[MOD] More Naval AI

[Calavente]

reading on what you wrote...
WW on any summons seems strange....even permanent summons.

and the rock paper-cisor is interesting... never thought of it like that. However you noticed non of them are available to good civs .... (save FoL... but FoL is not for REAL GOOD civs... only for tree-huggers hippies)

(oh, and if it is true that skellies/spectres quickly get the buffed +10% or even +20/+30 from the caster, normally, by that time, you should have at least +2 or +5 xp on unit creation.
so your stygian or diseased corps should at least have combat 1 or maybe even combat 2 or combat 1 and shock 1 ... so between +20 and +60 against skellies and specters, not counting city defense or terrain defense !

oh, and stygian guards heal better than other 'counter' units due to march)

so IMO, skellies are only worth it against the AI... but all that is OP against the AI might not be OP in MP... and might even be quite weak (see impersonate leader) or even "Hidden nationality units" ...


further the real issue with spectres is that their natural counter doesn't work (so that you have to rely on stygian guards that are not summons nor spells :

DESTROY UNDEAD kills any Skelly stack... especially as skellis, as "permanent summon" are un-movable on the turn they were invoked.
However this couter doesn't work with spectres. Destroy undead can only kill spectres that were invoked in defense of the caster OR spectre that survived their suicide attack.
(indeed, IIRC, spectres are temporary and can move on the turn they are invoked).


so either spectres can be rendered permanent (+noxp-gain) so they become immobile on first turn
OR
Destroy undead needs a balancing boost :
-destroy nearby undeads (as current)
-give a temporary (1turn) +50% (or+25%) against undead (or against death -unholy?-str) promotion to units in the stack.

my 0.2

 

[Tasunke]

Hmm. I like your idea about the 'destroy undead' promotion ^_^

 

[Calavente]

eh... that would balance spectres ...
but then it might become too cheap a counter.
(1 life mage/priest is enough to counter 10 death mages....)

(at least destroy undead does not destroy per se but do damage.. so you need multiple "destroy undead" casters to kill skellies stacks.

but here I have no idea for the balance :
if 50% is enough to counter spectres... wouldn't it become a very very powerful counter ?
however if it is 10%.. will it be enough to counter spectres that can be summoned and attack simultaneously ?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

No changes are nessecary to life/death 2.
Yes life 2 cant nessecarily destroy spectres (if they are all suicided) but who cares?
This just means you need be less afraid of them defending the stack, as any can be killed, allowing you to focus on "real" units.

Life 2 is only used when you need to anhillate a stack (or harass the skeletons).

 

[Calavente]

I just lost a long page :
in summary :
currently life 2 is situationnal : it is only useful against:
-skellies stacks (youpi a lvl2 spell to counter a lvl 1 spell.... really useful and balanced)
-diseased corpse : never seen in stack. generally there are more issues of RoF spam when you fight against AV....
-Sheaim axes : really useful but so situationnal... and that means that a whole MANA level is devoted to.... kill one civ.

thus, this mana level seems strange : counter 1 CIV and part of 1 religion... whereas Life is supposed to be opposed to death.
so LIFE II should be useful against death II.

IMO, LIFE II was supposed to be the counter that enabled lvl2 "death affinity" spammable units to be bearable instead of OP.

so IMO, "fixing" either Life2 or Death2 (so that life 2 can really be used against some spectres) would present 2 advantages:
-death 2 would not be so OP and death accumulation would not be so much OP and thus this would help balancing death 2.
-life 2 would be more useful.


and further it is logical :
you have a mage that know how to knock undeads (and even spectres) on the head... however, even when he knows there is some guy that summon spectres in front of him... well, he never do anything.. this seems strange... and very contrary to any DnD rules I ever seen.

Such kind of fix could also be used to help alleviate the OPness of AV-RoF super strategy.
either metamagic II or waterII or bodyII could have an additional effect of a giving a 1turn promotion to the stack with 10% 20% or 50% against fire.

 

[Tasunke]

Life 2 gives life shield ... aka 50% death resistance, to entire stack. This would be a separate spell from Destroy undead, imho.

Water 2 gives water shield ... aka 25% fire resistance and 25% cold resistance, to entire stack.

Destroy Undead damages maximum of 95%

Stygian Guards are Undead + Zombie (similar to drown)

Saverous and Lunatics get Possessed, Lunatics keep Crazed. (instead of Saverous being Demon, he is possessed by a demon. Would make sense that demonic possession would be one possible way of turning mental patients and test subjects into raging military beasts. Also, at least in the case of Saverous, this is extremely lore accurate.)

