[MOD] Realism:The Third Resurrection

[Nightravn]

Houman- Yes the America's do have a very diverse nature, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that the section I am talking about in basically uninhabitable. Where in reality there are 10's of millions of people living in the area of Nevada,Arizona,New Mexico and northern Mexico. I am not saying it needs to be change drastically but I believe one or two food resources/floodplains are in order to make the land useful.

Also I believe the northern mountain range needs to be tweak just a hair as there are some areas that you can not get to and in order to get to Alaska you have to go all the way around in front of the rockies to the northern part of Canada and that is very unrealistic.

I am not talking major changes here just one or two little tweaks to make the area more realistic and playable. I am going to make a few modification and I will post the map to see what everyone thinks. I am by all means Not trying to make North America unbalanced. As for the warriors guarding goody huts well it takes one aspect of the Scouts abilities away from them. Remember there is always a chance that the villagers will be hostile and spawn a warrior so maybe that chance can be tweaked up a bit.

I agree with Blue that the Barbarians are too weak to start with and were a Push over for both me and Monty. They definitely need to be a little stronger. Once there are animals that might also help the situation a little. BTW in game it is around 500bc and Monty no longer exists and I control all of central and north America. I have My armies posed to take S. America and I just met the Japanese. Life in My America is Good!!

 

[Lachlan]

Yes, anti-rush unit, 5 Power 0 Movement, 1 "Militia" in each capital
==> 18 militias in the 18 capitals of the World

This unit should be an early Machigunner unit type with no movement

In "Rhye's of Civilizations Expanded" Civ3 Mod this system was adopted successfully .

 

[jeffdawgfan]

Well, I felt guilty for the AI. As stated before I was playing the Spanish. I founded Christianity and got the Crusader unit. I would definately reduce this unit strength to 8. By 520 AD I had taken all of Europe and Africa except for the jungles of the Congo where Cleo and Mansa were hiding out. Just when the other civs had started getting Maceman to slow down the crusaders I got the Conquestador and the game was turning into a route. I have notice that the game actually spe up as i went. I am positive that the inital slowdown was due to all the Barbs....which is ok I guess as it balances the game. Whoa be to those with marginal systems though.

Houman...comments before I try a different civ

Why when Caravels appear can we no longer build galleys? That is ok but if we eliminate the galley then the caravel needs to have two cargo space since they were at least as big as the galleys were.

Caravels can no longer enter other civs territorial waters without open borders. I LIKE THIS CHANGE!!!..Always hated enemy snoopy around my ports. If galleys cant enter neither should caravels. Suggestion though.
Make the privateer a true privateer. Eliminate their cargo capacity and let them enter all waters. Is there a way to make them "un-flagged" so that they can attack at will without revealing nationality or starting a war???

English flag is balck and white while barbs is blue and white??? Black cross of St George?

Finally....comment on religions. Why don't the Aztecs/Inca's have a religion based on ....Quazecoatal (not sure of that spelling) but Inca's/Aztec/Mayans all had a religion that was bloody but worked for them. I have not used and Inqusiator because on the Noble level I scarfed all the religions for myself. i liek the income form the holy sites!!!

I would like to see the regiment mod added for eye candy.

My opinion so far........The best mod to date!!! You have done some good work and really thoughtnsome things out. My next game I will take to modern times on a harder level and see how things work there. Up to time of gunpowder it works well though.

PS....For my two cents worth i like North america as it is. If you have ever driven thought the south west it is noting but mountains and wasteland except on the rivers and the irrigated areas.

 

[jeffdawgfan]

Pardon my spelling on previous post guys. I just had knee surgery on both knees a few days ago and pain meds make my fingers fumble.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Finally....comment on religions. Why don't the Aztecs/Inca's have a religion based on ....Quazecoatal (not sure of that spelling) but Inca's/Aztec/Mayans all had a religion that was bloody but worked for them. I have not used and Inqusiator because on the Noble level I scarfed all the religions for myself. i liek the income form the holy sites!!!

Well, Quetzalcoatl was really only an Aztec divinity. Although I agree that it would be nice to give S. America some religion, certainly the Maya, Andean peoples (Inca), and the Aztec had rather different religions, and while there was some syncretism, each group was clearly distinct. I, for one, would be interested in S. American religions, but I think one would have to be made for each group (excluding the Maya, who are not in the game). Also, it could potentially unbalance N. America. America doesn't start with a religion, and would be forced to adopt one of the S. American religions, which wouldn't seem to have any historical mirror.

