[MOD] Fall from Heaven

Just wanted to say that since the changes with the last version, Fellowship of the Leaf and Runes of Kilmorph always end up being the only 2 dominant religions. As you know I always play Highlands with twice opponents as default, so it may be easier for religions to spread... however it seems too much. I always play with aggressive AI on and still it's way too easy to have right of passages (which help religion spread a lot) and very rarely the AI will declare on me.
 
I have encountered a rather weird error in my last game(s- in the process of verifying this). I play a terra map. I can load any recon unit (scout hunter beastmaster) to a ship (any ship) and drop it on the other continent or an island, but then they refuse to board the ship for the trip home (red circle). Druids on the other hand had no problem with shipping back and melee units did not have any problem either. Has anybody else seen this kind of error? (I tried Caravel, Galleon and Queen, all of them only worked once for 1 unit, race was Goblin)
 
On a whim, I played a game starting in the renaissance era. So hte game starts with tech way advanced, and it gives a few more units, two starting settlers, a worker, a camel archer. And three Baron Halfmorns :lol: . Worldbuilder revealed that the AI players all got druids. I probably won't start in another era again because it seems to pretty much disallow religion founding, but running around with three werewolves was darn funny.

BTW, exactly how many kills does it take to get a blooded werewolf up to greater werewolf? I think I've had five and still been on blooded. Just curious.
 
kzoocauchy said:
BTW, exactly how many kills does it take to get a blooded werewolf up to greater werewolf? I think I've had five and still been on blooded. Just curious.
It's not a fixed number of kills. Everytime the blooded werewolf wins a fight there is a small chance that he becomes a greater werewolf. I think Kael mentioned somewhere that it's a 5% chance but don't count on that figure.
 
Yakk said:
Very well done.

I'm in the middle of a "highland, ridge-lines, thin, small-lakes", with raging barbarians and normal gamespeed.

The barbarians are winning. There are 3 civilizations left, and the only NPC civs that have not been wiped out are the ones behind my empire.

I saw a column of barbarian troops, stacks 3 to 8 deep, marching along a road for about 5 turns... (that is on the order of ~100 barbarian troops...)

Raging barbarians is sick in this mod. =)

Impressions of the mod in general:
If you lack copper, you are pretty screwed unless you go for dwarf/elf troops. Dwarven troops are better than elven troops, because you can build cities on hills.

Archers are strong defensive units that dont require copper, and the Drown are arguably the best early game attacker and don't require copper either.

Warriors, even max-XP warriors, get destroyed by axemen. Would a shift of +1 combat strength ruin the game?
(scouts: 2, warriors: 3, dwarves/elves/hunters/horsemen: 4, axeman: 5)

It would make a high-XP warrior a match for a low-XP axeman.

Alternatively, the rareness of the iron/copper ores could be delt with by making the resources "high quality copper/iron".

Hatchetman: Strength 4
Axeman: Strength 5 (requires copper or iron)

or, give barracks +50% production of the units it builds with copper or iron.

I like the copper reliance because it forces players to adopt different strategies based on their location. If we made these changes players could always axeman rush (with more or less effeciancy) regardless of situation.

Axemen should be able to cut down forests. This gives them a toy like the dwarven mining.

That will probably be given to some of the axeman UU's (Orcish Axeman, etc) but probably left out of the default one.

The large amount of availiable +% defence in terrain is rather sick. Might I propose that forest/hill +% defence abilities grant +% attack in the same terrain?

The problem is that this would be calculated form the tile the unit is coming from. So an elven archer attacking from a forest into a desert would get the bonus, but not one attacking from a desert into a forest. Since this seems counterintuitive I left it out.

Tech in the ancient eras is agonizingly slow. I assume this generates a nice long ancient era on purpose? =)

Yeap.

Maybe the "adept" type units should be renamed "arcane". Saying a spell is an "adept" seems wierd to me, but saying a mage is "arcane" works.

This is a great idea, I'll change it.

The "must build unit factory before building unit" is interesting. It causes cities to specialize as factories of certain kinds of units (because building the factory at more than one location can be less efficient). Could this be extended somehow?

Yes, and a lot of methods have been considered. Including a full colonization style equipment making system (deer and cotten allows you to make meather vests, iron and a weaponsmith allowed you to make longswords, etc). In the end we have to find a way to combine a system that allows strategic options without needless complexity.

I suspect we won't go far from the model presented in phase 1. If we do develop something more elaborate it will probably be for a few specific units. so I wouldn't expect to see much of a change here.

How good is the AI at understanding mutually exclusive buildings? Is there a way to teach it about them?

