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[MOD] Medieval: Conquests

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Medieval: Conquests' started by Kailric, Jan 9, 2011.

  1. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Well, all those bonuses would make for more Gold and more Gold = better stronger army, that is what I meant. There is already code setup so that you can require FF points for Inventions, this just isn't setup in M:C. But you are correct in that Traits/Civics/Inventions/FoundingFathers work basically the same with bonuses and such. As a matter of fact, for M:C if an Invention and a FF gave similar bonuses I cut the FF bonus in half and gave the other half to the Invention :D
     
  2. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    We shouldn't merge inventions and FF. While they look similar at first glance, they aren't. They affect totally different aspects of the game. On top of that inventions are player based while FF are team based. This mean that two players in a team share FF, but they can keep inventions from each other if they like. Also inventions can be traded while FF can't.
     
  3. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    I agree with Nightingale; but if you do want game effects that can be applied to either Techs or Civics or FFs, a perfect place to put them is in Civ4TraitInfos.xml. This allows the effect to be applied by a Tech or Civic via CivicInfos <AllowsTraits> , or by a FF applying a trait effect, or by a Leader Trait itself if you want. Like PromotionInfos.xml, TraitInfos.xml is the Swiss Army Knife of XML files :king::p:cool:
     
  4. ethernidee

    ethernidee Chieftain

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    Hi to all! Guys, I found optimized for modern PCs original Colonization 1994 with full soundtrack.
    dfiles.ru/files/zhvhc50rt
    letitbit.net/download/32258.3ee13e55cf80f8a204fa215c02dd/Colonization-GOG.rar.html

    Just a few notes on it:
    -) almost perfect balance.
    -) game is dynamic (roads can be build in two turns, colonies can be abandoned, dragoons move 4 plots, etc.).
    -) AI silently join FFs, player does it too, no competition.
    -) Indians are aggressive power.

    Could anyone please point me out how to make braves to behave like in colonization 1994? They should not dance around the city, the should massively attack. Currently they are cowards because of no distinction between full-value AI (nation, power) and native AI. It means that braves surround the town and move from plot to plot without attacks.
     
  5. ethernidee

    ethernidee Chieftain

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    I will try to switch on "Agressive AI" option then.
     
  6. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Colonization-GOG.rar looks surprisingly much like it could be from Good Old Games.
    http://www.gog.com/game/sid_meiers_colonization
    GOG uses dosbox and other similar technologies to sell old games in a package, which works often flawlessly on modern systems.

    It is completely off topic for this thread as it has nothing to do with our modding. Also I have no idea what to answer to the question. If you want to change AI behavior in CMC, then you are more than welcome, but modding other games isn't really what this is about ;)
     
  7. ethernidee

    ethernidee Chieftain

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    We played a game with brother on the hardest level against 10 AI on tiny map. aggressive AI is on. Most FFs are useless, the one which is extremely important (-50% tools for archers, skirmishers, etc) is the most cheap and was taken by AI early. AI is totally weak. One archer burns villages one by one without any resistance. It's because AI workers use tools, while tools in the mod are really weapons. Without tools towns cannot organize defense.
    Currently only one AI is defending his town with 2 archers.
     
  8. PatriotNorwood

    PatriotNorwood Howdy!

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    Sorry, but I am posting here mainly just to subscribe to this thread.:rolleyes: Keep up the good work! :)
     
  9. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    There is "Thread Tools" in the top right. Clicking that one will bring up a menu where "subscribe" is one of the options. It took me a while before I noticed as well ;)
     
  10. PatriotNorwood

    PatriotNorwood Howdy!

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    Ah I see, well thank you. :)
     
  11. Axis Kast

    Axis Kast Chieftain

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    What about a steward or reeve? Not quite a specialist, but superior to a peasant.

    Why “wily trader”? Why not simply “tradesman” or “itinerant merchant”?

    Some thoughts on veterancy. Could you have a linear progression? Let’s say, from least effective to most effective: untrained, seasoned, serjeant, comitatus, man-at-arms, knight?