 

[Lachlan]

Yes, anti-rush unit, 5 Power 0 Movement, 1 "Militia" in each capital
==> 18 militias in the 18 capitals of the World

This unit should be an early Machigunner unit type with no movement

In "Rhye's of Civilizations Expanded" Civ3 Mod this system was adopted successfully .

Sorry but anybody has made a question to this subject

 

[Nightravn]

PS....For my two cents worth i like North america as it is. If you have ever driven thought the south west it is noting but mountains and wasteland except on the rivers and the irrigated areas.

I have driven through that part of the States(from Florida to Oregon actually) and you are very much correct in that it is pretty much desolate except along rivers and such which is exactly my point about having a "couple" of flood plains/food resources along the river there. That area contains millions of people so it is something that needs addressing.

That area is also KNOWN for the floods it gets during the monsoon season. This is taken from Wikipedia about the US....

"The Southwest and the Great Basin are also affected by the monsoon from the Gulf of California from July-September, which brings localized but often severe thunderstorms to the region."......... and

"Localized flooding can, however, occur anywhere, and mudslides from heavy rain can cause problems in any mountainous area, particularly the Southwest. Large stretches of desert shrub in the west can fuel the spread of wildfires. The narrow canyons of many mountain areas in the west and severe thunderstorm activity during the monsoon season in summer leads to sometimes devastating flash floods as well"

Anyways this is IMHO so take it for what it is worth....

 

[Houman]

1) Mathematics description is incorrect (I think), it says it gives +15% withdrawl, +10% strength, -10% defense on all terrains

Which promotion does that?

2)Playing as the Great Kahn, I realized my aggressive bonus wasn't applying to my cavalry. My Keshiks start out more poorly trained than foot soldiers. Imho, the aggressive bonus should be broadened, at the very least to cavalry.

Good point. I have to check this out.

3)On a ~realism~ note; I got Buddhism with literature, but wasn't required to have meditation. Is it a balance thing? Because, as we all know, if this is to try and emulate reality moreso, then Buddhism should definately be linked to meditation as well (at least as a pre-req, anyway).

The reason behind that is Abbamouse Mod. He did a very good job on the time table, when a religion was discovered.

Spoiler :

5. NEW IN VERSION 1.6 The technology tree has been slightly altered. While it looks like there are many changes, most of them are simply the result of switching Monotheism and Meditation around to give a more realistic chronology to the emergence of religion. Basically, Hinduism, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism should emerge early in the game, followed by Buddhism and Taoism a bit later, and then finally Christianity and Islam. This better reflects history than Buddhism being the first religion founded every game. I also tried to prevent "knowledge" of another faith's founding tech from being necessary to found a religion that didn't actually interact with or follow from the earlier faith -- there's no reason a civ should have to "discover Hinduism" first in order to found Judaism. Here is the detailed list of changes:

I. To make it more likely for Hinduism to emerge first, Polytheism's cost has been lowered to 80 instead of 100.
II. Monotheism and Meditation swapped places on the tech tree, which means:

A. Monotheism: Now leads to Priesthood and Meditation. Does not start a religion or enable any civics.
B. Meditation: Now leads to Philosophy and Monarchy. Founds Zoroastrianism.

III. Some of the functions of Monotheism were shifted to Priesthood -- it now founds Judaism and leads to Monarchy, Code of Laws, and Theology. It also enables the Organized Religion civic.
IV. Buddhism is now founded with Literature.
V. Code of Laws no longer founds a religion.

He is trying to make religions independent from each other. But connecting Meditation and Buddism wouldn't hurt the realism. Since Zoroastrianism, that comes into the game with meditation, has influenced the northern Buddhism historically. I will think about it.

4)When I went to research monotheism it said it gives no bonuses. Does it still grant Judaism? Seems like an oddball, as it seems most techs allow you some new ability or actually help you in some way.

See above.

5)I noticed the Cataphract gets a 30% bonus against commandos...Commandos??? Is this right?

Yeah..they hate Commandos. No it is a bug. I don't know yet why. The XML file says Catapult and Trebuchet. I don't know why it is understood as COmmando.

6)The barbs are just great! I love this map. I saw my first barb stack, an actual stack (5 chariots, 1 warrior, 1 archer) invading China. Awesome
N. American barbs seem to get crushed quick, quick compared to S. America, Africa, and Asia (in my experience).

You are right. I will address this issue.

7)Issy is grabbing both Hinduism and Judaism consistently. I know she's a religious hog, but is there any way to part those two techs a bit more, to give some other player a chance?