The AI doesnt understand that buildings allow units. I had to really boost the AIWeight to get it to build them. The AIWeight does a decent job, you could also intercept the AI choose production function and add in your own logic if you wanted to have more control over it.

Dwarven Stronghold: Extra dwarf production, penalties on non-melee unit production. Bonuses for hills/mines. Bonus promotion (hill I?) for dwarves/melee?

Elven Grove: Extra elf production, penalties on non-archer unit production. Bonuses for forests/treehouses. Bonus promotion (forest I?) for elves/archers?

Human Castle: Extra horse unit production, penalties on non-melee unit production. Bonuses for planes/farms. Bonus promotion (mobility I?) for horses/melee?

I would expect to see things like this in the civ details. The elven civ would get "elven" bonuses, the dwarven civs get "dwarven" bonuses, etc. In phase 1 you tend to think of the religions as races, but they just allow requirement of a handful of racial units. In phase 2 more detailed races will be introduced that will give full sets of racial units, civ specific buildings and such.
 
ma.KaBre said:
It's not a fixed number of kills. Everytime the blooded werewolf wins a fight there is a small chance that he becomes a greater werewolf. I think Kael mentioned somewhere that it's a 5% chance but don't count on that figure.

You got it exactly right.
 
Furin said:
I have encountered a rather weird error in my last game(s- in the process of verifying this). I play a terra map. I can load any recon unit (scout hunter beastmaster) to a ship (any ship) and drop it on the other continent or an island, but then they refuse to board the ship for the trip home (red circle). Druids on the other hand had no problem with shipping back and melee units did not have any problem either. Has anybody else seen this kind of error? (I tried Caravel, Galleon and Queen, all of them only worked once for 1 unit, race was Goblin)

Let em know if you can dupe this.
 
Just riffing on some of the brainstorming ideas discussed somewhat recently.

Regarding key resources (specifically Copper and Iron): How about making Axemen and Macemen not only dependant on their resource but on another tech as well – maybe a new tech – let’s call it Military Tactics 1 and 2.

So now, to get an Axeman you not only need to research bronzeworking and have access to Copper but also research Military Tactics 1. If you do not have access to Copper, with Military Tactics 1 you can still build a spearman with a Str of 3 or 4 (using a vanilla unit you aren’t utilizing in FfH).

Along the same lines, to get a Maceman you have to research Iron working, have access to Iron and now research Military Tactics 2 as well. If you do not have access to Iron, with Military Tactics 2 you can still build a Swordsman with a Str of 6 or 7 (again, using a vanilla unit you aren’t currently using).

Now, I don’t think you keep the same bonuses of normal Spearman and Swordsmen – I think you redefine those in line with their resource rich cousins the Axeman and Maceman.

Again, I’m just riffing on ideas based on the fact that a lack of resources can really tip the balance in a game. Right now, I’m playing on a 1 Iron resource map. I got the Mines that give you 3 Iron resources and I’m absolutely dominating with my macemen (we haven’t reached Tier 3 yet). I understand there are some other options out there (Drown, Dwarves) but then you are forced into a certain relgous path – which isn’t always possible.

Regarding raging Barbarians: How about an early National Wonder like the old Great Wall WW back in the day that keeps Barbs out of your territory. (Not sure if it’s codable in CIV) Make it available early (has to come about around Yr 100 when the Barbs start to go nuts) and make it expensive so that simply having more military is a viable option as well.

Regarding Religion spreading: I agree that Fellowship of Leaves tends to dominate a 1 continent game (or Highlands game) as does Runes of Kilmorph to a lesser extent. They everywhere by the time The Order or Ashen Veil come about and OO tends to be overlooked by the AI a bunch (despite the strength of Drown).

Regarding Disease and Ashen Veil: I agree that getting Rosier diseased (as well as all your other troops) and having no way to fix the problem makes the Veil a little weak. They need a cure disease unit or something similar to fix the problem.
 
Kael said:
You got it exactly right.
I was able to spread the praised overlord's word. ;)
...
Kael said:
Furin said:
I have encountered a rather weird error in my last game(s- in the process of verifying this). I play a terra map. I can load any recon unit (scout hunter beastmaster) to a ship (any ship) and drop it on the other continent or an island, but then they refuse to board the ship for the trip home (red circle). Druids on the other hand had no problem with shipping back and melee units did not have any problem either. Has anybody else seen this kind of error? (I tried Caravel, Galleon and Queen, all of them only worked once for 1 unit, race was Goblin)
Let me know if you can dupe this. (Typo corrected goodjob: )
As far as I get it, he allready was able to dupe the problem.