    In terms of military professions, I’d offer the following: ranged skirmisher (sling/javelin/dart), skirmisher (sword and buckler), light infantry, medium infantry, heavy infantry, archer, longbowman, crossbowman, mounted archer, light horse, heavy horse, and siege engineer.

    Thoughts on resources. Have you thought to include any of the following? Wax, honey, cinnamon, cloves, tin, copper, hemp, rope, and fruit?
     
  12. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Hello axis.

    There are already several types of 'non-specialist' specialists, these are mostly at the moment generated from luxury food, (some civics do change the normal food 'birth' as well) but we also have talked several times about reintroducing the 'journeyman' concept where a peasant can gain experience and become a non-specialist specialist who is just a bit better.

    We have also talked about a much more in depth system of non-military promotions, education and experience gaining.

    "Why &#8220;wily trader&#8221;? Why not simply &#8220;tradesman&#8221; or &#8220;itinerant merchant&#8221;?"

    You realise 'itinerant merchant' is longer and less simple than 'wily trader', so the question for you is why not 'Wily Trader'? :D

    Veterancy:
    We do already have some veterancy in the game. (although we are planning a major overhaul of combat/military)
    But what we currently have is untrained, trained, and I think it is 'honoured'.
    Trained troops have access to several professions that untrained do not (for example archer and longbowman) a unit can only become a knight if they are honoured and usually only Nobles recieve it under certain civics, but I think it can also been gained through combat. (I forget exactly the nuance of the system it has been a while since I played)

    Military Professions:
    We do more or less already have all of those. Horse archer I think we might not have at the moment (not 100% sure) but the mongols are growing in presence within the talk and design, so if not it will be soon I am sure.
    I don't know if we have a ranged skirmisher, at the moment we have armed peasants and spearman(infantry? I forget the name) which are the entry level soldiers, then archer is the entry level trained soldier (equipped using tools rather than weapons).

    We have skirmisher and heavy skirmisher.
    We have swordsman and pikeman (which could be classed as the medium and heavy infantry)
    We have horseman and heavy horseman, Knight and Heavy Knight (we are also talking about the idea of horse armour/armoured horse as an equipment resource)
    We already have archer, Longbowman and Crossbowman.
    We have 2 kinds of catapult (we do talk on and off about moving things like this from a built vehicle to an equipped profession to require a pop unit to take it in the field so that could be the siege engineer)
    Each of our military units also have sub divisions for armour type and equipment type (weapons or tools)
    So we actually, as I said at the beginning, already have more or less everything you suggested, and probably more than twice that.


    Resources:
    Yes, many if not all of those have been considered, in various forms and functions. Some you could say already 'exist' in a 'clumped form' as we have spices(cinnamon, cloves) Luxury food/food (honey, fruit, we have also talked about the idea of apiaries creating wax and or honey)
    We have Ore (Tin, Copper, we have also talked about these being bonus resources, and also a system of getting special benefits when you control different kinds of bonus resources in World History Mod discussions, I put forward the idea of ore being smelted into various metals for various uses, but that was stretching across a much wider time period and not necessarily as useful for Medieval only)
    We have also discussed rope (primarily in relation to a ship building resource).
    One thing with adding more yields, is figuring out a good purpose for the yield, right now most yields are only there to make money, and a lot of the time you only need 1 or 2 to make money, so there needs to be a game mechanic reason for something more to exist.
    We have loads of yield ideas and suggestions that we rattle out every now and then, the hard part is finding the reason (game play wise) to bother putting them in at all.
    What will motivate the player to actually build them. (we have talked about making markets more susceptible to flux, and thus diversification will be needed to keep up your trade economy, but we already have several things that can be diversified, so would more diversification add much more game play? That is the current debate.)

    So as you can see most of what you suggest is actually already in game, (that which isn't is more or less planned in some form or other) the hard part with this is not so much coming up with historical stuff, but actually the game play around that historical detail to give a reason to add it in.

    Then also the time and effort it takes to add the stuff in! :)
    Read around some of the sections though and you will get a sense of the sort of things that are planned/coming or being tested.
     
