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Mod Idea thread

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by Drakle, Sep 19, 2020.

  1. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    No need to be sorry. As a French, I understand the instinctive desire to scream "Vive le Québec libre !" or "Je vous ai compris !" ou même dire "Mais Paris libéré !" dès que poss... ah zut je parle français maintenant.

    The AI already tends to go for forward settling if good conditions are united : if we make De Gaulle AI very competitive and willing to expand, then I think it will de facto synergize with the UA.

    As for the kit itself, I don't think there would be a problem, mostly thanks to the advancements to tactical and diplomatic AI of these last years (for example in the AI's handling of irregular troops). The only two things where I don't know if the AI is competent is the ranged attack for the Char B1 and the ability to use the "Insider" promotion from the Quai d'Orsay efficiently (recognizing that it must first send a spy in a CS, and then focus its diplomatic units on it).

    This, however, I don't know if the AI would be quite capable of acknowledging it. Don't mean that it isn't interesting though.
     
  2. SolutionIt

    SolutionIt Chieftain

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    It'd be interesting if anyone went through the effort of adapting the Australian Federation of Henry Parkes which is part of the Colonialist Legacies. Feels weird not including an entire continent in Civ V or at least some of the Aboriginal Tribes especially if you consider Uluru is in the game.
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  4. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    We had a discussion on that matter a while back pineappledan if I remember well. The main difficulty I had personnaly when discussing the possibility of making an Aboriginal Australian civ is first and foremost the inability to clearly establish what civilization we want without risking oversimplification (we are talking of an entire cultural group with very diverse caracteristics). We need the help of someone with good knowledge on the matter.

    Personally, what I had in mind in term of kit was something like this :
    • Civ focused on exploration, with the ability to see all resources from the get go (maybe with a limiting factor to how they can improve these resources so that they aren't op in the early game when obtaining aluminium and uranium tiles)
    • Civ which prefers unimproved tiles (pineappledan's just begun exploring that facet in his "new beliefs mod")
    • Maybe a civ that has good bonus around natural wonders ? We could transfer the Iroquois combat bonus to them.
     
  5. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Another project, however this time much less defined, would be a mod for the Bantu civilization.

    I know that it isn't a well-defined civilization and more of a cultural group, but first I think the Celts (however controversial the existence of this civ in the game can be) are a good example of what a "cradle civilization" can be, and second there are a lot of common ground between the numerous people descending from this ancestral civ (language first comes to mind, but also religious practices), with at the same time numerous divergences often due to the adaptation to a variety of different terrains and political situations.

    The main focus of their kit would be expansion and adaptation to terrain. The idea would be to make so that, wherever they go, they get specific bonus depending on the type of terrain they settle, with these bonus only affecting those cities, and so the empire would grow more and more heterogeneous. In exchange, the civ doesn't have unique components, so the uniqueness of the civ stems from your settlements themselves.

    Spoiler Bantu civilization :

    Bantu - Leader TBD

    UA - The Great Migration

    Settler production doesn't follow the same restrictions as for other civilizations (pop. requirement and cost, production increase, growth stopped). Whenever a city is built, it gains a number of traits depending on the terrain within one tile of the city, which provide specific bonus.