Is Issy Isabel? Hmmm, well we cannot force AI to do things. The problem is again the time when a religion has occured historically. See above..I will see what I can do...

8)A Tibetan warrior killed my peaceful scout! That's just not right...pacifists, I think not

In this game they have realized that being pacifist means loosing your country. Finally they got it.

9)Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the attack bonus promotion (+% attack, -% defense across all terrain types) is not accurately mirrored by the defense promotion. The defense promotion gives you a +% defense across all terrain types, but no -% for attack. If there was some balance consideration here, sorry for bring it up; but if not, then the attack and defense promotions should probably be mirror opposites, so easy defense promotions aren't favored.

Point is valid. I will fix that.

Anyway, just grabbed Buddhism (it's on the way to Taoism) and getting ready to try my first inquisition. Here's to it

Good let me know please.

Oh, and about the pillaged gold, if I remember right (been a while since I played vanilla ) this mod gives one much more gold than one would otherwise get. It does allow one to keep science cranked, but from my point of view, it seems to be a good thing. The small amount of gold one used to get was too small to even upgrade 1 unit. That never made sense to me; I sack a city and can't even get enough loot to upgrade 1 unit? So, I see the increased loot as a good thing. A reward for successfully warring; and as you semi-alluded too, it could be seen as a balance for all those burnt buildings.

I was thinking the same thing. These two issues balance out each other., which is nice.

Anyway, wooh. Glad I got that off my chest Great work Houman! Sorry to hear about you being sick, but the mongol hordes will not tolerate delay! Forward! Burn and move, burn and...well, you know .

hehe The mongols will get a new unique Horse Archer. You will love it even more.

Have fun
Houman

 

[Houman]

@Nightravn
@Jeff

No problem I will add few flood plains to that part of USA. I have no idea about it, I never been there. All I know about USA from own experience is Wisconsin and a bit of Illinois and Iowa.

I will make the barbs in North Amrica defitely stronger + Animals.

@Lachlan,

The problem with fixed units is that from a strategically point of view, you might like to build your capitol somewhere else. One way to address this problem would be to include an Archer. Archers are very tough in Cities and provide the perfect defensive. So rushing would be useless.

@Jeff
@Perfect Blue

A new religion? wow well, even I would love to include another religion, but it is tough as hell to do that. Takes a lot of time...I might consider this for the future.

@Jeff, hope you feel better soon. I know how you feel, I had two hernia surgeries 2 years ago. The worst thing for me was the lonelyness. I hope you are married and have some kids around.

BTW I will fix the crusader. Caravels will get more cargo. I will try to extend the Provateer a bit. Let see what can be done...

The colors are all wrong due a mismatch between the fixed colors in Map file and new historical mod. WIll be fixed!

@All
The update is going great. I have added the second Unique Units successfully. Right now it is alot of pain to balance them out and include them in to our Mod. I have also balaced out the Tanks etc. I have ironed out both religious symbols from the Teuton Knight and Persian Knight.

Rabbit, White has done an excellent work and finished the real Immortal Unit for the Persians that will be a footsoldier from now.

The Unit balancing will still go on. I have also to reskin the Mausolom Wonder.

Regards
Houman

 

[Perfect_Blue]

The problem with fixed units is that from a strategically point of view, you might like to build your capitol somewhere else. One way to address this problem would be to include an Archer. Archers are very tough in Cities and provide the perfect defensive. So rushing would be useless.

Hmm, this might (possibly) nerf the Inca, Mali, and Aztecs. What good are those early (and arguably weaker) UU's if you can't use them to rush? Building an archer only takes a few turns anyway. Besides, haven't the warriors gotten a city defense bonus? How many anti-rush balances are appropriate?
Personally, I feel the current system is working fine. You can stop an early rush, you just have to invest a couple more turns in units; that's part of the point of decision making in this game, buildings or units, what do you need?

Anyway; again, awesome work Houman. You're a machine. You make the Horde proud I'm am very eagerly awaiting the second UU expansion!

 

[AvianAvenger]

@Avian
Interesting...I have no idea though where it could be found. If I find it by chance I will let you know...btw is it possible to zoom in the city? Sorry for the dumb question, I never really played the game yet.

When you zoom in with the mouse wheel they start to play the civ's theme music (the music that came on the extra cd, i think). Rather than that boring background noise.

Should take some time off and play till your eye's bleed... then you can go back to work feeling good.

Dont you just hate time barrier's?? Its the 17th here.. hehe, I WANT THE NEW VERSION DAMMIT.