  13. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    About adding yields:
    Right now to add a yield, it has to be added in no less than 3 XML files and then the C++ code in the DLL needs to be updated as well to be aware of it. That is just to make it exist. Next is providing something it can be used for and how the AI should treat it. This mean adding more yields is way too complex. I have a plan to make it possible to add more yields by simply adding it to a single XML file and then the DLL should auto configure the rest to make it work as intended. However it isn't an overnight job and I'm not working on it at the moment (CivEffects has higher priority).

    Having said that, adding yields isn't impossible and can be done if we really want to. Also it never hurts to plan ahead. Before adding a yield, it should be decided what it should be used for and so on. For instance why would you want to produce honey? Is it just something you can sell or would you want to produce it for other purposes as well?

    About wax. Didn't we talk about wax and candle production at some point?
     
  14. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Yes, we also talked about wax for boat 'water proofing' and stuff like that.
     
  15. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    First off, thanks for stoping in Axis and giving some suggestions. We have many visitors but few that take the time to post.

    I proposed an idea (I think I did) about the Peasantry voting for a Reeve as this was how they did it historically. The Reeve was the spokesman for the peasantry as well as coordinating all the plots and such. So, after a certain village size Villagers could do this. Perhaps the Peasant with the most Promotions or just a random one in case of ties. Or perhaps each turn they try to vote a Reeve but only when their is not a tie is one elected. This would be a gameplay feature to encourage you to Improve your Peasants and move learned Peasants around to your villages in the hopes they are elected as Reeves.

    The Reeve then becomes tied to that village and is the Peasant who always has to stay. Or perhaps they make that Village their Home and can then only ever join that Village. Perhaps also only being able to work in the fields or in the Townhall, with a slight bonus to Fealty. Reeves could give a bonus to other Peasants, Serfs, and Slaves. Perhaps only certain Civics allow Reeves and their Bonuses.

    Stewards... we have the Profession in the game as Townhall workers are called Stewards. And your Nobles make the best Steward so they technically are in the mod.

    Well, I was attempting to stick with the two word formula of Expert This or Master That. So, I went a step further and changed the adjective. I wouldn't mind calling him an Expert Tradesman though.

    Lib did an excellent job of explaining our current implementation and our expectations. We have planned to add a whole means to train units in Barracks and such with a new YIELD_TRAINING. The best Leaders didn't wait till combat to train their units they trained them before hand. This option will cost the Player in time and money but your Military will benefit from this. History has shown that a well trained troop is superior to numbers. The AI will be "trained" to use this so human players will not be at an advantage.

    As Lib and Night pointed out we have many yields we are considering, they just need an in game purpose other than to be sold for cash perhaps. We have plans to add new Yield types for the Carpenter profession, besides just being stuck with Hammer Production consuming Wood, we could have Hammer Production consuming Wood, Tools, Wax, and Rope to produce a Ship, the requirements changing based on what is being produced. This would open up all kinds of reasons for new Yields. Also, we can add new Trade Route Screens to add new Yields for profits, when the older ones dry up.
     
  16. Axis Kast

    Axis Kast Chieftain

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    Thanks very much for the prompt, detailed, and enthusiastic reply, Lib! &#61514;

    My sense would be that the steward is an administrator rather than a producer of goods. The closest parallel in classic Colonization would be the statesman, as you have found.

    Has there been any consideration of a sheriff or constable profession that could &#8220;manage&#8221; unfree labor, reducing the probability of escape and generating labor management events?

    Because &#8220;wily&#8221; is a modifier describing the trader&#8217;s personal character rather than his profession. In this era, a traveling merchant was not quite the same thing as a sedentary merchant, and I think that&#8217;s what you&#8217;re trying to get at. Kailric&#8217;s argument is convincing, however. In this case, &#8220;wily&#8221; is a suitable analogy for &#8220;expert.&#8221;

    Ranged skirmishers, casting stone, dart, and javelin, were an important element of many an ancient army right through the fall of Rome. The sling persisted as a favored weapon of Spanish and Portuguese light infantry during the Middle Ages but had otherwise fallen out of use. The javelin was in wider use, especially during the Dark Ages, when it was often used to help break up shield walls.