    These bonus are a combination of two traits at maximum : one trait based on terrain type, and one trait based on terrain feature. Each trait provides a bonus to the city, and a unique promotion to the units produced by it.
    - Traits based on terrain type (verification of the conditions in that order) :
    • Hutu/Abahutu (requires a majority of Lake or Grassland tiles) : +1 :c5production: Production and :c5gold: Gold to Lake tiles, +1 :c5food: Food to improved resource tiles ; units gain the "Hutu" promotion (+5 HP when healing ; +15 % :c5strength: CS when fighting on an improved resource tile);
    • Nguni (requires a majority of Plains or Desert tiles) : 15% of :c5food: Food is carried over when a new citizen is born in city and -25 % Culture/Gold cost to acquire new tiles ; units gain the "Nguni" promotion (+20 % bonus :c5strength: CS from flank attacks ; +33 % xp);
    • Chewa (requires a majority of Toundra, Snow or Mountain tiles) : +5 :c5strength: CS to city and gain a small amount of :c5food: Food, :c5faith: Faith and :c5culture: Culture whenever a unit is built in the city ; units gain the "Chewa" promotion (+20 % :c5strength: CS against ranged attacks ; -5 % :c5strength: CS to adjacent enemy units, cumulative).
    - Traits based on terrain feature (verification of the conditions in that order) :
    • Shona/Karanga (requires a majority of Hill tiles) : gain a small amount of :c5science: Science whenever a building is built in the city and +5 % :c5gold: Gold from :c5trade: City Connexions on Empire ; units gain the "Karanga" promotion (+3 CS :c5strength: when fighting on a Fort, Citadel or City tile);
    • Kongo (requires a majority of coastal or sea-adjacent tiles) : +2 :c5gold: Gold and science for each :trade: TR from the city and :c5unhappy: Needs modifier reduced by 10 % ; units gain the "Kongo" promotion (+1 :c5moves: MP and ignore ZOC when starting turn next to or on a Coast tile);
    • Mongo (requires a majority of forest/jungles tiles) : +2 :c5production: Production and +1 :c5happy: Happiness for every 8 :c5citizen: Citizens in city ; units gain the "Mongo" promotion (+25% improvement rate ; +1 Visibility Range and heals 5 HP at the end of turn whatever the action);
    • Luba (requires a majority of featureless or fresh-water tiles) : gains :c5culture: Culture and :c5science: Science whenever a :c5greatperson: GP is born and 2 Specialists don't cause :c5unhappy: Unhappiness in the City ; units gain the "Luba" promotion (ignores Plague effects and +30 % :c5strength: CS when fighing on a GP Improvement).


    Well, it's just a big idea I'm throwing here without really knowing what is actually feasible. I just wanted to see what could be done for a cradle civilization without unique component.
    In any case, the risk of oversimplification from my part is high here, so don't hesitate to criticize.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  6. Drakle

    Drakle King

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    Australian aborigines wouldn't be a civilisation by Civ5 standards. They don't have the first tech, Agriculture. It was hunter gatherer, and some very limited trade in the far north, and like one aquaculture complex in one small area. They would be represented in game as barbarians. Like those islands you find in the exploration phase where no civs spawned, and so are free real estate.


    As for colonist legacies, it is a stupid kit. Puppet cities is dumb. Australia started out as seperate colonies, but that is nothing new. Same thing happened with the US (13 colonies) and Canada. Australia has tourism, but it isn't cultural dominate, it is just beaches and natural sites. And no one gives a fudge about our Prime Ministers, let alone considers them our great writers. Politicans always write books, and the main people who read them are other politicans and journalists. We barely even teach the PMs in school, it is mostly just convicts, ANZACs, WW2, particularly the Japanese, and a bit of Whitlam. I could name more US Presidents, then Australian PMs, even before becoming politically and historically engaged.

    I expect most other potential kit would be something stupid as well, representing Australia as if it is just a few tourist spots, mixed with Crocodile Dundee.
     
  7. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    I think this approach of TopHatPaladin could be a basis for work

    https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/The_Anangu_(Tjilpi)

    and in addition I find the art very beautiful.
     
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  8. KaoticKanine

    KaoticKanine Chieftain

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    So I had been deliberating on my idea for a "Great Law of Peace" UA to potentially replace Hiawatha's, and I think I finally came up with a solid concept.

    Great Law of Peace UA

    • Diplomatic Actions provide doubled Yields. (This counts for both :c5influence: Influence AND :c5gold: Gold from the GM)
    • Gain 1 Delegate for every 5 :c5citizen: Population per City.
    • +3 :c5food: Food from Forests, and +2 :c5food: from Jungles, Camps, and Plantations.
    Was back-and-forth on whether the third component ought to have been either the increased Food or if it should have been "Gains Yields when unlocking Policies". But I figure the latter was redundant with 'Holy Law' anyway, and Food is more important with this UA thanks to the 1 Delegate per 5 pop per city. Which in itself is based on the Grand Council of Six Nations, with the "per city" detail not only keeping this from being grossly OP but done in the sense of each city representing a different Iroquois nation (what with the capital city being Onondaga).