Ship Yards give 'Sealed Hull' promotion to new Ships. This gives 100% cold resistance (cold immune).

Optional-> Ships with Sealed Hull can cast 'give shelter' which gives a shelter promotion to living units in the stack, granting +50% cold resistance.


Saverous: poison immune, 20% death resistance, 20% unholy resistance, +20% cold resistance

Possessed: 50% death resistance, 50% unholy resistance, 20% fire resistance, +20% cold resistance, +1 unholy strength, -25% vs Holy


(So Saverous starts out with Poison immune, 70% death resist, 70% unholy resist, 40% cold resist, 20% fire resist, -25% holy weakness)

Spoiler :

with the old Demon promo, Saverous had Poison Immune, Death Immune, Unholy Immune, and -15% holy weakness.

New demon promo has -50% holy weakness, with the 'demon lord' upgrade giving 25% holy resist for a total of -25% holy weakness.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Ignoring tasunkes crazy ideas: yes life 2 is situational, so is pretty well every spell!
Poisoned blade, dispel magic, water walking, stoneskin (who wants mages to fight?), etc.
Besides, one of the strengths of death 2 is the ability to use the units to cover the stack, hard countered by life 2, allowing the units to be attacked directly.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Saverous is clearly a demon (he is possessed too, but he is a demon nonetheless.

 

[Tasunke]

Saverous is not a demon. He is a man, ex-Doviello.

specifically he was infused with magic runes by the burnt priest which gave him a 'demon possessed' disposition, yet still easily controllable by said priest.

 

[Broken Hawk]

Python Exception(s)

v2.41

Load save and hit enter. Several screens pop up after a naval battle. Happened 3 times in a game I just finished.

Thanks.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I always presumed he was a drowned ex-dovellio...
Magister?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

he was a huge doviello warrior who got captured by the overlords and kept into an asylum until he was basically drafted as a thrall

 

[Calavente]

Ignoring tasunkes crazy ideas: yes life 2 is situational, so is pretty well every spell!
Poisoned blade, dispel magic, water walking, stoneskin (who wants mages to fight?), etc.
Besides, one of the strengths of death 2 is the ability to use the units to cover the stack, hard countered by life 2, allowing the units to be attacked directly.

I disagree. most spells are NOT situational.
they all have useful abilities that are not limited.
destroy undead is already one of the most limited as it targets only undeads, which are few.
And here.. we notice that life II doesn't work completly, as it is unuseable to two of the most noticeable undead units : spectres and death III.

all other spells have a higher rate of use and more general use. (save spirit III, life III ... but those...eh.. even life III is on the line with an already situational spell)

I can list all spells and all their use if you really want... or if you are not convinced ... but I'll prefer not too, I'll just focus on the one you proposed:

poison blade : boost any recon unit : who wouldn't use that ? it is not "boost only shadow assassin / or boost only the elves recon units : 6-7 units OF EACH civilization can be impacted by this spell.

dispel : everybody has a mana node to revert back. further it is a spell I use every time I attack a city or that I defend a city : remove EVERY buffs on them remove EVERY curse on mine..
that is not situationnal... it is not "removes only "bless""

water walking... ah .. that one... noticed I said that water 2 could get an improvement "water shield" ... ? it is quite situational...but not so.
however on every map with water (or even lake) I use it. having un-rushable summoners /caster is wonderful.
I use it most of my games ... but you are right, less than fireII or AirII.
(ever tried amurite waterwalking army ??? fun)

stoneskin.
well... I don't use it much... but I use my mages to fight high odds fights (so +2FS is good) so they get more xp. Further I use stoneskin to protect them against assassins. +2str in defense is quite useful I must say.
(However stoneskin SHOULD make the unit being targeted first among the other mages) otherwise stone
OR, at least, it should work for the whole turn.. instead of "until next combat". so a stoneskin mage can fight multiple times in defense.

contrarily to those : I never use life2 ... ever and I never ugrade into the life line at all (unless I have bronze-tech sheaim in the place). life 1 I get from free promotion.
life 2 is only when fighting sheaim
life3 ... never. I almost never need the resurrection spell ... (only to save 1 unit ? what ? if all "heroes" could be resurrected it might be different; generally, if I get life III, losing my civ hero is sad but not really impacting my overall-strenght)

oh... and I almost never use spectre in defense of my stack...and then it is not for their strength ... only for the "fear" aspect.
but that's a band-aid on a wooden leg... they are way better used in offense

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I always presumed he was a drowned ex-dovellio...
Magister?