    Why &#8220;heavy skirmisher&#8221;? Isn&#8217;t that somewhat oxymoronic?

    A swordsman is an individual who possesses a sword. I&#8217;m unaware of any situation in which &#8220;swordsman&#8221; was a type of foot soldier. In practice, levees often employed polearms fashioned from farming elements while professional warriors would carry sword or ax, shield, and spear or lance.

    What&#8217;s the difference between heavy horse and the &#8220;heavy&#8221; knight? Social status?

    I would presume that siege engineers would be required to build siege engines, which would presumably be constructed something like wagons or artillery.

    Rope would seem to be an essential element of most siege engines and, like wood, was not always in sufficient supply.

    The Normans typically trained in a building known as a manège, although &#8220;training ground&#8221; is probably more clear.

    Have you thought about trade routes to Africa, Scandinavia, and the East?
     
  17. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Where else would fat skirmishers go to join the army? :p
    You do have a point though. It's a relic of when the game used altEquipment. I have since replaced that with subprofessions, but nobody really reviewed the profession design after that. The same goes for which techs you need to unlock those professions. If they had to be together before subprofessions was introduced, they are still unlocked by the same tech even though there is no technical reason for that anymore.

    The concept of subprofessions is as follows:
    A profession is added to XML like any other profession.
    This profession can then have an array of subprofessions (any number)
    A subprofession defined this way will read the parent profession and then overwrite with a few altered tags
    Ingame when you pick profession, if you can pick multiple professions (parent and sub or multiple subs), only one line appear. If that one is clicked, a new window appears where you can pick parent or any of the subs.

    In other words, it's ideal for professions, which are nearly identical, but not completely. It's mainly used for identical troops where the only difference is different armor.

    I'm currently rewriting the engine behind techs. The result is that professions can be enabled by civics, techs, traits, eras and other stuff as well. The idea is that each of those provides a score (often 0) and if the combined score is 1 or more, the profession is allowed. By setting the default score to something negative, we can make combos like "requires tech A and tech B" or "requires tech A and era B". It's also possible to give negative score meaning certain professions could be disallowed when you invent something better.

    I think this should be description enough to allow brainstorming on a better military profession setup. If not, then feel free to ask whatever you can think of.


    It's my impression that generally speaking, siege engines were all build on site because they were too big and heavy to be moved. They could be build, taken apart and then put together on site for a speedy construction, but the concept of a trebuchet or similar being build in a city, and then drive around on the roads in an assembled state is historically very incorrect.

    Personally I would prefer if we stick to English names in an English translation. However "correct" names like manège would be ideal to add to the pedia text.
     
  18. Axis Kast

    Axis Kast Chieftain

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    You are absolutely correct about siege engines. I did assume that they were going to be built in cities for the purposes of the game. If that is correct, perhaps it would be possible to build them in such manner that they need to be reassembled, or "deployed," before use. Alternatively, the siege engineer/carpenter could follow the army and simply possess the capability to spend a few turns building his or her engine in the immediate proximity of an enemy city while on the march.
     
  19. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    I think at one point we actually began discussing the whole build/deploy debate with siege engines, we even floated the idea of 'chopping' enemy trees to get a siege engine.

    The whole thing got parked while we build other things and was left for 'when we do the military overhaul' which will be occurring at what ever releases we decide is the 'lets do fighting' release.

    right now I think we are in the 'right lets do winning and talking' stage. Before that it was the 'lets do buying, selling and dragging stuff around' stage.

    It's all very technical staging!

    My point about the units was from a 'technical role' perspective, if your suggestion was just about names, that is cool.

    I was just saying that in terms of what roles we have in gam this is what we have, and with the ranged skirmisher, it was a fact of what role would it fill, what would be the difference in production and what stats would it get, etc.

    When we get to the fighty overhaul, we have also floated the idea of more depth in the ranged attack department as well, so when that comes along there may well be some nuance there that will open up a space for the 'thrown weapon' category of fighting.