    Though I think the UA granting Culture and Golden Age Points on allying with City-States would be more accurate, as the Great Law of Peace defines the Iroquois culture and brought about a veritable golden age for the nations that make up the Iroquois. But, of course, that's already Germany's UA. And I'm also compelled to include the "Seventh Generation Principle" (that is, every decision must consider how it would impact the next seven generations), but the closest equivalent I can think of at the moment is "gain a lot of Science on unlocking policies".

    In any case, now to just decide on the alternative Iroquois leader who would take up "Great Warpath". Ideally with a new component that replaces the "20% CS near Natural Wonders" (just cause that is WAY too situational), but I guess it'd depend on who that leader would be. Like, if it's an Iroquois leader during the Beaver Wars, then definitely something involving combat and resources. If during the American Revolution... Something involving Defensive Pacts, I guess...?
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I had an idea for a simpler interception system a while back. Something as to the following:

    1) Air Defense does damage to aircraft as normal. However, the amount also reduces the amount of damage the unit takes from air attacks. Example: A unit with 20 Air Defense deals 20 damage to an aircraft attacking it, and takes -20% damage from air attacks.
    2) Interception adds X amount of air defense (and is increased by promotions). Effect of multiple interceptors stack.
    3) Airsweeps reduce the Air Defense of all units within 2 of the airsweep target by Y....which is increased by Dog Fighting promotions.

    So that's it. Interception is just a layer of defense to be added and striped away. No percentage changes, no blocked attacks, and no secret interceptors in the fog of war that you cannot see and then get your plane sniped on. You just look at the unit, and you see its Air Defense. You can choose to airsweep to lower it, or you just attack and take the pain. Simple and easy. It also means that jet fighters can be used later in the game to reduce some of the very high air defense the base units have...so it gives fighters a new niche.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
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  10. KaoticKanine

    KaoticKanine Chieftain

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    Sorry to make a post about this subject so soon after the last one (honestly, I would delete that one but I worry if that's taboo), but I just came up with a new version of my "Great Law of Peace" UA that I think is much better; both for gameplay and more accurate to life.

    New Iroquois (Hiawatha) UA - Great Law of Peace
    • Diplomatic Actions gain double the normal :c5influence: Influence to :c5citystate: City-States connected by a :trade: Trade Route from owned Cities. (Alternatively, if that's too powerful, Diplomatic Actions just give an increased amount of :c5influence: Influence than normal)
    • :c5citystate: City-State Allies give a Wampum Beads Luxury Resource.
    • +1 Additional Delegate in World Congress for each 7 :c5citizen: Population per City.
    Wampum Beads
    • Luxury Resource
    • Given by any :c5citystate: City-State on allying with them (handled exactly like Mercantile CS luxuries, just done by all CS types and exclusive to the Iroquois)
    • Monopoly Bonus: +20% :c5food: Growth to Cities
    So with this, the Iroquois under Hiawatha gain a focused gameplan: send Trade Routes to City-States (unless the latter option is done), then send over their Diplomatic Units to garner more Influence than normal, and become Allies with as many City-States as available to gain Wampum Beads: not only great for keeping your population happy and trading with other Civs but to use that +20% Growth to get more population in each City, with which to earn more delegates to dominate the World Congress. And this would still synergize with their UB since the Longhouse provides additional Food and Production to Forests/Jungles, which the Iroquois are guaranteed to be surrounded by; providing the civ greater production with which to pump out Diplomatic Units, and providing Food with which to grow that population for the delegates and maintain diplomacy specialists to pump out GD's.

    Spoiler Note on Wampum Beads :
    Wampum Beads are clam/snail shells fashioned into string beads, and used by many Eastern woodlands tribes for storytelling, ceremonial gifts, and recording important information. Among the Iroquois specifically, Wampum Beads were used as formal affirmations of cooperation/friendships between groups, invitations for meetings, denote a person's credentials and/or authority... Really, a lot of uses that are too many to list. But the cooperation bit is most relevant, as this is why I have it so City-States give Wampum Beads on becoming allies to the Iroquois. Of course, logically, Wampum Beads MB should provide Culture instead of Growth, since they are not food and have more cultural significance. But for the sake of synergy with the UA, I have them giving Growth (we can say that, since the beads promote peace, they allow the Iroquois citizens to be more focused on, uh, making lives rather than taking them).
     