[hint]@Furin
Attaching a savegame might be a good idea [/hint] ;)
 
onedreamer said:
Just wanted to say that since the changes with the last version, Fellowship of the Leaf and Runes of Kilmorph always end up being the only 2 dominant religions. As you know I always play Highlands with twice opponents as default, so it may be easier for religions to spread... however it seems too much. I always play with aggressive AI on and still it's way too easy to have right of passages (which help religion spread a lot) and very rarely the AI will declare on me.

I played a monarch game with this version and won a religeous victory with octopus overlords which is the slowest spreading religeon in terms of its calculated spread rate. So I think they all have a chance.
 
driftinj said:
Just riffing on some of the brainstorming ideas discussed somewhat recently.

Regarding key resources (specifically Copper and Iron): How about making Axemen and Macemen not only dependant on their resource but on another tech as well – maybe a new tech – let’s call it Military Tactics 1 and 2.

So now, to get an Axeman you not only need to research bronzeworking and have access to Copper but also research Military Tactics 1. If you do not have access to Copper, with Military Tactics 1 you can still build a spearman with a Str of 3 or 4 (using a vanilla unit you aren’t utilizing in FfH).

Along the same lines, to get a Maceman you have to research Iron working, have access to Iron and now research Military Tactics 2 as well. If you do not have access to Iron, with Military Tactics 2 you can still build a Swordsman with a Str of 6 or 7 (again, using a vanilla unit you aren’t currently using).

Now, I don’t think you keep the same bonuses of normal Spearman and Swordsmen – I think you redefine those in line with their resource rich cousins the Axeman and Maceman.

Again, I’m just riffing on ideas based on the fact that a lack of resources can really tip the balance in a game. Right now, I’m playing on a 1 Iron resource map. I got the Mines that give you 3 Iron resources and I’m absolutely dominating with my macemen (we haven’t reached Tier 3 yet). I understand there are some other options out there (Drown, Dwarves) but then you are forced into a certain relgous path – which isn’t always possible.

Regarding raging Barbarians: How about an early National Wonder like the old Great Wall WW back in the day that keeps Barbs out of your territory. (Not sure if it’s codable in CIV) Make it available early (has to come about around Yr 100 when the Barbs start to go nuts) and make it expensive so that simply having more military is a viable option as well.

We have a trait spec'ed called Barbarian that makes you at peace with the barbarians and reduces your research rate slightly. That will accomplish a similiar effect.

Regarding Religion spreading: I agree that Fellowship of Leaves tends to dominate a 1 continent game (or Highlands game) as does Runes of Kilmorph to a lesser extent. They everywhere by the time The Order or Ashen Veil come about and OO tends to be overlooked by the AI a bunch (despite the strength of Drown).

Regarding Disease and Ashen Veil: I agree that getting Rosier diseased (as well as all your other troops) and having no way to fix the problem makes the Veil a little weak. They need a cure disease unit or something similar to fix the problem.

I think in phase 2 we will allow veil priests to buy life 1 (the sphere that grants cure disease) on levelup. That way you can opt to have veil priests gain the ability if you are wailling to pay the price.
 
driftinj said:
Just riffing on some of the brainstorming ideas discussed somewhat recently.

Regarding key resources (specifically Copper and Iron): How about making Axemen and Macemen not only dependant on their resource but on another tech as well – maybe a new tech – let’s call it Military Tactics 1 and 2.

So now, to get an Axeman you not only need to research bronzeworking and have access to Copper but also research Military Tactics 1. If you do not have access to Copper, with Military Tactics 1 you can still build a spearman with a Str of 3 or 4 (using a vanilla unit you aren’t utilizing in FfH).

Along the same lines, to get a Maceman you have to research Iron working, have access to Iron and now research Military Tactics 2 as well. If you do not have access to Iron, with Military Tactics 2 you can still build a Swordsman with a Str of 6 or 7 (again, using a vanilla unit you aren’t currently using).

Now, I don’t think you keep the same bonuses of normal Spearman and Swordsmen – I think you redefine those in line with their resource rich cousins the Axeman and Maceman.

Again, I’m just riffing on ideas based on the fact that a lack of resources can really tip the balance in a game. Right now, I’m playing on a 1 Iron resource map. I got the Mines that give you 3 Iron resources and I’m absolutely dominating with my macemen (we haven’t reached Tier 3 yet). I understand there are some other options out there (Drown, Dwarves) but then you are forced into a certain relgous path – which isn’t always possible.

