[Maarak]

In my games I almost never switch religions, but i know the ai does often. When they switch religions i think that these things must happen.
1. The special techs must be unresearched
2. All religion specific units must be destroyed.
3. All religion specific wonders must be destroyed and be buildable by other civs.
4. Other civ's of the first religion would be angered.

I already know that heros leave.

That seems a little too harsh. While I agree that there should be some additional penalty to switching religions, what you've suggested would make it unreasonable to ever switch if you've spent any significant amount of time with a paticular religion.

I'd opt for a longer period of anarchy, lasting an additional 4-5 turns perhaps.

 

[Chip56]

I'd opt for a longer period of anarchy, lasting an additional 4-5 turns perhaps.

Spirituell as trait= no anarchy

 

[Chalid]

The problem seem to be that civs in vanilla always change to the religion that is in most of their cities and the ai at the moment will not know that changing comes with penaltys. So introducing additional penaltys should wait until the SDK.

Some ideas for Conquest: Why not base the earned gold on the population. Or give continuing gold on the percentage of culture foreingn civs have in this city, or as long as a conquered city is in rebellion (i seem to remember larger cities are longer in rebellion).
If you destroy a civilization with conquest active you should get another boost.
And yes it should be medium or high upkeep.

 

[loki1232]

What if it were just
1. The special techs must be unresearched
2. All religion specific units must be destroyed.

this would slow down even a Spiritual civ, and they do make sense.

 

[TheNewSaint]

I dont know about you, but, and while I dont disagree with the religion switching, I think that rather than trying to hamper good traits, piling bonuses on the other ones is a better approach. It makes it more fun to play with really boosted stuff, In My Opinion, which is why in my Civ3 mod, rather than making buildings have both + and -, I start with everything in a hole, and as you build up, you say, wow, I really like those developed cities, they're great!

 

[TheNewSaint]

To make that more clear, I agree with loki, but I think the only major disavantages should be not having an advantage (It's much more pleasing to see +25% or BONUS!!! than -'s and whatnot...)

 

[loki1232]

Yes, it would be really nice to get bonuses for staying with one religion for a long time, but in a way they are already built into the game. Also, if we add in something like sevo's faces of god mod, staying as one religion will give you huge benefits.

However, my points about the special tech and the special units being lost is still valid. Those are less about balancing it out than about being realistis. If your human civ stops worshipping the elven god, will the elves still figh tfor you? Gimme a break.

 

[TheNewSaint]

Did I not say that I agreed with you? If not I meant to. I think that it would really piss them off. Some of them might even go rouge and attack you...

 

[TheNewSaint]

actually, what if, when switching religions, your rel spec units have a chance to either
1)Turn barbarian
2)Join another civ with their religion (better chance they switch to a civ with their religion that's at war with you...)

 

[Fragment]

Back to the mod, I'd agree that the Conquest civic needs a larger bonus than 25-75. But the trade-off between the ever increasing maintenance costs that balances out the trait could be negated by simply razing the cities you take over.

Additionally, this may work just too well together with the spiritual trait, allowing you to switch civics just before taking the city, then switching back, for the additional gold influx.

Regards.

 

[kopaladin]

Early thats quite much, but later its not.
So is there a way to increase the amount with time?

Maybe Kael could use the inflation modifier in the formula. Don't know if game mechanics give access to that variable.

Formula could be 25-75 * inflation %. that way in end game its consistent with what you'll need in your empire.

Additionally, this may work just too well together with the spiritual trait, allowing you to switch civics just before taking the city, then switching back, for the additional gold influx.

Even with spiritual you still have to wait 5 turns before swapping again

 

[loki1232]

1. Formula could be 25-75 * inflation %. that way in end game its consistent with what you'll need in your empire.

2. Even with spiritual you still have to wait 5 turns before swapping again

1. Maybe instead 50-100 * inflation but you are forced to capture the city?

2. IMO this time should be increased to stop this sort of thing. Maybe make it 10 turns?

 

[loki1232]

actually, what if, when switching religions, your rel spec units have a chance to either
1)Turn barbarian
2)Join another civ with their religion (better chance they switch to a civ with their religion that's at war with you...)