  11. Drakle

    Drakle King

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    Any number of extra delegates is kind of game breaking, because it is easy to leverage into even more delegates, and start a runaway diplomatic train. Austrian marriages, or multiple civs following a super spreaders religion, means a early world religion resolution, which gives delegates. Then you can start sanctioning your competition, and forcing city states into your sphere.

    Being very low population targets, not even a alliance and a lump sum of gold is just broken. Even if it only happened, once, instead of every 5-7 population. Which could be 3-4 votes, per city, without even being particularly growth focused.
     
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  12. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    I agree : since delegates constitute a form of bonus that is, in its nature, not very granular (unlike other bonus, which usually are either composed of gradual combat bonus or a sum of yields, both being easier to balance), any bonus that gives delegate must either be quite small or be vulnerable to a good counter. If not, then it becomes far too easy to steamroll the diplomatic game, which in the long term trivializes the whole experience.

    Look at all the ways VP currently offers to gain more delegates :
    • Embassies requires investing in specialists or wonders to obtain GDiplomats and are vulnerable to conquest
    • CS influence requires investing in diplomatic units (so gold and production) or quests and are vulnerable to blockades, election riggings, coups, conquest and GDiplomats
    • Religious authority requires an investment in pressure or religious unit beliefs to have an actual effect, and a lot of religious conversion
    • the Austrian UA requires a steady alliance with a CS and is vulnerable to the same elements as basic CS influence (except maybe for blockades)
    • the German UA requires multiple CS alliance : it is less vulnerable to conquest that Austria (since you generaly have some influence in a greater number of CS) but requires a heavier investment in diplomatic units
    • the ideology national wonders that offer delegates require you to follow a specific style of play to be really efficient
    • WC decisions that give delegates often lead to strong diplomatic tension (world ideology) or opposition (world religion)
    • etc etc
    Usually, the best way to gain delegates in the long run is to pick a bit of each type of delegate source, and then incrementally increase or reinforce your position in the WC (so that you aren't too vulnerable to a runaway warmonger or a "decolonisation" decision).

    In the case of what you propose, the only thing to do to gain delegates is to grow your cities. I agree that growing your cities a lot offer its own challenges in term of unhappiness, but in the end it's far from difficult to accumulate an enormous amount of delegates this way. Furthermore, the only counter to pure growth turtling is conquest, which isn't always easy against a defensive-minded strategy when you're not investing heavily in your military.

    In addition, the idea to increase the amount of influence gained from diplomatic missions must once again be treated carefully : each wonder, belief and policy that offers that kind of bonus don't go further than +10 influence (except the policy that is explicitely dedicated to that). Thus, such a heavy influence bonus must usually once again have a difficult condition (which having a TR with the CS isn't) or limitations (for example, in the case of the Charles de Gaulle mod I talked about, it is behind a very late unique national wonder, at a time when other players have a lot of means to offer good counters). What you propose is in the UA, thus accessible immedialty : it's far too easy to ally all CS you meet during the first half of the game with that kind of bonus.

    However, I understand the idea of a more diplomacy-focused Iroquois (hence why we added a diplomatic UC for the civ in the 4UC mod). Personally, I would go more toward using the previous "CS annexation" playstyle the Mongols once had (symbolizing the integration of new people into the confederation), but in a pacific way (so a mix between the ancient Mongol UA and the Austrian UA).

    Spoiler Example :

    Great Law of Peace

    If a :c5citystate: City-State is allied to you, is :c5trade: connected to your Capital and you've completed four or more :c5influence: Quests for it, you can annex (not puppet) it for free. If you do, the city gains a free Courthouse, enters a long WLTKD and you gain a bonus related to the type of CS annexed. +1 Delegate for each Embassy within your territory.


    The problem with the previous Mongol UA was that, after annexing a CS, your military power increased even more, and so tributing and annexing other CS was easy, which would lead to runaway situations given how each CS gained would also give a lot of yields.