Saverous was one of the Tusk Hillsmen, a Doviello from the Pilgante Hills. His clan worshiped Kilmorph instead of Camulos, but they were still fierce barbarian warriors. At almost 9 feet tall, he was large even compared to his tribesmen (who were usually at least 7 ft, and quite stout rather than lanky) much less the Bannor (who had a more normal human stature, rarely much more than 6 ft).

Saverous was captured by the Burnt Priest, who took him to an Asylum to conduct a serious of experiments on him. These experiments broke his mind, but left his body strong. The Burnt Priest eventually lost interest in this particular line of research, and abandoned him. He would have died forgotten, but a war came and the Burnt Priest needed to raise an army. Much of his army consisted of summoned demons. The lesser inmates of the asylum served mostly as sacrificed to placate them. Those with strong bodies were drafted into service, and many of them were drowned. There were also many who were not drowned, including large numbers of Twisted Men who served the Burnt Priest only out of fear and desperation.

A few were made to serve in his legions as Thralls, men who were still alive but whose bodies were completely controlled by violent demonic spirits summoned from Camulos's hell. Possession by such a spirit gives incredible strength and often causes mutations great enough that the host could never pass for human. The demons themselves are nearly mindless, and can be bound to the service of evil priests. As much as the thralls were controlled by demons, the demons who controlled them were controlled by the Burnt Priest himself. He could command them without words, and could see and hear everything they could see or hear. They were his most elite soldiers, with great authority over all the lesser troops.

Saverous was the largest and strongest of the Burnt Priests Thralls for 17 years. His skin was covered with demonic runes, which allowed him to become much stronger still, at least for brief periods. He was a terror on the battlefield, and in the camp. He never interacted with the rest of the legion except when the Burnt Priest needed an enforcer to execute dissenters and put down the disputes uncovered by another thrall, a small twisted man whose thralldom was a secret and who was his master's favorite spy.

When the Burnt Priest was slain by a Bannor legionnaire called Gilganthor of the First Light, Saverous was freed. It is not completely clear whether the demonic spirit itself left his body, but it did not exercise control over him since it could not get orders from its master. Saverous stood motionless on the battlefield, and would have been killed had not Pontiff Elim argued that he was not an enemy but one of the Burnt Priests greatest victims. Elim then spend several months reteaching Saverous basic things like how to feed himself, before Valin Phanuel came seeking to bring him to justice for his crimes. Valin could see that he was repentant, but could still sense a dark presence in him, so he decided to take Saverous to the Bannor city of Alexandria for wiser men to make their decision. The portions of The Tale of Saverous which Kael has released do not continue much past their encounter with Maraphine (a rather evil female Confessor who is rising quickly through the ranks of The Order's hierarchy, and who seemed to be guided by a demon that resembles a feathered serpent), but it seems likely that Saverous becomes Valin's squire and a hero for Good in his own right.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Thanks magustee!
@calevente yes poison blade is situational, as its only used for recon bjfffing, just as SS is only used for defending against assassin etc.
All these are clear niches of their own.
As for life 2 - that's because the so can't handle death summons.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

So=ai obviously.

 

[Tasunke]

Obviously it depends on the type of game you play, and how your opponent plays, but life 2 has limited effectiveness against temporary summons. And these are typically the most common use of the undead.

While it is true that the AI are terrible at dealing with Death summons, they are terrible at dealing with anything. Meanwhile it is the human player that is good at dealing with most things, but typically terrible at dealing with Death summons, and that my friend, is the reason for the buff.

I feel that this would be more self-evident if the AI indeed *could* play more skillfully. For not only would the AI *still* die to death summons, but they would also readily kill you with them.

---------

For the record, I do not consider my 'life shield' idea to be OP, but a proper balance. If you invest in life 2 mages, you can partially counter death 2/ death 3 mages by making their affinity at half effectiveness.

 

[Broken Hawk]

Saverous was one of the Tusk Hillsmen, a Doviello from the Pilgante Hills. His clan worshiped Kilmorph instead of Camulos, but they were still fierce barbarian warriors. At almost 9 feet tall, he was large even compared to his tribesmen (who were usually at least 7 ft, and quite stout rather than lanky) much less the Bannor (who had a more normal human stature, rarely much more than 6 ft).