I'm heading up the new tech tree for phase two, and it's funny to see you say all this, because I've gone a similar path. (at least right now, it's always changing). There is an "organized warfare" tech that lets you build axemen. (Oops....I see that I left it also in bronzeworking by mistake, but it's not supposed to be there, spearmen are supposed to be there. ;))Organized warfare is a pre-requisite along with ironworking for a tech called "blacksmithing" which lets you build macemen. There is also an "advanced military tactics" tech that lets you build a commend post, chicken(heh) itza, gives access to various military civics, and leads to more advanced units later. I like the idea of the blacksmithing tech letting you build a slightly weaker unit without iron. I have swordsmen tenatively back in with a tech after blacksmithing, but moving them down to the same tech at their original game strength could work. They could have an upgrade later.
 
Another interesting note. The power/cost ratio of units seems relatively constant.

Warrior: 2 power
Axeman: 4 power, costs about twice as much as Warriors.
Maceman: 7 power, costs about twice as much as Axemen.

Ie, you could pump out 4 warriors for every Maceman. I wonder if this would allow a low-tech empire to warrior-pump and kill a relatively high-tech empire?

...

The name of the Barracks. Should it be called an Armory (or Weaponsmith) instead? Civ "Barrack"s carries with it alot of baggage that doesn't line up with the building's purpose in this game.

...

Second note. How to make the AI "smarter" at building the prerequisit buildings?

An empire probably wants a percentage of it's total production capable of producing any one type of unit. It also doesn't want all of it's axeman production concentrated in it's one "wonder city". If the empire has less than this, the value of a unit factory goes up.

(the expected axeman production/city and the standard deviation of axeman production should both be factored into this weight)

A second "unit factory" type in a city is less valueable than the first. A small to medium city that already has a hunting lodge doesn't need to produce a barracks.

A "unit factory" that produces better units is more valueable than a "unit factory" that doesn't. This should possibly impact that empire's "ideal percentage" of production for that unit.

"Unit factories" also have innate value (the library's +20% research, for example) that should not scale with any of these factors.

I can almost guarantee that the AI does not know how to move units to a factory city and upgrade them there. So having lots of units able to/needing to be upgraded should encourage building "unit factory"s. Either that, or be taught how to do the upgrade shuffle (which seems much harder, if doable at all).

Strangely, it is a viable player strategy to produce warriors/scouts in one city, move them to a "unit factory", and spend gold to upgrade them there. (is this cheaper than rushing units using gold?) (is this a good strategy to leave in -- allowing rich PC civ's to make up for their lack of production?)

I can help with the math. Maybe the python (know the language, don't know Civ4 yet).

...

Dwarvs mountains. Possibly allow dwarves to cross peaks and build mines there? Or even "mushroom farms" (+3 food).

...

Random idea: secret passes through mountains and guides.

Give a few primitive technologies a unique unit that can enter mountains and build "roads" there. Building the road changes the terrain type of the mountain from "peak" to "pass" and destroys the unique unit, replacing it with a 0 movement "guide" unit. The guide is a 1 capacity transport unit.

Recon units would be able to cross passes without the help of the guide. If your guide is ever killed (by enemy recon units), you cannot replace him and the pass is closed.

The unique units that open up the passes can vary in their effects.
Dwarven Deep Miner: terrain becomes a 5 hammer "deep mine".
Elven Passwatch: terrain becomes a 10 trade "secret pass".
Hillsman: terrain becomes a 4 food "high farm".

This is inspired by fantasy secret mountain passes everywhere. =)

The AI can probably be taught to at least try to use these unique units by giving them the worker AI, but only the ability to improve mountains. . .

At the least, this would make a neat mod component. =) A project!

...

PS: kick ass mod.

Did anything come of the talk of "upgrading" mines and fish nodes and the like? (I'm working my way through the thread, but 207 pages is a hell of alot of content.)
 
Furin said:
I have encountered a rather weird error in my last game(s- in the process of verifying this). I play a terra map. I can load any recon unit (scout hunter beastmaster) to a ship (any ship) and drop it on the other continent or an island, but then they refuse to board the ship for the trip home (red circle). Druids on the other hand had no problem with shipping back and melee units did not have any problem either. Has anybody else seen this kind of error? (I tried Caravel, Galleon and Queen, all of them only worked once for 1 unit, race was Goblin)

YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!
This happened to me in one game! Intended to mention it but forgot. The only way I could get my beastmaster back on a ship was to load him when both he and the ship were in a city, I couldn't get him to board the ship other than that.

Also, is it just me or do others feel that, during a game, you build the same building more than once in a single city? I'm sure I have already built my market or training camp, only to have to build it again about 400-500 turns later? Anyone else getting that or is it just me? :crazyeye:
 
AljayBoy said:
YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!
This happened to me in one game! Intended to mention it but forgot. The only way I could get my beastmaster back on a ship was to load him when both he and the ship were in a city, I couldn't get him to board the ship other than that.