    Right now the question is what would it do for the player that a spearman doesn't or an archer wouldn't. What could it be that it's 'shelf life' in game is not so short that it is just not worth the effort as no one will use it because a spearman is easier to make, and an archer is better to upgrade to.

    Heavy Skirmisher is a relative term, rather than an oxymoron (who doesn't love that word?) Stationary Skirmisher or tight skirmisher, would probably be more oxymoronic.

    A heavy skirmisher is just heavier than a regular or light skirmisher.

    The heavy Knight just has more armour than the Knight, both are the same 'status' one just uses more yields and is better.

    What I was pointing out with your unit suggestions, is that in terms of roles we more or less have them all in game already, SO GO PLAY!! :D
     
  20. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    You seem like a man after my own heart, Axis with your thoughts on Reeves, Sheriffs, Stewards that Produce Administration, etc. The Goal of the mod was always to introduce a Medieval Simulation being as close to historically accurate as gaming fun will allow. So, we have considered many of the things you mention. Like in one of the current development branches we have changed Stewards to producing "Administration". By the way, if you are feeling froggy enough you can download the development branches we are working on and test things out yourself and give feedback. Instructions and links are on the download page.

    This perhaps would be an interesting concept and I have thought about sheriffs but not to the point on what their use would be. Again, perhaps Sheriff and Reeve both could be learned at your cities, like natives teach you professions, or the Player could appoint them. We also have YIELD_LAW which could serve to keep unfree labor in check. We would have to introduce a system of "escaping slaves" and perhaps "slaves and serfs that begin to slack off when there isn't enough Law and Administration being produced. It maybe fun, the current slave graphic has a ball and chain attached to his ankle, this could be removed for "Escaping Slaves" :)

    We have a whole Military Expansion planned where we can make adjustments such as these. I started producing a "Combined Arms" mod for Civ4 where your units would gain bonuses from being grouped with certain other complimenting units. I was thinking about the "Shield Wall" here recently, and perhaps if two or more Shield Barring units are grouped they could form a "Shield Wall" thus, gaining Fortified Bonuses faster and or other bonuses. Also, they believe there where Skirmisher types units that, just as you say, worked in unison with Shield Walls, they would sling javelins and even jump out of the wall to attack venerable targets, before melting back into the wall. There are lots of fun stuff we can do there.

    Are you referring to the "Light Skirmisher" as he carries a single sword? Or do we have a Swordsman profession? Being more historically accurate with gear, looks, and tactics is another aim of the Military Expansion.

    We have a Heavy Calvary right (on laptop atm so can't check)? But yeah, Knights are a Social Status, only the "noble" type units can be Knights, which are the most powerful calvary units. Only Feudalism Civic allows Knights I believe.

    I agree with Night and perhaps we can do something here that is fun and also more historically accurate. Siege Engines where Built or Assembled on site. If they were built in a city, they where built so that could be taken apart, carried in wagons, and reassembled where needed. So, perhaps instead of building a "Siege Engine", you build a "Siege Wagon". You then have Engineers that can assemble these Engines on site, and depending on your Techs, you get a menu of what you want to assemble. Perhaps once built their movement could be restricted to one space per turn and require Engineers to move if they move at al. Perhaps they take damage when moved and at some point damage makes the immobile. Anyway, after battles you can dismantle the Siege Engine back into a Siege Wagon for transport. We also talked about Siege Engines not being able to attack out right but rather they Siege, who would of thought of that, a Siege Engine that can only Siege?:p

    Another fine argument for rope yield. Rope could be considered a "Tool" though, but then Blacksmiths didn't make Rope :p

    Terms like manège would be best used for Civ Specific Buildings like in Civ4. Right now we don't have any Civ Specific Buildings, Units, or Professions but this would certainly be a nice addition.

    Yep, we general think of a Yield type that is specific to the route in question. African Gold and Salt, for example. The "East", we have the Spice Route and Silk Road, but we can also have Incense Route and perhaps others. What where the mains yields from a Scandinavian route? Amber was found up and around that area, and has been suggested.
     

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