    In this case, the advantage is that each CS annexed requires a heavy investment (influence, infrastructure, quests), so it's more balanced. I didn't give a direct +1 delegate per CS annexed this way (because it would be too similar to what Austria already does), but the bonus delegate for each embassy compensate this and also makes the UA a good way to counter other civs that put Embassies everywhere : Embassies normally do nothing when in an annexed CS's territory, but in your case it is still useful.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
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  13. KaoticKanine

    KaoticKanine Chieftain

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    You two bring up very good points ^^; The approach I was going for with my UA was for the Iroquois to be the "champions" of the World Congress, since each of the "Diplomacy Civs" has a unique strength with City-States; Siam gets more Yields from them, Greece's Influence decays slowly while recovering faster, Germany gets specific Yields from CS' (and an extra delegate per 3 Allies), and Austria flat out marries them to be permanent allies. So the Iroquois, with their complex council irl, would take greater advantage of the World Council, and get a boost to Diplomatic Actions to help with that. But I now see that my attempt is extremely OP...

    So, in light of that, I really love your take on a "Great Law of Peace UA", Hinin! Having City-State Allies be considered "member" of the Iroquois League is something I contemplated but couldn't figure out. Having it be a peaceful version of Mongolia's old UA, however, works out great (and I always loved that part of the Mongol UA)! And incidentally, the City Connection requirement keeps it from being anti-synergistic with the Sachem's Council UNW, since then the Iroquois can simply build Embassies in City-States they can't hope to make City Connections with and allow their rivals to build Embassies with City-State neighbors; only to then integrate that City-State into the league and gain an extra delegate from that embassy.
     
  14. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Well I simply hope we didn't sound too harsh in our criticism (it's because we care). Basically I think the problem with your approach is that the WC is a victory defining element of the game : a civ who excell in it won't simply gain some advantages here and there, it will simply end the game as soon as possible.

    I'm happy you like what I proposed to you. Keep in mind that if we create such a UA, then the current UCs of the Iroquois cannot be kept : the Mohawk warrior without the Woodsman promotion is just a very weak unit for example.

    One solution could be to axe the "+1 Delegate from Embassies in your territory" from the UA and put it on one of the UCs (for example the Sachem's Council in exchange of another bonus) and still preserve the "Military land units start with the Woodsman promotion" from Hiawatha's UA.

    All that said, I think it's modmod territory. Most people are happy with the current version of the Iroquois in base VP.
     
  15. KaoticKanine

    KaoticKanine Chieftain

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    Nah, you're good lol I prefer "brutal honesty" to kind lies. The approach I was going for was unbalanced in the worst way, so that needed to be said.

    I mean, seeing how this idea of ours can only exist as a modmod lol Why not just adjust the Mohawk Warriors to have the Woodsman promotion alongside that +33% CS in Forest/Jungle? Although, I suppose all Units having Woodsman would be desired anyway, since Woodsman applies to rough terrain in general IIRC, which can be useful for, say, saving City-States from barbarian hordes.

    And yeah, I'm aware of that. Just that I personally dislike the Iroquois' current UA because it gears them towards warfare and domination, which couldn't be more opposed to not only the Iroquois' foundation but to Hiawatha himself. It'd be like having the Zulu's UA gear them towards peace and diplomacy, with Shaka himself being a peace activist. And being a bit less dependent on Forest/Jungle to be remotely effective would be nice. Like, I managed to win an Inca game with only the capital being surrounded by Hills and Mountains, whereas I feel the Iroquois cannot win without a wide stretch of Forest and Jungle. And the whole "Forests/Jungles form City Connections" is just impractical compared to Carthage's thing, where the only requirement is to settle on the coast.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
  16. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    A solution here could be to give Hiawatha this peaceful version of the Iroquois civ, while making a more warlike figure (for example Logan, although his violence was more a reaction to the Yellow Creek Massacre) gain the base VP UA : pineappledan already did something like this for the Macedon mod.