Also, is it just me or do others feel that, during a game, you build the same building more than once in a single city? I'm sure I have already built my market or training camp, only to have to build it again about 400-500 turns later? Anyone else getting that or is it just me? :crazyeye:

Weird. I would actually not be to surprised by this if it happened in 1.0, but Im surprised to find it in 0.95. I changed the code controlling moves in 1.0 but it should all be the same in 0.95. You guys didnt somehow get a copy of 1.0 did you? :confused:
 
I haven't read any of the posts in this thread since 0.95 came out, so many of these may already have been mentioned and addressed. I had been meaning to continue the game I started shortly after 0.95 came out, but I haven't had the time. I thought I would post these findings here before 0.95 got replaced by 1.0.

First, a bunch of holes with fireballs--
  • Fireballs can take cities
  • Fireballs can pillage (for cash 8).
  • Fireballs should be amphibious.
  • Fireballs can be bodied by adepts to move 3.
  • Fireballs should be eliminated on victory or last movement point
  • Fireballs use roads.

-1 modifiers on buildings are ineffective. I have tracked the specific numbers for these buildings and they do not have any effect. (it's been a while since I wrote these notes, I think the gold negative modifiers work, but the research and culture ones do not. No idea what the culture imploding bug that woodelf found is. My recollection is that I've never had my culture be effected by a negative culture mod on a building in any version of FfH).

Dancing Bear requires Seafaring (?)

And personally, I think the animal buildings all give way too much culture 8). That's just my opinion though ;).
 
Belizan said:
I haven't read any of the posts in this thread since 0.95 came out, so many of these may already have been mentioned and addressed. I had been meaning to continue the game I started shortly after 0.95 came out, but I haven't had the time. I thought I would post these findings here before 0.95 got replaced by 1.0.

First, a bunch of holes with fireballs--
[*]Fireballs can take cities

Fixed in 1.0.

[*]Fireballs can pillage (for cash 8).

My theroy here was that a mage could cut a fireball at a farm and burn it down. And with a mine the fireball kinda... well.... *cough*.. okay i'll change it.

[*]Fireballs should be amphibious.

Good point, I'll add it. 1.0 also allows fireballs to travel over land and sea.

[*]Fireballs can be bodied by adepts to move 3.

K, I'll change this.

[*]Fireballs should be eliminated on victory or last movement point

They are cleaned up on victory. I never thought about making them dissapear on last move. Hmm... let me try it.

[*]Fireballs use roads.

This shouldn't be the case in 1.0.

-1 modifiers on buildings are ineffective. I have tracked the specific numbers for these buildings and they do not have any effect. (it's been a while since I wrote these notes, I think the gold negative modifiers work, but the research and culture ones do not. No idea what the culture imploding bug that woodelf found is. My recollection is that I've never had my culture be effected by a negative culture mod on a building in any version of FfH).

Yeah this is an engine problem. It will be fixed when 1.0 releases.

Dancing Bear requires Seafaring (?)

I was testing seafaring to make sure it was being applied and I kinda forgot to put it back when I was done with my tests. This is actually fixed with patch e (in the first post).

Thanks for stopping by Belizan! Great feedback, Im always glad to hear from you.
 
AljayBoy said:
Also, is it just me or do others feel that, during a game, you build the same building more than once in a single city? I'm sure I have already built my market or training camp, only to have to build it again about 400-500 turns later? Anyone else getting that or is it just me? :crazyeye:

Perhaps there should be different settlers with every era (which start cities off with a couple of buildings), or perhaps some buildings should have the "can only be built in cities built before era XX" option?
 
[*]Fireballs can be bodied by adepts to move 3.

K, I'll change this.

Heh, this was one of my favorite tactics, good for breaking those city garrison3 defended cities. The hasted fireballs also did more collateral damage and had a better chance of winning their fights. Otherwise, some cities might be impossible to take, as the units inside will slaughter everything you send at them, and then heal to full next turn, even with the defenses knocked down to 0%. Rare, but it does happen.


[*]Fireballs should be eliminated on victory or last movement point

They are cleaned up on victory. I never thought about making them dissapear on last move. Hmm... let me try it.

They should also be eliminated after they bombard as well. Bombarding with them is annoying because they don't have enough movement left to attack, so you have to either delete or sentry them, knowing they'll be gone once you hit enter.
 
This is probably one of, if not the best, mod yet. I just want to give kudos to all those who put work into this. This must have taken forever. Thanks.
 
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