Saverous was captured by the Burnt Priest, who took him to an Asylum to conduct a serious of experiments on him. These experiments broke his mind, but left his body strong. The Burnt Priest eventually lost interest in this particular line of research, and abandoned him. He would have died forgotten, but a war came and the Burnt Priest needed to raise an army. Much of his army consisted of summoned demons. The lesser inmates of the asylum served mostly as sacrificed to placate them. Those with strong bodies were drafted into service, and many of them were drowned. There were also many who were not drowned, including large numbers of Twisted Men who served the Burnt Priest only out of fear and desperation.

A few were made to serve in his legions as Thralls, men who were still alive but whose bodies were completely controlled by violent demonic spirits summoned from Camulos's hell. Possession by such a spirit gives incredible strength and often causes mutations great enough that the host could never pass for human. The demons themselves are nearly mindless, and can be bound to the service of evil priests. As much as the thralls were controlled by demons, the demons who controlled them were controlled by the Burnt Priest himself. He could command them without words, and could see and hear everything they could see or hear. They were his most elite soldiers, with great authority over all the lesser troops.

Saverous was the largest and strongest of the Burnt Priests Thralls for 17 years. His skin was covered with demonic runes, which allowed him to become much stronger still, at least for brief periods. He was a terror on the battlefield, and in the camp. He never interacted with the rest of the legion except when the Burnt Priest needed an enforcer to execute dissenters and put down the disputes uncovered by another thrall, a small twisted man whose thralldom was a secret and who was his master's favorite spy.

When the Burnt Priest was slain by a Bannor legionnaire called Gilganthor of the First Light, Saverous was freed. It is not completely clear whether the demonic spirit itself left his body, but it did not exercise control over him since it could not get orders from its master. Saverous stood motionless on the battlefield, and would have been killed had not Pontiff Elim argued that he was not an enemy but one of the Burnt Priests greatest victims. Elim then spend several months reteaching Saverous basic things like how to feed himself, before Valin Phanuel came seeking to bring him to justice for his crimes. Valin could see that he was repentant, but could still sense a dark presence in him, so he decided to take Saverous to the Bannor city of Alexandria for wiser men to make their decision. The portions of The Tale of Saverous which Kael has released do not continue much past their encounter with Maraphine (a rather evil female Confessor who is rising quickly through the ranks of The Order's hierarchy, and who seemed to be guided by a demon that resembles a feathered serpent), but it seems likely that Saverous becomes Valin's squire and a hero for Good in his own right.

Pretty cool Magister. Thank you.

 

[Calavente]

Thanks magustee!
@calevente yes poison blade is situational, as its only used for recon bjfffing, just as SS is only used for defending against assassin etc.
All these are clear niches of their own.
As for life 2 - that's because the so can't handle death summons.

As explained I disagree.
poison blade is for all recon of all civ (6 unit_type + recon heroes ; all civs)

ss is for all mage of all civ and can be used in attack and defense, against assassin or not. (3 unit_type counting druids + most amurite units + mage heroes) + it is a buff to the mage itself, helping him combat. That you don't combat with mage is your problem, combat in itself is frequent enough that a spell boosting combat is not "situational".
IMO earth 2 is not taken much and cast much not because it is situationnal... but because most of the time you have better spells.

it is the contrary of life 2.
earth2 is versatile and strong... but not needed much as there is always something better to do... and protection can be done otherwise. and YOU decide if and when it will be useful.

life 2 is very needed.. but can't be used when you need it most as it is not versatile and very situationnal.
... and in most case YOU CANNOT decide when it will be useful... you need to wait for the ENNEMY to kill you with spectres and then.. you'll be able to mop-up the spectres that didn't die using your spell.. <sarcasme> great </sarcasme>.
or you'll need to wait for the ennemy to use spectres in defense (so you wait for an ennemy to do something stupid... <sarcasme> great </sarcasme>.

Life 2 is situational because it can really be used only against 3 UNITS (not unit_TYPE, but UNIT, 1 being a UU of a civ, 1 being a level 1summon (with a lvl2spell), and the last being a unit from a religion, which can't be built if you are not of this religion, this unit being almost never used ; well, add 1 unit_type if you count Lich... which I never seen ... I've seen more dragons in game than liches, save my own)

in conclusion : a situational buff is one thing ... a situational attack is another

Using YOUR way of explaining I could say that spectres are situationnal as they are worth it ONLY if you have an ennemy civ nearby AND that you could get enough death mana node.
well, you need to get mages to level 4 too... maybe even level 5 if you didn't get death 1 before.
oh... and it's situationnal... you see, the defending ennemy would have to not have eilodon or stygian guards, or magic immune (dragons...) or unholy protection...

don't you see that it's so wrong.

 

[Tasunke]

What do you think about life shield