 

[ToV]

I like this, however, I have to disagree on one thing: UNIVERSAL SUFFERAGE does not give war wariness. FREE SPEECH does! It is free speech that increases war wariness. (I suggest +50% for free speech). We got through World War I and II without protesters! The system of electing officials to govern does not, by itself, cause war wariness. CIV III was dead wrong. lease changes this.

 

[zagaz]

Great MOD! I just have a general question about maps. How does one start a game with the world map, is it through load a scenario? Also, which map does one use? I have seen quite a few world maps in the Pre Made Maps. This goes for other MODS out there with custom maps either created by the modder for the specific mod or used because of it's accuracy and depth(i.e. The Ancient Med)

Keep up the great work, to all Moders, you guys have rekindled my interest in Civ 4, I had played vanilla and had moved onto other games but your creativity, hard work and inspiration have brought me back to the game and I really appreciate how you can make the game so much more interesting and once again fun to play.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

I like this, however, I have to disagree on one thing: UNIVERSAL SUFFERAGE does not give war wariness. FREE SPEECH does! It is free speech that increases war wariness. (I suggest +50% for free speech). We got through World War I and II without protesters! The system of electing officials to govern does not, by itself, cause war wariness. CIV III was dead wrong. lease changes this.

WWI and WWII both had protest movements associated with them (I assume you're speaking of America, of course). Its just that instead of letting people march, or putting them in 'freedom pens' they were simply called traitors and arrested.

 

[Nightravn]

Houman- I went a head and did a few changes to the map like I was talking about. I added a couple of floodplains, tweaked the northern mountains, threw a few deer in tundra area of Canada and a couple of fishies. I also added a another warrior and archer to the Native American's.

I restarted to see how the changes would work and so far the Barbs are doing much better and didn't fall to Monty's early rush. It took several axeman from me to take them out. Of course Monty is predictable and Declared on me again but has been pretty ineffectual with his archers against my axeman. The barbs are making northern cities left and right so I am contending with them. I am trying to consolidate the north before taking on Monty.

Something I think we should look at is the city placement restriction which is now 3 instead of 2... that doesn't effect the Armericas or Africa much but it does the Europeans countries as Spain only as one city and most of the others only a couple. It might be something at least with the earth map that needs to be changed back to the original.

I am including the world save which the changes I made. I only did them in north America with the exception of removing the barb warrior from the goody huts which by the way didn't make much difference and barbs would spawn in and go stand on them anyways.

 

[Orion66]

Hi

So we have 17th of March

Can we get the mod today guys ?

 

[Houman]

@NightRaven,

May you please apply those changes to the new version of the map 1.4.1:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119752&d=1142450011

That would be very helpful and would speed up the release.
Thanks
Houman

BTW: DOn't worry about the Barbarians, I still have to add them here as well as other stuff. Just do the terrain changes please. Cheers

 

[israfil]

I like this, however, I have to disagree on one thing: UNIVERSAL SUFFERAGE does not give war wariness. FREE SPEECH does! It is free speech that increases war wariness. (I suggest +50% for free speech). We got through World War I and II without protesters! The system of electing officials to govern does not, by itself, cause war wariness. CIV III was dead wrong. lease changes this.

I certainly agree. I would suggest that universal sufferage adds overall productivity and economic activity, and have nothing particular to do with war.

- Israfil.

 

[israfil]

That's a good idea but i think it would be a little unrealistic, it would be better just to make it more unlikely to happen. (im still playing v0.64 so... that might already be done)

This is unrealated to the topic but is there a way to mod the city music so that you can still hear it when your zoomed out further? What file should i be looking in for this?

I agree that one religion per civ is unrealistic. Buddhism was founded in India in a Hindu culture. Christianity was founded in a Jewish nation (though under Roman occupation). The fact that these religions are connected means that these religions are bound to be founded by the same or related people.

I agree with making a bit harder to do, for game balance, but historical accuracy would increase the likelihood that related religions are founded by the same (or descendent) civlizations. mind you, historical accuracy would have Arabia having a much higher likelihood of founding Islam, Persians; Zorastrianism, Indians Hinduism/Buddhism, etc. So here game balance and playability should probably trump historical accuracy.

Israfil.

 

[Houman]

Wanted to know you guys I am working without break on the Unitbalancing. Adding one unit can be some amout of work but adding 19 new Units, is huge amount of work.

Meanwhile I am also adjusting the AI toward the Units. It is important that AI understand the importance of certain Units. In that case, it will strive to building them or avoid wars with others who have those units. It will add a lot more of realism.

STay tuned...