    That said, the Iroquois, despite their laws and foundation, never seemed a particularly peaceful people when compared to the other First Nations when you read about their relations with other FNations and white settlers : conflicts seem to emerge from both sides each time, and the Iroquois are particularly famous where I live for their cruel torture methods (in order to frighten their opponents). It doesn't diminish their accomplishments though.
    Unfortunately, most of these ideas come from unreliable sources. Do you have some elements on that matter, @pineappledan, despite the fact that they are on the opposite side of the continent ?
     
  17. KaoticKanine

    KaoticKanine Chieftain

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    That's actually something Tekamthi, pineappledan, and I thought up in the previous page lol Change Hiawatha's UA to "Great Law of Peace" and give "Great Warpath" to an Iroquois leader during colonial times. With me personally wanting to change that "increased CS near Natural Wonders" to something else, just cause it's too situational (for a civ whose kit is already heavily situational). But in any case, that is certainly an idea we settled on.

    I mean, that is very true... But I think the thing to consider is that those records of the Iroquois were not only made primarily by rivals and enemies (making them unreliable sources, as you admit), but were also made during colonial times; an era chock full of cruelty from all parties (mainly Europeans towards the indigenous Americans, but I digress). In any case, though, I feel that a civ's UA should reflect a civilization's most famous attribute; Aztecs have their human sacrificing, the Inca being able to walk, build roads, and settle cities atop mountains (normally inhospitable terrain), England has her advanced spies and powerful navy, Mongolia likewise having powerful calvary and abusing their fearsome reputation to cow other civilizations into submission. While the Iroquois may have started off most famous for their brutal warfare, they have become more recognized for being a long-lasting and successful confederate state; a form of multi-national union that Benjamin Franklin himself remarked "would never have been thought up in Europe", and would go on to inspire the United States of America.
     
  18. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    I agree with the project. Plus, I think the Natural Wonder combat bonus could be given to another custom civ (I'm thinking an Australian aboriginal civ for example).

    The main problem I see with the version of the UA I proposed is how to count quest successes in order to allow annexation. Should we put a counting system for each CS, or create a specific strategic resource gained when completing quests and which later allows annexation of allied and connected CS ?

    The question here is how much tensions there already was in the region before the Europeans' arrival. For example, we know the wars the Hurons and Iroquois waged against each other, but did it begin before or after the XVIIth century ? But that's a detail, as you said, so I won't go further on a thread that isn't about that kind of discussion (although one interesting element about the civ is how menacing and ominous the Iroquois war theme is : I think their reputation of cruelty could be the explanation here).
     
  19. KaoticKanine

    KaoticKanine Chieftain

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    Couldn't agree more! The Aboriginal Australians have an actual basis for such a component in the form of Uluru. The closest the Iroquois have to a Natural Wonder is Niagara Falls, but it's not so significant for them otherwise (and not even in this game).
    Definitely that one! We can have Wampum Beads be that strategic resource that is awarded on completing City-State quests! And thus, the UA could go like this:
    Spoiler Great Law of Peace UA :
    If a :c5citystate: City-State is allied to you, is :c5trade: connected to your Capital and you have 4+ Wampum Beads Strategic Resource (awarded on completing City-State Quests), you can annex it for free. If you do, the city gains a free Courthouse, enters a long WLTKD, and you gain a bonus related to the type of CS annexed. +1 Delegate for each Embassy within your territory.

    A few things I worry about this UA, though: would the average game allow frequent enough quests for the Iroquois to make substantial use of this UA? And I worry the :c5trade: Capital Connection condition might be too difficult to accomplish. Like, at best, the Iroquois could be bordered by two clusters of three City-States. But at most, would spawn with two close CS neighbors with all others being very far and/or on islands. And indeed, assuming the Lighthouse doesn't create :c5trade: City Connections with City-States, the Iroquois are virtually useless in maps that place City-States on individual islands.

    In any case, to take a break from the Iroquois talk (very sorry about that guys), I came up with a potential inclusion for @pineappledan 's "Hero Unit" mod idea: Dashrath Manjhi. Assuming it's possible to program the ability to carve out a mountain into a flatland tile (complete with Road).
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
  20. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    Graphics won't update until you reload the game.
     

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