Very good idea. Heros should always have that happen to them.

What if somtimes your cities went barb as well, but it only happened if you converted to a religion that was on the other side of the spectrum. ie: Runes to OO triggers it, but Runes to Order or Ashen Veil to Fellowship doesn't trigger it.

 

[Kael]

Nice idea, but may be you have to increase the maintenance cost to medium or high and check that you have the appropiate religions in some of your cities, so you can not select Arete if there is not at least one of your cities with Runes. Otherwise don´t make sense.

I thought abou this, and in the end I decided that:

1. Polling all the cites seeing what religions are available didn't sound like a lot of fun.

2. I kinda liked the idea that in a free and open society people could pursue whatever desires they wanted, even if they didn't have the religion that normally dicated that behavior. Just because he doesn't worship the God of Nature doesn't mean Joe Bob citizen can't spend his time trying to conserve and protect nature (then go home and beat his slaves).

 

[Kael]

Thats a good idea.
Maybe allow the rel specific buildings or techs too, but not the units & wonders.

Something different:
1. What do you think of the name animal empathie for the promotion
2. Idea for a new unit: tunnelsabbers (very high attack against cities, can bombard cities, weak in defense)
3. What to you think of giving siege workshop, armory & weaponsmith a plus to production? Maybe only for unit construction.
4. Is it possibly to have wonders that give all new build units a certain promotion, not only in that city?
5. What if wonders like dragons hore give in addition every already build unit quality weapons?
Same with tower of eyes: give all existing units sentry?

Okay, Animal Empathie it is. I will add it in with the Dragons whore you suggested.

The armory and Weaponsmith don't need a boost. The Siege Workshop could use one but I don't think increased production is it.

I agree with Loki, it is easy enough to give a promotion to all existing units (Blood of Phoenix does that now), but the Horde doesn't need the boost. The Tower of Eyes.... it needs the boost but I don't think applying it to all the units is it. It will probably give some spells in phase 2.

 

[dcode147]

When is the next version of this coming out?

 

[Kael]

lol, was that the ONLY typo you noticed in that post?



My initial thought was the same, but then I thought some more about it, and that does not seem to fit with a civic named "Conquest", whereby you are expanding your Empire through conquest. You actually need to retain the cities in order for you to expand your Empire in that way. Another civic named "Slash and Burn" (or something to that effect) was proposed in this thread a ways back, and that civic had the requirement that cities be razed. I think Kael is considering it for Phase 2 implementation.

EDIT: Ok I reread your post, and it looks like you weren't advocating what I thought you were advocating. Kael, would it be possible to have the "Raze City" option turned off while the Conquest civic is in use? This would prevent players from exploiting the civic in the way Maraak indicated.

Im not to worried about about players capturing and burning cities. If they want to give up the cities, more power to them. I just like the symetry that the civic could mirror the fortunes of so many conquest based empires that came before (not that it has to).

The more valid exploit was purposfully dumping cities. You step out of a city and let an enemy take it, then you take it back for the money. This is the main reason the gold rate is as low as it is (it was initially 50-150). I tihnk I may also drop the population of the city an extra amount when a conquest civ grabs it to help prevent this.

 

[Kael]

When is the next version of this coming out?

Its actually completly out of my hands at the moment. It is scheduled for the 17th (this Friday), but it could go as early as Wednesday the 15th.

 

[Kael]

In my games I almost never switch religions, but i know the ai does often. When they switch religions i think that these things must happen.
1. The special techs must be unresearched
2. All religion specific units must be destroyed.
3. All religion specific wonders must be destroyed and be buildable by other civs.
4. Other civ's of the first religion would be angered.

I already know that heros leave.

2 reasons I don't do these things (although they make good "flavor" sense),

1. The AI wouldn't understand and would be handicapped by them.

2. It locks players into their initial religion. I want players to be able to change religions if they want to. It shouldn't be painless, but it should be punishing either. Right now I think its just about right.

 

[dcode147]

sweet! thanks dude!